Defoliation Side By Side - Bushy Plants

[Glow]

24hr light ? don't they need at least a few hrs. of dark time ?

Yep in short-day photoperiod sensitive plants its not advisable to run 24 hour lighting. Another myth in the pot scene that has remained with a few. Its also the reason he is finding it is better at low temperatures

A 2010 literature review covering numerous studies surrounding continuous (24-hour) lighting highlights several things:


1) Research findings surrounding continuous (24-hour) lighting are highly variable and often contradictory. In some instances, growth gains are seen while in other studies no gains are seen, while in yet other studies growth rates and plant health is negatively impacted.

2) In most long-day plants continuous light accelerated growth while in most short-day plants no benefits were seen. Some long-day plants include carnation, oat, pea and barley while the short-day plants include cotton, rice and cannabis.

3) The use of continuous light caused a reduction in the photosynthesis rate of photoperiod-sensitive tomato, but did not affect photosynthesis rates in less photoperiod-sensitive sweet pepper. The hypothesis here is that the continuous lighting of tomato increased the accumulation of starch, by feedback effect, causing an overload of the Calvin Cycle. The end result was that photosynthesis and plant health was negatively impacted.

4) Under extended photoperiods, many sensitive species tend to develop physiological disorders. Light injury symptoms caused by exposing plants to continuous light were reported for several species including tomato.

5) Light quantity and quality play important roles in determining outcomes pertaining to leaf injury. For example, the extent of the leaf injury under continuous light was heavily influenced by the intensity of light received. Additionally, the severity of leaf damage caused by continuous light varied with the type of lamps (high pressure sodium versus metal halide) used to provide supplemental light.

6) Daytime temperatures and thermoperiod DIF also appear to play an important role in leaf injury under continuous light. [1]

Technicalities aside, while some might tell you that using a 24-hour light cycle in ‘veg’ is the go, things are more complex than this. Many indoor growers produce a short-day, photoperiod-sensitive plant under lights and what studies are available show that short-day photoperiod-sensitive plants 1) do not gain much, if any, growth benefits from 24 hours of light and 2) under certain conditions they can develop physiological disorders (i.e. 24-hour lighting causes plant stress).

[1] Plants under Continuous Light: A Review Sysoeva M.L, Markouskaya E. F & Shibaeva T.G. Plant Stress, Global Sciences Book 2010

 

[3 balls]

Yep in short-day photoperiod sensitive plants its not advisable to run 24 hour lighting. Another myth in the pot scene that has remained with a few. Its also the reason he is finding it is better at low temperatures

A 2010 literature review covering numerous studies surrounding continuous (24-hour) lighting highlights several things:


1) Research findings surrounding continuous (24-hour) lighting are highly variable and often contradictory. In some instances, growth gains are seen while in other studies no gains are seen, while in yet other studies growth rates and plant health is negatively impacted.

2) In most long-day plants continuous light accelerated growth while in most short-day plants no benefits were seen. Some long-day plants include carnation, oat, pea and barley while the short-day plants include cotton, rice and cannabis.

3) The use of continuous light caused a reduction in the photosynthesis rate of photoperiod-sensitive tomato, but did not affect photosynthesis rates in less photoperiod-sensitive sweet pepper. The hypothesis here is that the continuous lighting of tomato increased the accumulation of starch, by feedback effect, causing an overload of the Calvin Cycle. The end result was that photosynthesis and plant health was negatively impacted.

4) Under extended photoperiods, many sensitive species tend to develop physiological disorders. Light injury symptoms caused by exposing plants to continuous light were reported for several species including tomato.

5) Light quantity and quality play important roles in determining outcomes pertaining to leaf injury. For example, the extent of the leaf injury under continuous light was heavily influenced by the intensity of light received. Additionally, the severity of leaf damage caused by continuous light varied with the type of lamps (high pressure sodium versus metal halide) used to provide supplemental light.

6) Daytime temperatures and thermoperiod DIF also appear to play an important role in leaf injury under continuous light. [1]

Technicalities aside, while some might tell you that using a 24-hour light cycle in ‘veg’ is the go, things are more complex than this. Many indoor growers produce a short-day, photoperiod-sensitive plant under lights and what studies are available show that short-day photoperiod-sensitive plants 1) do not gain much, if any, growth benefits from 24 hours of light and 2) under certain conditions they can develop physiological disorders (i.e. 24-hour lighting causes plant stress).

