Dwc Root Rot/sludge Keeps Reappearing

[Greengrower8]

From week to week this brownish root sludge just keeps popping up. It’s so incredibly frustrating. One week the roots look great, the next they are all sludged up. I don’t understand why this keeps happening. I change the water every week. Most recently this sludge showed up about one day after water change - but not in all of them. A different group of buckets is due for a water change in a couple days and those roots look fine. New white roots are growing along side the sludgy ones (when there is sludge, that is) - usually on different sides of the baskets, but sometimes they are entangled within the sludgy ones. They are all treated and fed the same and this sludge seems to pop up totally randomly.

If I never looked at the roots, I would never think there is a problem. They are growing and progressing well, all green, etc.

I do use tap (well) water, but I have done so for a while and never had such back and forth problems with this sludge. I’m not sure how I could even use RO water, etc - I would need 50-100gal each week. I dunno how people do this.

Air and water temps hold pretty steady at 70 degrees.
Humidity around 40%.
pH at 6.0
They have been vegging for about 4 weeks.
Feed them GH trio - 20ml micro, 20ml grow, 10ml flower per 5gal bucket. Also use Hydrogaurd every week - 10ml per bucket. Sometimes this Hydrogaurd clears up the sludge overnight. Sometimes it seems to do nothing.

Can anyone help me cure this problem? Is there something else I can treat this with like Great White, etc? I don’t know what else I can do to give these plants what they need. Thanks all!!

 

[FarmerDaniel]

sounds like not enough oxygen to the roots and some root rot.

Could be certain spots are clogged up and not flowing and others are which would account for some healthy roots and some not so healthy. Give a little more information on your DWC setup. Could your water not be turned over enough so that oxy levels are reduced?

 

[Greengrower8]

They are getting tons of oxygen with new air stones. Pumps do 951gph (8 outputs). Nothing is clogged.

 

[FarmerDaniel]

I had a system I thought for sure was also getting enough oxygen but there was one spot that was screwing it all up. Air stones don't really oxygenate the water as much as you think when they are stuffed in a bucket.

how is the pump set up? pumping all the time? timer?

And it's only happening to some of the plants not all?

 

[Greengrower8]

I’m not sure what you mean by one spot screwing it up. ALL the buckets are bubbling very well. They either have a 1.5” diameter round or 4” flat air stone in them. If air stones don’t work well enough then what am I supposed to be using?? These air stones and pumps are the absolute basics of a DWC setup and they obviously work. Saying that air stones don’t oxygenate the water well enough doesn’t make much sense to me, because they clearly do - assuming all the other factors are in line. Something is outta whack, but it’s not the air stones. I have a few different air pumps. They run 24/7. I have a group of buckets running off a 380gph (8 outputs) and they don’t have rot. The pump running the buckets where rot is present is more than twice as powerful. I have used these pumps and this setup over several grows without these problems. In the past, the biggest problem with this has been water temperature. But the water has been a steady 68-70 for weeks now. I’m still trying to get the room cooler but it’s very difficult. Even with an air conditioner and an in-line fan blowing cold outside air in.

 

[FarmerDaniel]

"one spot screwing it up", one stagnant spot. A spot where a clump of shit gathers together for some reason. One spot where things just aren't moving. I dont know what your shit looks like because you didn't post a pic so I'm just trying to help.

I'm not saying airstones don't work. I'm pointing out that there is a limit to their oxygenation powers. I run a tropical fish business for a living so I can tell you what works better when it comes to oxygenating water and airstones suck my balls compared to just sticking an airline in there without anything restricting the airflow. Just let the big bubbles flow and use a valve to reduce it if your air pump is a beast and that's way better than airstones. Plus it won't get clogged from salt buildup which can restrict airstones flow very quickly. Airstones oxygenating powers come from the fact that they move water. The actual air being pumped through the stone is not dissolving oxygen at a rapid rate and is not a big source of what dissolves into the water. The airstone moves water and that gets water to the surface which is where oxygen can be transferred more rapidly. Aquaculture facilities use really expensive oxygen injection injections systems because they're just to stupid to know about airstones...:D

Your water temp is fine around 70. Plenty of oxygen able to dissolve at 70. DWC leaves a lot to be desired in terms of a growing system in my opinion

I'm not trying to tell you what your problem is; I'm merely making suggestions and trying to help you move forward in figuring this out because sometimes you just have to keep thinking and troubleshooting. Your pumps are flowing and air is moving so...sounds like you got it.

