Autoflower Breeding 101

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Seraphim19

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Hey guys

I wanted a place to discuss the finer points of breeding auto flowering plants and give everyone the opportunity to share their knowledge and experience.

Some topics I hope to talk about in this thread are genetics and how they are passed on, selective breeding, backcrossing, self crossing, stabilising a strain, punnet squares, etc...

If you guys have any questions or would like to share some knowledge feel free to jump right in!
 
3N1GM4

3N1GM4

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How do you breed auto strains, stress one to hermie and use nanner pollen? I thought all autos were fem.
 
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Seraphim19

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How do you breed auto strains, stress one to hermie and use nanner pollen? I thought all autos were fem.

No my friend all reputable autos were created regular not fem!
If you created autos with just female plants they would be genetically unstable and mutations would take hold in a few generations. You need the male genes in there to keep the strain natural and stable.

I guess the answer to your question is you breed autos like any other plant letting the pollen do its work and harvesting seed.
There are however a few tricks to breeding with autos that I have picked up along the way.
I will give you a quick run down of the method I currently use.

Basics
1. Put down at least 30 seeds (you can do this in small pots for now if space is an issue)
2. From these seeds you select the male you want to use first, and kill the rest of the males (you select the male first as they show first)
3. Select 3-5 female plants to be mothers
4. Pollinate all mothers
5. Grow mothers as long as possible to give yourself the maximum number of viable seed
6. Harvest seed

FAQ
1. Why do I have to germinate so many seeds?
A. Because you don't want to breed with an unwanted pheno type, so you need a lot of options from which you can select the best and discard the rest, thus evolving the genetics in the way you want.

2. Why only one male?
A. Because as in any experiment you only want one variable. in this case the variable is the mother.

3. Why do I pollinate 3-5 Mothers?
A. Because you cant clone autos you are never completely sure of the smoke quality until you try it, so if you number or name the mother plants and do the same for the seeds that come off them, it gives you the opportunity to choose the mother that was what you were looking for. You then use these seeds for the next generation and discard the seeds from other mother plants.

4. How can I back cross an auto when the mother and father plant die?
A. There are 2 methods to be used here. The first is pollen collection. if you collect pollen from the male in the first cross it will keep for 3 months no problem, so you can use it on the third cross to back cross if necessary. the second method I use is to store seeds from every generation so I can always go back and cross with these earlier genotypes.

5. Can I use hermie pollen?
A. NO! NO! NO! NO! and NO! again! If you stress a plant and it goes hermie then it has weak genes and you shouldn't use it as it will produce hermie seed! If you want feminised seed then use colloidal silver or STS

6. How do I select mothers and fathers?
A. You use the knowledge you already have. most people instinctively know how to select the best of anything its explaining it that is hard! First off you will be look at things that can be easily seen and judged like speed of growth, structure etc.. This is where you make your first selection taking numbers down and giving you more space to work with. Next you will be selecting for the later developing traits like smell, bud production etc.. Lastly you will be selecting on the quality of the bud when finished. With males you use all the criteria above except for the bud quality

7. How can I learn more about breeding?
A. Learn a little bit about genetic transmission and things get a lot easier. I am sure I will go through some genetic transmission basics on this thread soon.
 
3N1GM4

3N1GM4

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So how many nodes should they have before you start selecting?
Seems like you would need a pretty large area and alot of wattage.
 
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Seraphim19

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It does seem that way but, if you work things right you can breed a strain in a space as small as an 80cm x 80 cm tent and with as little as 400w(actual draw = 300w)
I know this for a fact as I have done it.

I started by germinating 45 seeds in 500ml party cups. from there I killed about 5 in the first week after they broke ground these were the ones that were born deformed like when they grow with three leaves at the internode instead of 2
So you see selection starts immediately!
down to 40

At week 3 they were showing sex so I separated all the males, killed the majority of them and left myself about 5 to work with. These 5 had the best growth, structure and smell from the stem rub.
at this point I had killed another 15 - 20
down to 25

at week 4 all the plants had shown sex and I selected the best 5 females and up potted them into 10l pots I then killed the rest of the females.
I then narrowed down the males. I chose the best 2 and killed the other 3. These were also put into 10 litre pots
down to 7

between week 4 and 5 I chose my final male and killed the other one, before any pollen was dropped.
down to 6

around week 5 pollen was falling and I collected a load for future use.

now all I had to do is let nature take its course!

when they finished (around 11 weeks) I carefully harvested the plants letting the seed and bud dry together.
I keep each plant separate and numbered them 1-5
I ended up using no 3 as it had the best overall appeal.
seeds from the other plants were donated to friends or used as a food supplement

The next part you need more space. Testing - to properly test a new strain you need to grow at least 16 plants. This way you will see the different variations that were produced and then you can identify the pheno that you want to continue working with.
 
