120-60-300-120-60-177.2 Nutrient Tutorial, or, My Thread Can Beat Up Your Thread.

[Capulator]

I'll say this though how pure are the minerals making up this mix......cause if p is an issue calculate the chlorine released from all the salts....it might already be detrimental.......

Chlorine? please elaborate.

 

[Dirty White Boy]

I'm only a biology major...however certain types of P are detrimental becaae of chlorine released during composition at certain ppms levels. What I'm sayiing is a lot of salts release chlorine during composition so why not address it in their bottomline.

 

[Capulator]

I'm only a biology major...however certain types of P are detrimental becaae of chlorine released during composition at certain ppms levels. What I'm sayiing is a lot of salts release chlorine during composition so why not address it in their bottomline.

I need an example. I am not doubting your educational level or back ground. I am just curious how a P salt (MKP,MAP, etc) releases chlorine.

 

[Capulator]

Here is a little something to put in to all of your notes:



@DW: pay special attention to page 28, where this paper addresses the proper Fe:Mn ratio.

I am feeling that DTW is ultimately the best way to grow plants. I believe you can go to extremely low PPMs by using this method, coupled with an inert media like rockwool, glass beads, perlite, etc. . The answer is in this paper if you pay special attention to "soil solution", meaning the water flowing aroudn the roots containing ions that have been released via micro organisms, reactions with the soil, etc.

Hydroponics: plants sitting in nute solution (aka the equivalent of soil solution) with all of the necessary ions readily available (we hope).

In any recirculating system, the plants will remove ions from the solution, which will create imbalance. A hobby grower by no means has the equipment to monitor ions in their water. Therefore, it is a guessing game, and most of the time one will see a toxicity or deficiency somewhere in the lifespan of the crop.

By incorporating a drain to waste system, the plant has access to the same solution content at every watering. Whatever the plant does not grab, goes down the drain. It is the difference between eating, shitting, and eating your own shit again, and having a new, freshly prepared meal. You will not be getting the same nutrients, because you already processed it the first time around.

Note this paper on page 20 when referring to the amount of P in soil solution:

"Concentrations in soil solution range from less than 0.1 to around 5 ppm".
What I gather from this is that a constant supply of 5 ppm of P on a slow drip should be more than adequate.

Anyway. you all should chew on this for a while. Have a good night.

-CAp

 

[dankworth]

Goddamn you are a scholar and a gentleman Cap. Thanks for doing the work to find that. I will have to read further, but it sounds initially like it corroborates many of my beliefs.
You think we can really get away with such low P proportionally?
I bet we could drop it a bunch.
I am curious about what that would do to flower structure and density.
Got me thinking.
Now I have to read that whole thing, huh.

My hater buckets will take the fuck over. It's just a matter of time.
Reliability and performance,
at the same time.
http://t3.invalid.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEj0mFB6akDA9pfruGlXIzq7mlXOXQbBMn7X4uEOhliKUri2M6

 

[Capulator]

Wait until you see my new idea.

I call it C.H.U.B.B

I will be converting next round.

food for thought:

fatman dilutes his recipe to 1:100 ratio for injection DTW> so I am pretty sure you can get away with it.

 

[dankworth]

Jk wasn't god ya know......

This is true.
I copied JK's values because he explained why his ratio was the way it was, and how it should be adapted for dtw chow. And I run dtw chow.
I wanted a road map to follow that had a high likelihood of being fairly optimized.
I strive to find a successful formula to copy when first entering a field.
I bring his name up a lot so others can go find the information themselves by looking up his posts, like I did. I like to leave clues so others can find the same data I did.
I also bring up Fatman, same reason, so others can look at the info he presented and reach their own conclusions.

Wait until you see my new idea.

I call it C.H.U.B.B

I will be converting next round.

food for thought:

fatman dilutes his recipe to 1:100 ratio for injection DTW> so I am pretty sure you can get away with it.

Cannibalistic humanoid underground bubble bucket? WTF?
Like the 80s movie?
http://t3.invalid.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7o-p-FSWivHAaPjpjCBorX3sU8QBNcc2sS73gKtFKRGwUVA5-

 

[ttystikk]

Wait until you see my new idea.

I call it C.H.U.B.B

I will be converting next round.

food for thought:

fatman dilutes his recipe to 1:100 ratio for injection DTW> so I am pretty sure you can get away with it.

Sure as hell, Cap's talkin' about his new tool again... :rolleyes:

 

[dankworth]

Here is a little something to put in to all of your notes:



@DW: pay special attention to page 28, where this paper addresses the proper Fe:Mn ratio.