 

[jumpincactus]

Have you ever had your well water tested. take some pics of this sludge you refer to. Also is it just the water that is sludge like or are the roots themselves weak and covered in slime. This would indicate root rot.

I'm leaning towards your source water possibly being part of your problem. Well water can contain all types of nefarious pathogens. I had a partner years ago used well water and nothing helped his hydro setup until he sourced a RO system and then all problems disappeared.

 

[Greengrower8]

I'm not saying airstones don't work. I'm pointing out that there is a limit to their oxygenation powers. I run a tropical fish business for a living so I can tell you what works better when it comes to oxygenating water and airstones suck my balls compared to just sticking an airline in there without anything restricting the airflow. Just let the big bubbles flow and use a valve to reduce it if your air pump is a beast and that's way better than airstones. Plus it won't get clogged from salt buildup which can restrict airstones flow very quickly. Airstones oxygenating powers come from the fact that they move water. The actual air being pumped through the stone is not dissolving oxygen at a rapid rate and is not a big source of what dissolves into the water. The airstone moves water and that gets water to the surface which is where oxygen can be transferred more rapidly. Aquaculture facilities use really expensive oxygen injection injections systems because they're just to stupid to know about airstones...:D

Your water temp is fine around 70. Plenty of oxygen able to dissolve at 70. DWC leaves a lot to be desired in terms of a growing system in my opinion

I'm not trying to tell you what your problem is; I'm merely making suggestions and trying to help you move forward in figuring this out because sometimes you just have to keep thinking and troubleshooting. Your pumps are flowing and air is moving so...sounds like you got it.

You have totally blown my mind with regard to these air stones. I have removed them all and just have the air lines submerged. I actually have done this in a pinch cuz I ran out of air stones, but I didn’t think the straight air flow and the rather large bubbling it created were better than the tiny little bubbles the air stones produce. Duh. What was I thinking. No restrictions means more air which means more oxygen and that’s what it’s all about. I’m glad you set me straight about this. Thank you.

I rinsed all the sludge off of the effected roots and cleaned out the buckets and refilled them with just water and 10ml of Hydrogaurd. They sat like this overnight.
After reading and posting about this on a different message board, someone suggested that the nutrients I’m using don’t mix together and that causes slime, etc. I just use the GH trio. They suggested using canna terra. However, I find it extremely hard to believe that these GH nutes that are made to be used together would create slime, etc on their own. These are the only nutes I’ve ever used, so I can’t really say what would work better. But I’ve also used them and had no problems whatsoever. So I’m not really jumping to switch nutes. It’s all just NPK anyway right? Who cares what brand it is.
These plants have been vegging for about a month so the nutes I would typically add at this point would be 20/20/10ml per bucket of micro, grow and flower. However, I’m thinking about cutting this in half to further reduce the chance of buildup.

 

[Greengrower8]

Have you ever had your well water tested. take some pics of this sludge you refer to. Also is it just the water that is sludge like or are the roots themselves weak and covered in slime. This would indicate root rot.

I'm leaning towards your source water possibly being part of your problem. Well water can contain all types of nefarious pathogens. I had a partner years ago used well water and nothing helped his hydro setup until he sourced a RO system and then all problems disappeared.

I have thought about this. But — I would need about 100gal of RO water per week. I have no idea how this would be possible. I honestly have no idea how people use RO water on any decent sized grow. Unless they have some sort of purification system in their home. Cuz buying and simply transporting this much water is crazy talk. Maybe I’m missing something. I’d love to have cleaner water. But I have no idea how this would be possible.

