Built my own light rotator- wanna see?

  • Thread starter ttystikk
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
T

TreFarmer

Guest
Optimization of this system will increase results. That seems to be the defense here. Not that this light mover is more efficient. I mean most agree that a bit of light movment to maximize coverage can be beneficial. TO A POINT. The thing is if we all spent time improving the way that we look at lost light and made each room as efficient as possible, it would be more beneficial than the mover itself. I think we are just skeptical over anyboy that uses names like Ford and Columbus even Corvette when arguing they've found the world to be even rounder. Good luck I hope this is the Grail!
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Optimization of this system will increase results. That seems to be the defense here. Not that this light mover is more efficient. I mean most agree that a bit of light movment to maximize coverage can be beneficial. TO A POINT. The thing is if we all spent time improving the way that we look at lost light and made each room as efficient as possible, it would be more beneficial than the mover itself. I think we are just skeptical over anyboy that uses names like Ford and Columbus even Corvette when arguing they've found the world to be even rounder. Good luck I hope this is the Grail!

Hmmm... and if improving things to make them more efficient isn't actually innovation, then what would you call it? One man's incremental improvement is another man's breakthrough...

I didn't suggest taking anything to an extreme- what I'm advocating is a systems approach, and the system that I am breaking into its component pieces for examination and improvement is the very light system we've all come to know and *assume* is optimal, when it is demonstrably far from it.

The research I've cited and the work I'm doing all point in the direction of improved efficiencies, and that's what this is all about. After all, do you really expect a revolutionary difference between one line of premium nutrients and another? The most you can reasonably expect is incremental imrovements. I just think you're holding this light mover thing to an unreasonably high standard.

I take issue with your constant use of the 'we' in your response as well- precisely whom do you presume to be speaking for, besides yourself? And did they ask you to speak on their behalf? Are your arguments more valid somehow if you can imply that you speak for many people?

While we're on the subject of picking at language and grammar, I use the illustrations and examples I do because they are accessible, so that people understand the concept I'm trying to convey. If they seem a little simplistic, well, I'm trying to reach everyone I can, not just the highbrows. People understand and relate to Corvettes, Fords and know the story of Columbus, so why not use them?

Back to the basic point. "Optimization of this system will increase results." Ummmm.... yeah! So the next obvious question is how? And that's the question I'm asking, and trying to answer both with relevant examples, citations and opinions of knowlegeable experts- and with my own work.

It seems there is quite the bias built up around light moving technologies in this industry and I felt that it warranted further, more careful examination. I've acknowleged that people have indeed gotten poor results from light movers in the past, and like any plane crash investigator, I've examined the reasons behind those failures with an open mind, and shared my thoughts here.

If it sounds like I'm defending an idea, that's because I think it's a good one, and until I see evidence that the technology itself is suspect, I'm going to go on defending it. That's not thickheadedness, that's the spirit of debate. One will notice I don't take it personally when people disagree, instead I take their ideas apart and carefully examine them for their merit, as I hope people are doing with mine. In this way we can all arrive at a better way of- in this case- lighting our growrooms, and save some money on power bills and equipment in the process.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
No one has yet asked me how I dealt with the problem of 'the dark crescent' on the side furthest away from the light... While several have correctly pointed out that any length of inadequate light is inadequate, they don't seem too keen on finding out whether I solved it, or how. This is exactly the mentality I find least helpful- where people come and shit all over an idea, but arent' interested in whether the problems they cite have been addressed, much less solved.

In this case, I solved the dark crescent problem by paying careful attention to light distances. For one 1000w HPS, the maximum length of direct light is about 4 feet, so if the bulb never gets further away than that, the problem never has a chance to assert itself. Carefully reflected light can increase this distance, conservatively perhaps 6 inches to another foot. Thus, a 6 foot diameter canopy arranged in a circle with reflective material around the entire edge, with the bulb orbiting in its own circle about 3.5 to 4 feet in diameter, satisfies this requirement.

In other words, instead of poking holes in people's ideas, let's solve them. I still think the concept of rotating light movers has merit, and the evidence I'm getting with my own eyes is bearing me out on this. Who here wants to spend more money on electricity than they have to? Anyone??