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nola.grower

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So let me get this straight, do you start with breeding regular parents, testing the seeds for right phenotypes, potency etc, then somehow stressing it to produce all feminized auto seeds? Or do you have one male reg parent and one auto fem parent?
 
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Seraphim19

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So let me get this straight, do you start with breeding regular parents, testing the seeds for right phenotypes, potency etc, then somehow stressing it to produce all feminized auto seeds? Or do you have one male reg parent and one auto fem parent?

I always breed with regular seeds not feminised ones. over time the repeated feminisation of the plants makes them genetically unstable and prone to mutations.

an example is if I wanted to make auto chocolope I would start with the photoperiod chocolope parents. I would put down a large number of these and bud them all while keeping cuttings of them. once tested I choose my parent plant and keep that cutting as a mother plant and kill the other cuttings. I then veg out the cutting turning it into a mother plant. I will keep this plant in veg for future back crossing.
I take a cutting from the mother plant, veg and then bud and pollinate. that's one side sorted.

then I would get my auto base strain, in this case sweet talker, and I do the same again but this time I am looking for males, because I cant test the quality of a male by smoking it I choose by structure, size, speed of growth, etc..
Once I have chosen a male I then pollinate the cutting I took from the chocolope mother plant. I also collect and store some pollen from the father plant for later back crossing

When I do feminise it is only for one of two reasons either its a strain I like so much I want fem seed to do away with the hassle of sexing the plants or it is because the seeds are fr sale and 90% of the people out there want a guaranteed female.

If you want info on feminisation I have got a thread going where I am reversing and feminising a strain of my own
 
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nola.grower

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Awesome, great explanation. Would definitely like to read that thread.

Im looking to breed a CBD rich Autoflowering True OG & a CBD rich Autoflowering Sunset Sherbet (if I can somehow find these seeds available)
 
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Seraphim19

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Thought I would drop a bit of info on genetics and genetic transmission.

Believe it or not you already know all about genetics but never realised! In life you learn these things everyday but you just don't see them as genetics. What I aim to do here is use examples that you can easily relate to so you know how to breed plants with the traits you want.

Where to begin? I think genes are a good place to start.
There are many different types of genes but for now lets just concentrate on 3 types

1. Dominant Gene
This gene will overpower the weaker(recessive) genes and will be visible in most of the offspring.
i.e. if a woman with blue eyes(recessive gene) has a baby with a man with brown eyes(dominant gene) the chances are the baby will have brown eyes

2. Recessive gene
The opposite of the dominant gene it will, in most cases, be overpowered by the dominant gene.

3. Combination gene
When reproduction occurs this gene will combine and make something new and unlike the mother or father
i.e. If a black woman and a white man have a child it wont be the same colour as the mother or the father. The colour genes combine and you get a shade somewhere between the two parents

So how do make sure the right genes are passed on?
With a lot of time and patience! It takes many generations of breeding to truly stabilise a plant into a new strain.

In order to manipulate the genes you need to understand how they work and their type.
Genes are contributed to the offspring by both mother and father. The parents give half of each of their genes to the offspring. This usually gives results that we are all used to in children. they resemble both parents.
Sometimes you get combinations that you wouldn't expect like 2 brown eyed parents having blue eyed children.

How does this happen?
Lets start with the parents.

The mother has brown eyes but her genes are brown/blue
She got the brown gene from one parent and the blue from another
Her eyes are brown because the brown gene is dominating the blue gene

The father has brown eyes and has the same genes brown /blue, he also got brown from one parent and blue from another.

Now when they decide to have children they donate half of their eye colour gene to the baby so there are a number of possibilities for the combination

i.e. out of their brown/blue the mother gives brown and the father gives brown = brown eyes
mother gives blue father gives brown = brown eyes
mother gives brown father gives blue = brown eyes
But they both carry the recessive blue gene so if the mother and father both give their blue gene = blue eyes

So you can see where things can take an odd turn from time to time.