[1] Plants under Continuous Light: A Review Sysoeva M.L, Markouskaya E. F & Shibaeva T.G. Plant Stress, Global Sciences Book 2010

I think this is the 3rd time this week you have given me good reason to question something I've practiced and believed in a long time.:) I latched on to 24hr veg because I have the patience of a 3 year old. Would 20/4 give me comparable growth rates minus the stress?

 

[Glow]

20/4 would certainly be better than 24 and it is used by a lot of growers. The main thing is it helps plant health to give them some dark hours during veg. I've always myself been happy with 18/6 and don't find you get much if any benefits going above this re growth rates in veg.

 

[3 balls]

Another thing I wonder about somewhat pertaining to the thread topic. Keep in mind I'm not referring to leaves specifically, more pruning defoliation.
In the week leading up to flip, I prune up every node and snip off any branches/stems that I don't think have a chance of seeing the light in my tightly packed scroggish type room. From mid week two to mid week three, the plants are obviously unrecognizable. So I repeat the prune job. My concern is by doing this, even though still early in flower- while removing stuff what will be trash and in theory transferring energy, I'm stressing the plant too much. Thoughts?

 

[Rootbound]

You're misunderstanding. Sea of Green isn't one node, it's very small plants. One node flip is done on big plants. They can even have multiple tops, the key factor is that you remove all nodes below the top one on each branch.

Nah, one node flip is not just for tall plants. It is done on shorter plants also with multiple tops and works just fine and no need for a net.

 

[Glow]

What I like about not using nets and instead using tomato cages or stakes is I am able to move plants throughout flower so if the need more space spread them out or if I can pack them more tightly without creating canopy issues bring them more closely together. This definitely helps with yields as you can maximise space to best effect. Also those bottom nodes at flip are next to useless because they become thin branches and get crowded out by the upper growth producing nothing either way.

 

[3 balls]

What I like about not using nets and instead using tomato cages or stakes is I am able to move plants throughout flower so if the need more space spread them out or if I can pack them more tightly without creating canopy issues bring them more closely together. This definitely helps with yields as you can maximise space to best effect. Also those bottom nodes at flip are next to useless because they become thin branches and get crowded out by the upper growth producing nothing either way.

Tomato cages sound worth a try. As far as the bottom nodes that become thin branches if you didn't cut them at flip, is it okay to snip them in flower?

 

[Glow]

Tomato cages sound worth a try. As far as the bottom nodes that become thin branches if you didn't cut them at flip, is it okay to snip them in flower?

Absolutely, a lot of growers do this. Think of cutting off those thin branches as pruning just as you do with other fruit crops. They act to suck energy and produce very little. Cutting them off means more energy can be directed towards branches that will produce.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I have limited height with low ceilings so i encourage the lowest branches to grow up and make tops. It would be quite a loss if i pruned them off.

And i have seen balls and/or nanners on touchy plants at the cut site when done in 12/12.

I want to maximize the plant in an approximately 2x2x 30” space. I want 2’ deep in buds.


I have always been shy to cut branches. I even take the newest lowers in veg if i want cuttings.

 

[Glow]

I have limited height with low ceilings so i encourage the lowest branches to grow up and make tops. It would be quite a loss if i pruned them off.

And i have seen balls and/or nanners on touchy plants at the cut site when done in 12/12.

View attachment 849878

I want to maximize the plant in an approximately 2x2x 30” space. I want 2’ deep in buds.


I have always been shy to cut branches. I even take the newest lowers in veg if i want cuttings.

Yes, looks great. I think the important thing too many don't talk about is growing style and genetics. Myself I'd be cutting off those lower branches and packing more plants in more closely to maximise large bud production from branches further up and get more plants doing this in a given space. But that looks great! Coco and perlite??? And are you defoliating along the way or did you defoliate for the photo??

 

[ONalliance]

I agree with those that use defoilation to increase air flow and light. but, it seems to be a matter of intuition and stage. technically all that shitty hopeful lower branching isnt worth the fantasy many hold on to, or work if you try hand trimming that shit. So i'd say go for medium to great buds only and cut the rest off as early as you can. overlapping leaves can be an issue for airflow and lower bud development, so pick off the ones that are getting the way, of use sharp sizzers and half them. I would much rather train a plant out then simply cut and pinch.