Nuff said.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Ganja Gardener stirred my creative juices with his thread on the light spreader part of the adjust-a-wing, so in a bit I'll post some pix of my light rotator reconfigured with one adjust-a-wing (no spreader!) and the reflective mylar material in position. Hopin' you guys like what you see...
 
T

TreFarmer

Guest
b​
Ganja Gardener stirred my creative juices with his thread on the light spreader part of the adjust-a-wing, so in a bit I'll post some pix of my light rotator reconfigured with one adjust-a-wing (no spreader!) and the reflective mylar material in position. Hopin' you guys like what you see...

I think we are all anxious to see how things are progressing.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Not sure if this is what you had in mind, ttystikk, but angling the top of the board in- even a slight angle, will direct more usable light to the canopy than will the 90 degrees off the wall, given you have a little extra space and a lighting array that can handle it. You can use a mirror and a laser pointer to drill down the optimum angle.

You're thinking EXACTLY what I'm thinking. In my mind's eye, I'm seeing the light, say a 1000w HID in an adjust-a-wing, endlessly moving around a circle about 3.5-4' in diameter about 18" above the canopy. The plants are arranged in a circular area about 6.5' in diameter centered on the hub of the light rotator, and topped and trained so they are flat across the top and are themselves each perhaps 2.5 - 3' across.

The rigid reflective light panels are mounted around the perimeter of the circle, arranged like a stopsign if seen directly from above. Shaped like trapezoids, top narrower than bottom, these panels are all angled inwards about 25 degrees from the vertical so as to accomplish just what you suggest, reflecting any and all light that would otherwise miss the canopy back down onto it. Better yet, the angle is such that the light would help illuminate the 'dark crescent', that area of the circular grow area that would otherwise be far enough away from the bulb and reflector to receive inadequate light. If the circle of canopy is 6.5' in diameter or less, then light from the adjust-a-wing and light panels would combine to eliminate this traveling dark spot altogether!

What you're left with, then, is a bare (no glass!) 1000w HID bulb that travels in an endless circle only a foot and a half above the canopy, moving fast enough that this proximity does NOT burn any growing tops. Nearly all the light the bulb throws off, even that which is traveling horizontally away from the bulb gets captured by the flat panels at the edge of the canopy and reflected down onto it, ALL WHILE MAINTAINING THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE DISTANCE BETWEEN BULB AND CANOPY. This last is critical, since therin lies the reason why this setup would be anywhere up to twice as efficient as a stationary fixture at getting effective lumens on leaves. The bulb is so close to the canopy at all times that it's like having a traveling spot of daylight, and even the furthest reaches of the canopy would be getting adequate plant available lighting. It would have the maximum penetration due to both brightness and the fact that it's moving to overcome leaf shading.

The panels around the edge of the canopy would need to be right AT the edge of the canopy to minimize the length of travel of any given photon. I want them to be smooth, not 'specularized', since I don't want any diffusion to take place. Diffusion = scattering and it's only employed to help overcome the weaknesses of a stationary light source. Since the light moves, all the bright 'hotspots' travel around as well, eliminating any need for scattering.

For that matter, I am trying to source smooth mirror finish aluminum instead of the specularized stuff for my own version of an adjust-a-wing, again to maximize the reflection and minimize scattering. The cheap batwing reflectors out there use this smooth finish stuff, and it's the best material out there in terms of absolute reflectivity. The shape of the reflector is also very important- the best way to set up the adjust-a-wing for this approach is as wide as possible with the bulb hung as low in the fixture as possible, for the maximum amount of side lighting. Since the angled panels are there to redirect light down onto the canopy, there is no longer a concern that light will be lost just because it's travelling horizontally away from the bulb.

Specularized reflective surfaces, including white walls, all serve to scatter light around- which wastes light by sending a lot of it in useless directions- like into your eyes when you're standing next to your crop, making it SEEM bright when actually what you're squinting at is wasted lumens! With a moving light source there is no need for diffusion strategies of any kind, so instead my approach FOCUSES all available light onto the canopy, relying on the movement of the hood itself to spread the light around evenly.