I am feeling that DTW is ultimately the best way to grow plants. I believe you can go to extremely low PPMs by using this method, coupled with an inert media like rockwool, glass beads, perlite, etc. . The answer is in this paper if you pay special attention to "soil solution", meaning the water flowing aroudn the roots containing ions that have been released via micro organisms, reactions with the soil, etc.

Hydroponics: plants sitting in nute solution (aka the equivalent of soil solution) with all of the necessary ions readily available (we hope).

In any recirculating system, the plants will remove ions from the solution, which will create imbalance. A hobby grower by no means has the equipment to monitor ions in their water. Therefore, it is a guessing game, and most of the time one will see a toxicity or deficiency somewhere in the lifespan of the crop.

By incorporating a drain to waste system, the plant has access to the same solution content at every watering. Whatever the plant does not grab, goes down the drain. It is the difference between eating, shitting, and eating your own shit again, and having a new, freshly prepared meal. You will not be getting the same nutrients, because you already processed it the first time around.

Note this paper on page 20 when referring to the amount of P in soil solution:

"Concentrations in soil solution range from less than 0.1 to around 5 ppm".
What I gather from this is that a constant supply of 5 ppm of P on a slow drip should be more than adequate.

Anyway. you all should chew on this for a while. Have a good night.

-CAp

Cap, your remarks remind me of a fucked up movie I could not watch.
Dude it's fucked up. Don't watch it. Serious. Especially if you are not feeling well.
http://t1.invalid.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTO0SEVB32-7AT70iO5sqFi1FBieAD_bEk7uLCmwEHTZHbQOXOg

Jk wasn't god ya know......

How would you change the ratio I copied from JK, and for what reasons? What medium would it be for?
The first change I would consider making is to change the N:Ca value. Maybe as high as 150 ppms Ca for 120 ppms N.
Frequently I see values of Ca up to 20% over N values.
JK's values match, but he applied a foliar spray with 25 ppms Ca I think to compensate.
Yosemite Sam bumped his Ca to N ratio up I noticed.
Though Ca has a very direct bearing on disease resistance, from what I read, and with my chemo x og kush botrytis is a real concern, given the huge floral clusters on the way.
But Ca also has been said to inhibit essential oil production if too high of a value is carried too late into flowering.
There are of course Ca sources besides Ca nitrate that I really should be choosing from to get that extra 20% or so of Ca that I would like to see.

 

[Resinable]

Yosemite Sam's values)

CaNO3
KNO3
MKP
MgSO4
Metolasate amino complexed K
a micro mix

exact mix depends on where the plants are in their life cycle

peak mix is, in ppms

125-90-300-150-50 N-P-K-Ca-Mg

avg might be 100-50-200-100-50

(edit-this corresponds closely w/JK's values I have been copying)

Not to beat a dead horse but what is the source for the above? Because as I posted previously his YS's latest elemental ratio's are: N-P-K-Ca-Mg at 100-75-75-110-40

Am I missing something? Is that 125-90-300-150-50 from an older formula he used?

Or is that from when he is tweaking it in the latter half of flower?

 

[dankworth]

Not to beat a dead horse but what is the source for the above? Because as I posted previously his YS's latest elemental ratio's are: N-P-K-Ca-Mg at 100-75-75-110-40

Am I missing something? Is that 125-90-300-150-50 from an older formula he used?

Or is that from when he is tweaking it in the latter half of flower?

I can't remember exactly how I got there, but this was in --mag, maybe from 09?
I copied and pasted that info.

Holy shit would I never ever run that N:K ratio.
That might work for tiny-ass plants in 100% coco.
Maybe.

 

[deep buddy]

Goddamn you are a scholar and a gentleman Cap. Thanks for doing the work to find that. I will have to read further, but it sounds initially like it corroborates many of my beliefs.
You think we can really get away with such low P proportionally?
I bet we could drop it a bunch.
I am curious about what that would do to flower structure and density.
Got me thinking.
Now I have to read that whole thing, huh.

My hater buckets will take the fuck over. It's just a matter of time.
Reliability and performance,
at the same time.
http://t3.invalid.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEj0mFB6akDA9pfruGlXIzq7mlXOXQbBMn7X4uEOhliKUri2M6

i am also of the mind to drop the p down. and im sure stucture might be a bit different but i really dont think any negative effects will be seen. imvho

 

[drknockbootz]

I was wondering the guys running low P. Are you hitting the same yields or better running low P throughout flowering. Or do you feel the need to add a bloom booster. Im kind of stuck between the two.