 

[Melefarmer]

I use this one http://opennlabs.com/vpd/VPD_calculator.php

btw I think 71F is too low temperature for veg

 

[3 balls]

Yes, looks great. I think the important thing too many don't talk about is growing style and genetics. Myself I'd be cutting off those lower branches and packing more plants in more closely to maximise large bud production from branches further up and get more plants doing this in a given space. But that looks great! Coco and perlite??? And are you defoliating along the way or did you defoliate for the photo??

Your 2nd sentence nails it, just about any thread you find, there will be strong opposing opinions from legit growers that know what their doing. Tent vs. room vs. warehouse is huge. Many times my buddy and I will take a cutting from the same mother, one of us will do great with a particular strain while the other has horrible results. Our grows a very similar, it's just the little things.

And genetics blow my mind, you would think how different can two different strains of cannabis plants be, but I swear sometimes it's like a frog compared to a hamster.:)

 

[Mr.jiujitsu]

Yep in short-day photoperiod sensitive plants its not advisable to run 24 hour lighting. Another myth in the pot scene that has remained with a few. Its also the reason he is finding it is better at low temperatures

A 2010 literature review covering numerous studies surrounding continuous (24-hour) lighting highlights several things:


1) Research findings surrounding continuous (24-hour) lighting are highly variable and often contradictory. In some instances, growth gains are seen while in other studies no gains are seen, while in yet other studies growth rates and plant health is negatively impacted.

2) In most long-day plants continuous light accelerated growth while in most short-day plants no benefits were seen. Some long-day plants include carnation, oat, pea and barley while the short-day plants include cotton, rice and cannabis.

3) The use of continuous light caused a reduction in the photosynthesis rate of photoperiod-sensitive tomato, but did not affect photosynthesis rates in less photoperiod-sensitive sweet pepper. The hypothesis here is that the continuous lighting of tomato increased the accumulation of starch, by feedback effect, causing an overload of the Calvin Cycle. The end result was that photosynthesis and plant health was negatively impacted.

4) Under extended photoperiods, many sensitive species tend to develop physiological disorders. Light injury symptoms caused by exposing plants to continuous light were reported for several species including tomato.

5) Light quantity and quality play important roles in determining outcomes pertaining to leaf injury. For example, the extent of the leaf injury under continuous light was heavily influenced by the intensity of light received. Additionally, the severity of leaf damage caused by continuous light varied with the type of lamps (high pressure sodium versus metal halide) used to provide supplemental light.

6) Daytime temperatures and thermoperiod DIF also appear to play an important role in leaf injury under continuous light. [1]

Technicalities aside, while some might tell you that using a 24-hour light cycle in ‘veg’ is the go, things are more complex than this. Many indoor growers produce a short-day, photoperiod-sensitive plant under lights and what studies are available show that short-day photoperiod-sensitive plants 1) do not gain much, if any, growth benefits from 24 hours of light and 2) under certain conditions they can develop physiological disorders (i.e. 24-hour lighting causes plant stress).

[1] Plants under Continuous Light: A Review Sysoeva M.L, Markouskaya E. F & Shibaeva T.G. Plant Stress, Global Sciences Book 2010

Great sourced information. It’s unfortunate that it doesn’t deal with current LEDs, as I have found that growing under them is very different than those mentioned. I have to agree in the past my tomato plants did not do well under 24hr lighting. 5 and 6 also make me question the relationship of the results vs led lighting. But it’s great information. It makes me curious, when I flip my plants start flowering very quickly, the change of lighting is signifigant. I think your suggestion that my lower temps and the continuous lighting in conjunction give me positive results has real validity. I appreciate your post, your sourcing and your opinion.

 

[Mr.jiujitsu]

Another thing I wonder about somewhat pertaining to the thread topic. Keep in mind I'm not referring to leaves specifically, more pruning defoliation.
In the week leading up to flip, I prune up every node and snip off any branches/stems that I don't think have a chance of seeing the light in my tightly packed scroggish type room. From mid week two to mid week three, the plants are obviously unrecognizable. So I repeat the prune job. My concern is by doing this, even though still early in flower- while removing stuff what will be trash and in theory transferring energy, I'm stressing the plant too much. Thoughts?