If you crawl in amongst your girls and look up (with sunglasses on!) from the perspective of the canopy itself, I want you to be able to clearly spot not just one, but at least THREE light filaments; one directly, one in the reflector next to the bulb, and at least one more when you look at the rigid reflective panels around the canopy.

Air movement is accomplished by running oscillating fans up on the walls above the reflective panels aimed downwards, and using the natural airflow coming in from under the edges of the panels near the base of the plants rising up and through the 'stopsign', since heat rises. The shape of the panels aorund the outside actually look and act a lot like a slice of a cooling tower you see at the power plant.

Since you're well versed in how light works, let me know if this makes sense to you, and where my thinking may be awry?
 
sebastien420

sebastien420

75
18
ok! u keep saying the sun goes around the world...and yes your right,but now if there were 2 or 3 or 4 sun's and they were stationary and they were on timers they would do better then one...does that make sence to u...
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
ok! u keep saying the sun goes around the world...and yes your right,but now if there were 2 or 3 or 4 sun's and they were stationary and they were on timers they would do better then one...does that make sence to u...

Wow, there's enough holes in that argument to make swiss cheese... First, lights are not the sun. Not bright enough, and the light attenuates too fast. Second, what's so great about stationary lights? Third, I have done a lot of research and I haven't seen anyone building a lighting system quite like what I've been developing. It takes the strengths and the weaknesses of indoor lighting into account and comes up with an elegant solution that should save anywhere up to 50% on the power bill. What's not to like?

Now, I've been honest about my successes and failures when working on various ideas. Poke around and you'll see when I get it wrong, I 'fess up. If this doesn't work, with a good side by side trial, I will say so, and THEN y'll can say 'I told you so!' But what if I'm right?
 
G

Grow2BFree

47
8
Keep on with this light mover, let YOU be the judge of the success of this project, not some dudes sitting behind their computers.

It is new ideas that make advancements, all the while you are learning as well.

When smoking your buds, that will tell you how well your ideas work.

Happy growing,
Grow2BFree
 
D

DazedNconfussed

537
16
So what kind of weight have you produced off this setup?
 
T

TreFarmer

Guest
After six months and thousands in optimization, this is gonna be good:D So then,
...any progress, or just still explaining your position? Why no updates just arguments?? You have lost a subscriber;(
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
So what kind of weight have you produced off this setup?

With just one 1000w HPS, I've produced over 800 grams (1.6 lbs), this in soil with plants that clearly could have used more water and nutrients than they were getting. That's why I switched to RDWC.

After six months and thousands in optimization, this is gonna be good:D So then,
...any progress, or just still explaining your position? Why no updates just arguments?? You have lost a subscriber;(

...and when I switched to RDWC, I embarked on a whole new learning curve! I've been fighting to try and get control of my garden ever since, trying to stave off the dreaded pythum rot and so on. If I'm dealing with issues like those, I clearly can't be making any side by side comparisons about which lighting system works best and why.

I need to be able to grow and get similar results to what others are getting here, so that when the comparisons are made people can't point to suspiciously low yields and ask whether my growing methods skewed the results. In addition to the new RDWC setup, I haven't grown under 55W/square foot before. I have never used this much wattage in such a small growing space. Learning how to grow the way 'everyone else' does it has been quite the learning experience for me! Notice, I've never said the way others are doing it is bad- I'm sure it's my own inexperience telling so far.

Once I'm getting decent yields doing it the 'conventional' way, then I am in a much better position to make comparison runs and then discuss the specific differences between it and my rotator ideas. I can also get more specific about changes in room design and so forth. Sadly, all this takes time. Sorry if it took too long for you.

Keep on with this light mover, let YOU be the judge of the success of this project, not some dudes sitting behind their computers.

It is new ideas that make advancements, all the while you are learning as well.

When smoking your buds, that will tell you how well your ideas work.

Happy growing,
Grow2BFree

New ideas take time to develop, optimize and validate. Often, other projects or problems get in the way, which is what happened to me. In this case, I've been sidetracked by learning the pitfalls of RDWC the hard way. Even so, I feel like this is ultimately going to produce better results, because I'll have removed the limits of nutrient and water availability.