When you are breeding look at the characteristics you want and work out whether they are dominant, recessive or combination.

Dominant genes will show in most of the offspring, recessive will be in very few and combination genes will be obvious.

Dominant genes are easy a couple of generations and they will be pretty stable

Recessive genes are difficult, you need to identify and isolate the ones with the characteristics you want and breed with them. So in essence finding the blue eyed baby

Combination genes are also pretty easy, if you mix a lemon tasting plant with a earthy tasting plant then you will get a whole new flavour which you can then refine
 
mancdank

mancdank

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Guys this thread is awesome and hitting pretty much every question I had on autos and the breading of them is there any strains any 1 would recommend I'm looking for a tangie type or strawberry sweets type I already have several kush and racefuel types and looking for some nice fruity 1s to compliment them
 
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Seraphim19

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Hey @mancdank

I saw your post in the accurate info on autoflowers thread and I was not sure what you were asking but I am sure that you will let me know.

What project are you doing at the moment? do you want to breed an auto x auto or are you looking to turn a photo to auto by crossing them i.e. photo x auto?

some good fruity autos that I have personally tried are:

Kannabia - hobbit, there is a strawberry yogurt pheno in these seeds which is amazing!

Flash - cobra, not the best yielder but gives a lovely strawberry taste and aroma

Dinafem - fruit auto, it does what it says on the tin!

Dutch passion - blueberry, another winner from dutch passion a reliable powerful and flavoursome plant

Mephisto genetics - S.O.D.K., it stands for sour orange diesel kush. Mephisto are quite new but I have known all about these guys for years and have seen their development process so I wholeheartedly recommend them

I hope this helps
 
mancdank

mancdank

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@mancdank I forgot 1 barneys farm - tangelo rapido for the tangie you were looking for. Their pinapple express is good too!
Had too many disappointing results from barneys can't see me going back there I know this game is 1 of trial and error but wow not more error than success and the right beans from the right source is a certain good foundation
 
mancdank

mancdank

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Had too many disappointing results from barneys can't see me going back there I know this game is 1 of trial and error but wow not more error than success and the right beans from the right source is a certain good foundation
Although it does look real tasty I've been trying to find some chocolate covered strawberries but there not easy to find
 
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Seraphim19

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I've never had a go with auto this is going to be a new adventure also the breeding is all new too I want to get some of these new US flavours over here in the UK which has been dominated with Dutch companies forever
There are some good plants coming out of the US but there is more crap than good stuff so be careful what you order.
I am sure you will do just fine but if you hit any problems just send me a message and I will do all I can to help you out. If you start a thread for your grow let me know and I will follow it
 
mancdank

mancdank

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There are some good plants coming out of the US but there is more crap than good stuff so be careful what you order.
I am sure you will do just fine but if you hit any problems just send me a message and I will do all I can to help you out. If you start a thread for your grow let me know and I will follow it
I'm thinking maybe a cream mandarine and getting something to put a bit more tangie with it and then maybe when I get the flavour I want putting it with maybe shoreline or stardawg bit for now would be good to hear your thoughts on the cream mandarine as a whole I sampled a little smoke of it and was real impressed and tbh couldn't belive it was done with a auto the flavour was intense and the nug was rock hard is this a rare find or are these stable
 
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Seraphim19

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I'm thinking maybe a cream mandarine and getting something to put a bit more tangie with it and then maybe when I get the flavour I want putting it with maybe shoreline or stardawg bit for now would be good to hear your thoughts on the cream mandarine as a whole I sampled a little smoke of it and was real impressed and tbh couldn't belive it was done with a auto the flavour was intense and the nug was rock hard is this a rare find or are these stable
It probably was an auto. I tried cream mandarin and cream caramel a while back and they were both impressive plants. As far as retail seeds go they have a good amount of potency and are reliable. by that I mean that yes you will get the intense flavour and the dense nugs 9 times out of 10.

I have got a strain called the scouser that is an intensely fruity plant with power to put most retail seeds to shame, get your first auto grow under your belt and who knows you might get to try it for yourself.
 
str8smokn

str8smokn

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@mancdank Ha lucky dog,get that first grow going and bang it out.. It sounds as if you could be a lucky tester in the future...

Hey @Seraphim19 while you are on , I'm rocking a treacle that turned out a female. I'm going to try and crack some Scouser again I think.
I hope all is going good with your Big Red Bitch..
STR8
 
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