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Duds; Is It A Virus?

Discussion in 'Advanced Techniques & Problems' started by Ricksauce, Dec 19, 2015.

  1. Greetings All:

    The purpose of this message is to bring awareness and resolution to an unidentified pathogen that has the ability to severely impact the entire cannabis industry and likely already is. Cases are confirmed in California and Colorado.

    Below is a clear description of the symptoms this plant pathogen causes and supporting information, pictures and links to help identify it. We hope to use our community of breeders, growers, pathologists and scientists to solve this problem before it becomes an epidemic.

    First off, we are not pathologists, we are independent researchers and farmers, but we feel confident that this pathogen is a virus. It causes massive crop loss, widespread reduction in yields and may well be causing high concentrations of calcium oxalate crystals in cannabis, which is harmful to humans. The following is a summary of symptoms of the disease caused by this pathogen:

    In Veg:

    • Lack of apical dominance. Plants sometime grow wider than tall.
    • No normal large fan leaf growth. Leaves are generally small and blades tend to point upward with an overall “spiky” appearance.

    • The plants have an unusual branch structure, sometimes referred to as “witch-brooming.” Branches often bow down instead of growing up at a steep angle.
    • Short spacing in between nodes, often bunching up with a section of unusually colored stem.
    • Very brittle stems. Branches are thin, weak and rubbery and easily break off and flop around.
    • General lack of vigor and water uptake is impaired.

    In Flowering:

    • Overall irregular development. Plants look impaired, behind schedule, and flowers are generally “larfy.” .
    • Slow metabolism. Lack of water uptake.
    • Chlorosis/yellowing. Tends to look nitrogen deficient. This starts at the bottom and moves upward.
    • Lack of resin and trichome production. Weak smell.

    • Leaf death

    • Wilting and often total plant death over time.
    **Thanks OnTheCrush

    The disease caused by this pathogen is often mistaken for broad mite infestation. This is not a broad mite problem. Infected plants have tested clean for insects, mites of all kinds and for all the major fungal infections, including: Pythium, Fusarium, Rhizoctonia, Verticillium, and Phytophthora.

    Infected plants have however, tested positive for Tobacco Mosaic Virus (TMV). Several online message threads have this disease as labeled “duds” or “duds syndrome.” Attached below are links to several relevant threads that illustrate the severity of this problem. There is no evidence that TMV causes “Duds,” just that TMV was confirmed in some samples from plants infected with “Duds.”

    There seems to be a higher visible infection rate amongst farmers that keep mother plants of popular genetics, particularly, Gorilla Glue #4, OG, Girl Scout Cookies and Sour Diesel. People who clone from previous generations before flowering tend to have far less concentrations of visible infection. This does not mean the plants aren’t infected or that yields are not reduced substantially.

    Our goal with this message is to find people, farmers and professionals that can help identify and solve this problem before it gets worse. Also, if any existing stocks of uninfected major genetic lineages can be identified, it is prudent that they be protected and preserved before they are exposed. If you think you’ve experienced this problem, please respond to this message with any information about your experience you’re willing to provide.

    Healthy on left, infected on right (in veg)


    Healthy on left, infected on right (in flower)


    Links with valuable information and history:
    angelina, Crippy, Homesteader and 9 others like this.
  2. Collection of other examples from various threads of Duds in all stages
    Dudding in flower 1.jpg
    duds in dried flowers side by side.jpg
    dried duds 2.jpg
  3. Good stuff.. thank you.

    Not saying that TMV is the cause.. but if it tests positive for it.

    Ive kinda argued this over the years with smokers and handling cannabis.. Its a possible link.. I'll have to read the links provided..
    Blaze and jumpincactus like this.
  4. Great work. Been watching your progress over at I-c-mag. Thanks for sharing.
    jumpincactus likes this.
  5. I dont think it has anything to do with smoking. I've been smoking and handling cannabis for over 20 years and I've had zero issues. If smoking had anything to do with this it would be much wider spread than it is and I would be the most likely to have issues. I smoke like a chimney and almost alwsys have a cig hanging from my mouth. What evidence do you have to support this arguing you have been doing over the years?
  6. The smoke isn't how TMV is spread.. I think its a legitimate concern for say a person that dips, handles leaves or has contact with TMV infected crop, then touches cannabis crop.

    The point is to reduce the possibility of TMV infection to the crop, your stance is literally identical to the naysayers over the years.. "theres no way, it could happen".. however TMV is tested positive in the duds, as stated in the OP.

    TMV seems not to be isolated to tobacco either or cannabis duds. I used to worry about it with my tomato plants, knowing that it could infect other species is a problem not just for tobacco or tomatoes, and now possibly cannabis.

    Id rather not tempt fate with some of the clones I have, sanitize my scissors.. wash my hands, and dont smoke in the garden, and anything with signs of dudding gets tossed out.