I've spent the time wisely, by running a hydro system that people are most likely to use under a rotator (hydro in general as opposed to soil), and I chose RDWC because I felt I could repeat my inputs most precisely with it. That said, I'm still working the bugs out. Recently went with a chiller system to keep more consistent temps both in the air and in the nute water.

I've also refined the design of components, simplifying the design and developing ways to make it work in different sized and shaped rooms, for instance. Making the circle under the rotator bigger and smaller, using one or multiple lights, utilizing different hoods to see what works best.

Kinda like watching a duck swim, there's a lot going on under the surface that isn't seen by just looking at the duck floating about on the water...

I've been doing some math, too- for instance, if I cut the watts per square foot by half, in order for this system to 'fail', it would have to produce half or less of the output. Based on previous experience, I really don't think that will happen. So, if my grams per square foot falls by, say, 25% does that mean the system is a failure? Even if that mean yields went up by 50% on a grams per watt basis?

I guess that would depend on your perspective. IF square footage is your ultimate limitation, then maybe. IF reducing the cost of your inputs is a major factor, then definitely not. So, which is more expensive? Square footage or the power bill? Where I'm at, power is definitely a higher cost than rent!
 
F

FruitOfTheLabor

181
28
basicly even jorge c says.. that light movers can help 25-35 percent.. butttt its not to be used say... if stationary u would use 2 600 watt lights in ur room.. if u use a light mover and 1 600 u wont get the same results.. but if u use 2 lights and a light mover u will get 25-35% increase in lite intesity in spots were u wouldnt have .. sooo making ur outter buds more dense and in turn yeilding more so inturn ur going to make more money so ya this dudes correct.. im about to put my 2 1000s in a 60 in cool tube on a mover to allow my room to add 3 feet of grow space ....... for primo buds that i wouldnt of grown because they wouldnt get the same lite intesity without the mover at all... u ever get the buds right under the light that u keep for yourself??? u wont have to pick anymore just trim sell and smoke all will be primo
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
basicly even jorge c says.. that light movers can help 25-35 percent.. butttt its not to be used say... if stationary u would use 2 600 watt lights in ur room.. if u use a light mover and 1 600 u wont get the same results.. but if u use 2 lights and a light mover u will get 25-35% increase in lite intesity in spots were u wouldnt have .. sooo making ur outter buds more dense and in turn yeilding more so inturn ur going to make more money so ya this dudes correct.. im about to put my 2 1000s in a 60 in cool tube on a mover to allow my room to add 3 feet of grow space ....... for primo buds that i wouldnt of grown because they wouldnt get the same lite intesity without the mover at all... u ever get the buds right under the light that u keep for yourself??? u wont have to pick anymore just trim sell and smoke all will be primo

The first generation of light movers would increase yields by that much, as does the linear version. I'm aiming higher than that. I'm moving the light in a circle, so there's no dark at the ends. I'm moving the light fast enough so the bulb can be closer to the canopy, for much higher peak intensity. I'm paying careful attention to the interaction between light rotater and the reflective system at the edge of the canopy, aiming to create synergies that eliminate the 'dark crescent' on the side opposite the bulb that would otherwise hinder yields.

Word on better trichome production. For whatever reason, the girls really put out when they get beamed by high intensity light, even if they don't get it constantly. This is why I don't truck with 600w bulbs. I think the constantly changing angle of light helps both production and efficiency by improving penetration and reducing shading. Hoods with lots of sideshine that give direct light to colas all across the canopy, from all angles as the light moves in its circle.

This is a different approach to growing- plots are laid out differently, plants are trained differently. My goal is to crank up the grams per watt statistic with this, while trying not to let grams per square foot fall any more than absolutely necessary. My justification for this is simply that power is more expensive than square footage, and that prices for our product are coming down, and that means the setup that's most efficient leaves less money on the table and more in the grower's pocket!
 
motherlode

motherlode

@Rolln_J
Supporter
5,524
313
maybe you mentioned it before - you using mh and hps?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
maybe you mentioned it before - you using mh and hps?