 

[Kpc0721]

I have thought about this. But — I would need about 100gal of RO water per week. I have no idea how this would be possible. I honestly have no idea how people use RO water on any decent sized grow. Unless they have some sort of purification system in their home. Cuz buying and simply transporting this much water is crazy talk. Maybe I’m missing something. I’d love to have cleaner water. But I have no idea how this would be possible.

I’ve used GH 3 part same as you for years with water temps reaching up to 78 at times and never experienced root rot, I also would never change the water in the buckets unless I started getting huge ph swings. I think your problem is your well water, everything else you’re doing seems good. I’d personally ditch the GH notes and go to a simple powder nute like Supernatural or veg bloom, I switched and never looked back.

As far as using 100 gallons of r.o a week, that’s nothing. Get yourself a R.O filter and a 50gal barrel and you could go through hundreds of gallons a week if you wanted to. Cost to get that setup is around $300, maybe less depending on the r.o system and if you can buy a used or new 50gal, I paid $50 for mine used and just bleach cleaned it and it’s been perfect. I really think it just comes down to your water quails to start. Also idk what Ppms you run but Less is always more in hydro. Just find the ppm around where it stays steady and doesn’t drop or raise and keep it in that area, mines usually around 5-800 depending on size of plants and what lights and stage they’re in, my monster sized trees that I do 1 plant per 5x5 feed 800 max, and those fuckers are huge.

 

[Greengrower8]

I’ll have to look into an RO system if they are that inexpensive.

Good to hear that my assumptions about GH 3 part are confirmed. I’ll look into something simpler, but the fact is I’m comfortable and very familiar with using these nutes - I’d rather not fuss around with a different regiment. Unless there is a big upside to switching.

I have measured ppms periodically. My well water out of the tap is about 350. They run about 1000 after being fed. I haven’t been diligent enough to test them regularly to see how much they eat, etc. Although I’ve read this info can be very useful. Dealing with these other root rot issues has been monopolizing my time.

 

[Kpc0721]

I’ll have to look into an RO system if they are that inexpensive.

Good to hear that my assumptions about GH 3 part are confirmed. I’ll look into something simpler, but the fact is I’m comfortable and very familiar with using these nutes - I’d rather not fuss around with a different regiment. Unless there is a big upside to switching.

I have measured ppms periodically. My well water out of the tap is about 350. They run about 1000 after being fed. I haven’t been diligent enough to test them regularly to see how much they eat, etc. Although I’ve read this info can be very useful. Dealing with these other root rot issues has been monopolizing my time.

Yea it’s well worth the money, when I first started I used to go to the store with 3 5gal jugs and that was a pain in the ass, the R.O was such a great investment. Supernatural is what I use and it’s the easiest shit ever to use and my girls love it. It takes any guess work and makes feeding is much faster and simpler, I’m telling you after you use the rest of your GH notes scrap that and try Supernatural. I did a side by side with that and veg bloom and saw no difference imo. Get the r.o system, get some supernatural and you’ll be golden.

350ppm is really high and you don’t know what’s in there already so that’s just asking for issues, plus running 1000ppm high for DWC unless you’re growing trees. It’s super simple to test your ppm sway, just set it at 700 to start and check 12 or 24 hours later, if it’s gone up you need higher ppm and if it’s gone down then you need lower, just have to find that sweet spot where it doesn’t really sway at all. I set mine at 700ppm yesterday and just checked it and it’s at 600 ppm so that tells me they want more so today I’ll set at 750 and see if still goes down. My temps have been hitting 78 in the rdwc system I just built and the roots are perfectly white and healthy, plants look awesome too, most people would think water temps like that are crazy but starting with clean water is the key imo.