    However you can do whatever you like.. makes no diff to me.
    dankninja and Canalchemist like this.
  7. I would agree with handling tmv tobacco crops then handling cannabis but that's not what you said. "Smokers and handling cannabis". Fortunately for me I'm a full time cannabis farmer and don't know anyone working in the tobacco industry. Don't know any cannibas farmers that work in the tobacco fields by day and cannabis farms at night either. Like I said do you have any evidence whatsoever to link smoking cigarettes to duds or do you just like spending years arguing without facts to back up your position. I have no proof that smoking has nothing to do with duds except the fact that I know a lot of smokers with no issues with duds. Seems like at least one of the many weed farmers I know that smoke would have a problem if there was a connection
  8. lets stop muddling up the thread on the first page. We are talking duding plants, and what the cause might be. Not if smokers can cause virus to spread from tobacco to cannabis. Yes it's seems like a possibility, lets move on. It obviously can transmit to cannabis, how isn't really important until we find out what the cause of duds really is.
  9. Your right we should wait until further in the thread. How about page 29 Then I can brag about my breeding skills and hype my cuts like you did in the other dud thread. Pot calling the kettle black. At least there is suspicion of smoking and tobacco relating to duds and i think that it is very relevant to the topic at hand. I don't see how you passing out cuts to people that kill them and hyping your hasan or whatever you call it has anything at all to do with the issue. You thread
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
  10. jumpincactus

    jumpincactus Premium Member Supporter

    I am not convinced that because the duds plants test positive for TMV that TMV is the issue. Could be coincidence, Reason I say that is based on the pictures I have seen concerning the mystery duds noting Ive seen look like a TMV infection.

    Infections from TMV arent isolated to smokers. The virus can live in soil for long periods of time. It can be passed on thru clones, visits to others grow rooms/sitesm etc etc.

    Host and symptoms[edit]
    Tobacco mosaic virus symptoms on tobacco
    Tobacco mosaic virus symptoms on orchid
    Like other plant pathogenic viruses, TMV has a very wide host range and has different effects depending on the host being infected. The tobacco mosaic virus has been known to cause a production loss for flue cured tobacco of up to two percent in North Carolina.[18] It is known to infect members of nine plant families, and at least 125 individual species, including tobacco, tomato, pepper(all members of the useful Solanaceae), cucumbers, and a number of ornamental flowers.[19] There are many different strains. The first symptom of this virus disease is a light green coloration between the veins of young leaves. This is followed quickly by the development of a "mosaic" or mottled pattern of light and dark green areas in the leaves. Rugosity may also be seen where the infected plant leaves display small localized random wrinkles. These symptoms develop quickly and are more pronounced on younger leaves. Its infection does not result in plant death, but if infection occurs early in the season, plants are stunted. Lower leaves are subjected to "mosaic burn" especially during periods of hot and dry weather. In these cases, large dead areas develop in the leaves. This constitutes one of the most destructive phases of tobacco mosaic virus infection. Infected leaves may be crinkled, puckered, or elongated. However, if TMV infects crops like grape and apple, it is almost symptomless.
    Og Gong and sixstring like this.
  11. Read into it however you want.. I'd like to eliminate any possible transmission TMV that would cause duding in my clones, or stop any behaviors that could infect a crop...

    My point is why risk the possiblity of infection..

    Fuck tobacco, I'd rather smoke a bowl in the garden..
    realeyes likes this.
  12. Seamaiden

    Seamaiden Living dead girl

    I honestly think it's a mistake to stay focused on tobacco mosaic virus when there are others that are just as bad and problematic, and that could also be involved.

    Also, let's not quibble over insignificant shit here, can we please? You smoke what you wanna smoke, or not.
    CelticEBE and mittenmedgrow like this.
  13. Stop trolling man. I just commented on a post that Grow God made, then he asked about the Hassan. Nobody is hyping anything, and the Hasan isn't available to anybody, so what good is hyping it? Can we stay on track bud? On page one you have now derailed this thread twice. Do we need to call a mod in?
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
  14. Agreed and I apologize. One of these days people like rick sauce and we solidarity will figure this out with science not speculation and I pray that day comes before it affects my livelihood. Thanks again for the hard work you guys are putting in to save us all. I just hope you share with the community when you find the solution and not try to get rich the way the pharmaceutical company's will when they find a cure for cancer.
    Og Gong, Sativied, Seamaiden and 2 others like this.
  15. I'd like to eliminate that possiblity of tobacco use.. but I think its more like you said.

    I wonder if the cuts over time loose their ablity to fight a viral infection.. Just throwing it out there.. GG4/GSC geeze.. Ive done hundreds of clippings I'm worried about the dud problem. Perhaps it just sits there till the plant literally gets weak and then the duding appears, theory anyways.

    I hold my cuttings in hydro also to keep them from getting infected from soil. .. Guess I'm paranoid, but its good for me. No complains about my cuts being contaminated.. Especially when I have to bring cuts from out of the area.
    Seamaiden and jumpincactus like this.
  16. All duds did not test positive for TMV. One set did. Could have been a false positive. Others may have been false negative. Causality is inconclusive so far - this needs more work.
    CelticEBE, Og Gong, Sativied and 5 others like this.
  17. bdank


    i don't post much if at all but i do have experience with "duds" or "plant aids".
    -The pictures and description are spot on for what i sometimes get.
    -Ive taken many clones (100 of a single mother) and have gotten 2 or 3 duds in the process ( seems that they came from the
    bottom low light branches).
    -Ive noticed that sometimes they seem to veg out of the small leaf phase.
    -All the plants have been in cloner, flood table, and drip system together and the other plants don't seem to contract.
    -i had a plant exhibit half these "traits" on one side and perfectly healthy the other half (in tupur, bruce banner).
    cocoJoe likes this.
  18. TMV can also be transmitted through seeds as well, I am sure everyone knows this I thought I would mention it.
    dankninja, Ricksauce and GrwrGoneWild like this.
  19. ken dog

    ken dog

    Duds virus? ... No such animal... Take better clones.
    Ina and Sativied like this.
  20. Its possible that it isn't a virus.. An abiotic condition like you mentioned could cause a dud.