I think your dead on the money. I very often do a pretty hard defoliation and cut back a week or two before flip then another one (some times pretty heavy) the day of flip when they move tents. I have tried multiple ways, but this has given me great results. I will then hit fan leaves that are blocking bud sites a couple weeks in, and continue as needed.

 

[1diesel1]

Ultimately defoliation is predicated by the size of the plant being flowered. you cannot compare ones grow to the others because of the growers ability. size of tent, room, warehouse, ability to grow a successful ending flowering process. Each is his or her own process of finishing a proper finished flower that the grower has created to the best of there ability in there situation. That being said, defoliate at your will!

 

[Mr.jiujitsu]

Ultimately defoliation is predicated by the size of the plant being flowered. you cannot compare ones grow to the others because of the growers ability. size of tent, room, warehouse, ability to grow a successful ending flowering process. Each is his or her own process of finishing a proper finished flower that the grower has created to the best of there ability in there situation. That being said, defoliate at your will!View attachment 849896

You grow some wild trees bro! And dead on the money as usual

 

[MIMedGrower]

Yes, looks great. I think the important thing too many don't talk about is growing style and genetics. Myself I'd be cutting off those lower branches and packing more plants in more closely to maximise large bud production from branches further up and get more plants doing this in a given space. But that looks great! Coco and perlite??? And are you defoliating along the way or did you defoliate for the photo??

Thank you.

Ocean forest with added large perlite and botanicare pure blend pro grow only in flower after the soil depleted week 2.

And it is stripped for harvest. I wanted to show how much bud can grow from the bottom branch.

I rarely clip a leaf unless the plant seems done with it or it is 50% damaged. But i space out bushes in different stages for perpetual harvest.

Here she is straight out of the flower room. We harvest in the kitchen.

I just jarred her buds. She had a persistent nanner breakout like i havent seen in a few years. I overfed her early on. But the reversal continued after the issue was corrected. She stayed a little too dark green though.

I cut her at endnof week 8. I would normally let this pheno go 10. She yielded 4.1 oz dry of good nugs and a jar of bud leaf trim and a few loose flowers. With 2 more weeks and properly tapered down feed concentration i think she would have done 5.

She is quite potent amd tastes like lemons, earth and fuel. Pretty smooth right off the branch. But that fuelly lemon could use a cure of course.

This is the second time i had bad nanners and the weed was phenominal.


Unfortunately the best plants seem to be longer flowering and not so stable. Lol.

 

[3 balls]

I think your dead on the money. I very often do a pretty hard defoliation and cut back a week or two before flip then another one (some times pretty heavy) the day of flip when they move tents. I have tried multiple ways, but this has given me great results. I will then hit fan leaves that are blocking bud sites a couple weeks in, and continue as needed.

The difference is I do a minimal pruning at/around flip and go back at mid week 2 to 3 and aggressively prune out whatever will end up fluff (nodes and stems that wont see light), they don't seem to mind. If they could talk, I think they would tell me thank you for getting all that dead weight off me but for all I know they would tell me, ouch, you just lost a week of flower development.

 

[Glow]

Thank you.

Ocean forest with added large perlite and botanicare pure blend pro grow only in flower after the soil depleted week 2.

And it is stripped for harvest. I wanted to show how much bud can grow from the bottom branch.

I rarely clip a leaf unless the plant seems done with it or it is 50% damaged. But i space out bushes in different stages for perpetual harvest.

Here she is straight out of the flower room. We harvest in the kitchen.

View attachment 849897
I just jarred her buds. She had a persistent nanner breakout like i havent seen in a few years. I overfed her early on. But the reversal continued after the issue was corrected. She stayed a little too dark green though.

I cut her at endnof week 8. I would normally let this pheno go 10. She yielded 4.1 oz dry of good nugs and a jar of bud leaf trim and a few loose flowers. With 2 more weeks and properly tapered down feed concentration i think she would have done 5.

She is quite potent amd tastes like lemons, earth and fuel. Pretty smooth right off the branch. But that fuelly lemon could use a cure of course.

This is the second time i had bad nanners and the weed was phenominal.


Unfortunately the best plants seem to be longer flowering and not so stable. Lol.

Very nice - good effort. I guess important here is it has nice structure and presumably there was good space around her to ensure some light to the lower buds. I SOGed for years until I calculated I'd likely get 15 years in prison:-) (too many plant numbers.. wiser to go larger and less numbers) I would never even think about defoliating anything (why bother?) in SOG..