 

[Capulator]

My P is around 28 ppm in veg and I bump to about 40 in flower. Last night I changed a res and a new formula, bumping it to 60 in week 6.

I have not gone over 60 in quite sometime and have gotten the best yields yet.

Ca as a foliar is criticial as it is pretty immobile in the plant. i am running 150 ppm Ca now. It is either 1:1 with N or a little higher. I also foliar 1x per week with Ca25.

 

[Capulator]

Not to beat a dead horse but what is the source for the above? Because as I posted previously his YS's latest elemental ratio's are: N-P-K-Ca-Mg at 100-75-75-110-40

Am I missing something? Is that 125-90-300-150-50 from an older formula he used?

Or is that from when he is tweaking it in the latter half of flower?

I think the K there is supposed to be 175, not 75... which woudl be in line with the 1:1.75 he is so fond of.

 

[deep buddy]

I was wondering the guys running low P. Are you hitting the same yields or better running low P throughout flowering. Or do you feel the need to add a bloom booster. Im kind of stuck between the two.

no like cap yeilds are as good or better for everyone i know doing lower P

 

[ttystikk]

no like cap yeilds are as good or better for everyone i know doing lower P

Looking on the label of a P flower booster formula I have laying around, it says 'P is good for roots, flowers, yield and vitamin content.'

I just wonder how much a plant really needs. It seems to want more calcium than P.

 

[Capulator]

If you read the paper I linked it talks about most soil solutions having a P range of 2.5-5ppm. That is what is available to the plant. 5ppm. It may constantly be replaced by the soil, but at any given time if it has 2.5 to 5ppm, and as long as the soil itself has P that can be released in to the solution, then the plant woudl have unlimited P to draw from, and it woudl take what it needs.

 

[Capulator]

Thats why I like the idea of a 12 hour drip (lights on drip) with low ppms. Match the peak soil solution and feed that fresh all the time. My assumption is you would never see any toxicities or deficiencies. The plant would take what it needs, and if you provided the right ratios, you could somewhat control that and tailor to veg state, flower, and ripening.

 

[dankworth]

Thats why I like the idea of a 12 hour drip (lights on drip) with low ppms. Match the peak soil solution and feed that fresh all the time. My assumption is you would never see any toxicities or deficiencies. The plant would take what it needs, and if you provided the right ratios, you could somewhat control that and tailor to veg state, flower, and ripening.

Someone was kind enough to point out in a pm to me last night that they used P primarily for root development. I had read that before, but had never really delved too deeply into that. Needless to say have not varied P levels and checked roots for response.
I like Cap's ideas about the constant drip and P levels, levels of all nutes for that matter. Why I like chow mix. You can give it a small irrigation, and watch it slowly drip drip drip out the bottom in an even, measured pace, halfass gravity fed nft. Coco/perlite does not do this nearly as well.
I have heard of soil's inability to hold on to any meaningful amount of P. I sincerely hope we can drastically reduce our P levels under what ppms many run.
Eventually we can hook the plant up to a galvanometer like the dude in Secret Life of Plants, and the plant can thereby control the nutrient doser with changes in leaf surface electrical conductivity.
The Russians already did this a long time ago with plants self-governing irrigation timing.

Looking on the label of a P flower booster formula I have laying around, it says 'P is good for roots, flowers, yield and vitamin content.'

I just wonder how much a plant really needs. It seems to want more calcium than P.

For sure, it wants way more Ca than P.

Not to beat a dead horse but what is the source for the above? Because as I posted previously his YS's latest elemental ratio's are: N-P-K-Ca-Mg at 100-75-75-110-40

Am I missing something? Is that 125-90-300-150-50 from an older formula he used?

Or is that from when he is tweaking it in the latter half of flower?

Those values look close to JK's proposed values. JK started off with 120-60-280-120-60 I think he said (for his recirc), then bumped P in wk 2(or 3) to further trigger flowering, and bumped P to 90 late flower, and K to 320 maybe(if I recall correctly) also in late flowering. And YS's Ca values being a little higher than his N values are something I would have been inclined to try.
Looks like YS and JK prefer similar nute ratios, I will be right in there with my values, copying theirs seems to work out well.
But if we could keep that all the same, and drastically drop P, and optimize micros, and put them on a relatively constant drip, or something that approximated that, then we could get the greatest health with the least input cost.
All these guys have the right ideas regarding Ca foliars.(and K silicate foliars too)
More weed, better weed, lower cost.