For these tests, all lights are 1000W HID, either MH or HPS.

I've done tests with this system using one hood, tried both MH in veg and HPS in bloom, and they worked very well in both applications. This tended to work out best with a stopsign shaped growing area about 6.5' across, the hood rotating in a circle 3 feet in diameter centered on the growing area. This works out to 32 square feet, give or take. With a rotator speed of about 1/3 rpm, the light can be just a foot above the canopy!

To do a somewhat larger footprint- about double, as it turns out- make the growing area about 9 feet across (roughly 64 square feet), and increase the diameter of the circle the lights travel around to 4 feet or so. I used two lights (one each MH and HPS) in vented hoods hung so the vents and bulbs line up on their long axis, hoods then can be ventilated and the warm air sucked out and ducted away! One can even set up an intake duct, so that the room can be sealed while the lights are ventilated with outside air! The two lights working together work out to create almost as much light at the edge of the canopy opposite the bulbs as the single hood system does. Again, the lights can be just a foot above the canopy without burning but this time the rotator needs to be moving 1/2 rpm, a little faster.

Observations so far indicate that enclosed and vented hoods have a serious disadvantage when compared to an open adjust-a-wing style hood, in that the sideshine from these projector style hoods is drastically reduced. 'Ocho' magnum xxxl hoods are a little better, but they're very big and unwieldy and they're still nowhere near as efficient as the fully open hood. Note that an open bulb on the rotator system does not burn the canopy even when tops get within a foot of it, because it's constantly moving at a steady rate.

Also, the canopy edge design has a dramatic impact on the quality and evenness of the crop across the entire growing area. If no reflective system is used, the edges definitely suffer. If simple white surfaces are employed, it's only a bit better. But when fully reflective surfaces like smooth mylar are used, the quality at the edges becomes all but indistinguishable from that directly under the path of the bulb!

I know, I wrote a book to answer a simple question. Sue me... ;-)
 
motherlode

motherlode

@Rolln_J
Supporter
5,524
313
ahh - was just wondering if you were taking advantage of going full spectrum on them bitches

I really like mixing mh and hps and a rotator seems like the perfect platform for it
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
ahh - was just wondering if you were taking advantage of going full spectrum on them bitches

I really like mixing mh and hps and a rotator seems like the perfect platform for it

I met this crazy dude at an industry convention here in Denver about a year ago. He was the owner and 'chief engineer' of a line of light spinners. First, his would SPIN, at 30 rpm! That's as fast- and potentially dangerous- as a ceiling fan! Second, he had developed a relationship with Pulse lighting and a whole section of his informational literature revolved (sorry) around the different spectra of bulbs you could put in various configurations for various parts of the plant's life cycle.

These units were well engineered, although he couldn't get a UL listing for them since the power went thru a brush system in the hub to get to the ballasts on the arms (!) and then to the bulbs themselves. Complaints from booth holders near his included fatigue and headaches from the incessant flickering as these things sped around their circle...

My basic issue with them, aside from the cost (wicked spendy!), was that every bulb in every one of his designs- they ranged from 1 bulb to as many as 6 on a given spinner- all rotated at exactly the same distance from the hub- meaning that it would be easy to get a dark spot in the middle AND at the edges, especially with lower wattage bulbs.

My plan is to use only one or at most two bulbs and move it at a more reasonable rate- no worries about getting your fucking head cut off!- and most importantly, paying careful attention to the light distribution.
 
motherlode

motherlode

@Rolln_J
Supporter
5,524
313
lol yeah I seen the ceiling fan spinners with the super expensive bulbs

downside of those is they would have to be pretty high off the plant or it might just be off with my head

wich I smack on my mag xxls way too often
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
I dunno, man - when I saw those things spinning, the first thing I thought of was to make the light reflector sections in the shape of an upside down airfoil, so the spinner would act like a fan, and actually create an updraft above the plants! I mean, if it's gonna move That fast, why not, right? Yet when I mentioned that to him, he gave me a blank look...
 
Top Bottom