 

[Greengrower8]

I’m confused about your ppm statements. First you said set it at a specific level and check it in 12-24 hours. If it goes up then set it higher, if it goes down then set it lower - which really doesn’t make sense to me. Then you said if it’s at 700 and then it goes down to 600 then set it higher to 750 which contradicts what you first said (if it goes down, set it lower)??
Also, regardless of which way to adjust it, I have no idea how much of a single nutrient, let alone a trio of nutrients, to add to get the ppm to increase 100ppm or whatever. That is a ton of trial and error, adding and subtracting nutrients. It sounds like a huge pain in the ass. This is another reason I haven’t been measuring this, cuz it doesn’t sound as easy as everyone says.

 

[Kpc0721]

I’m confused about your ppm statements. First you said set it at a specific level and check it in 12-24 hours. If it goes up then set it higher, if it goes down then set it lower - which really doesn’t make sense to me. Then you said if it’s at 700 and then it goes down to 600 then set it higher to 750 which contradicts what you first said (if it goes down, set it lower)??
Also, regardless of which way to adjust it, I have no idea how much of a single nutrient, let alone a trio of nutrients, to add to get the ppm to increase 100ppm or whatever. That is a ton of trial and error, adding and subtracting nutrients. It sounds like a huge pain in the ass. This is another reason I haven’t been measuring this, cuz it doesn’t sound as easy as everyone says.

Oh shit my bad! I wrote it backwards at first.

If ppm drops they need higher ppm
If ppm raises they need a lower ppm

That’s the tricky part with doing a multiple part nutrient line like that, you have to know exactly what the plants want so you don’t over or under do it with N, P or K. Using a powder like supernatural takes all that guess work away. I just sprinkle in more powder to raise my PPM and get it exactly where I want and don’t have to worry about how much of each they’re getting because it’s already balanced for you..it’s seriously the easiest thing ever using powders and soooo much faster than dosing out each bottle in the right increments. Like I said, I will NEVER go back to GH after using veg bloom or supernatural, I’ve gotten all of my buddies to switch once they see my plants killing it.

Make your life easier and get an r.o and some supernatural and then thank me later when you’re never having to worry about root rot or deficiencies lol

 

[Badrice]

Another note on well water and RO, as I had this problem is water pressure, the RO systems usually need pretty good water pressure to operate correctly, if yours is low (40-60psi) you might want to use some sort of booster pump to achieve the correct operating pressure for the RO system.

 

[FarmerDaniel]

Definitely get an RO system if you're serious about water quality. We've got a 75 gallon per day 4 stage that we get 0ppm from. Check out bulk reef supply they've got good units and the price is right.

My tapwater comes out about 130ppm. About 50 calcium and 40 magnesium so it's great top off water for my aquaponics. I either top off with RO or tapwater depending on what I need. At 350 who knows what you've got. You very well could be starting off with way too much calcium or magnesium which could eventually lead to problems. And see mentioned who knows what else. RO gives you a blank slate and it's really not that expensive especially if it makes your stuff run smoother and easier.

As far as how much to add to get a certain ppm, here's the math.

11% feDTPA chelated iron.

The goal for aquaponics iron levels is 7.58 mg/gallon or 2 ppm, or 2mg/liter they are all the same amount. So using your 2mg/l which is the same as ppm you can do some math and arrive at an answer if how much of anything to add.

So for my 11% iron I'll calculate that all out.

I want 7.58mg/gallon. 7.58x165 gallons in my system means I want to get about 1250mg into my system of iron. Or 1.25 grams.

Now I have to divide that 1.25 grams by 11% because the iron I have is only 11%>

So 1.25g/.11=11.36 grams to reach my desired concentration of 2ppm or 2mg/l or 7.58mg/g in my 165 gallon system

Then I weigh out the powder to find a grams to tsp conversion and it's about 2 tsp of the 11% feDTPA powder that I have

Works the same for anything just use the percentage on the package. Liquid is slightly different because then you need to know how much of what is in there this only works for things with everything clearly stated about how much of what is in there

 

[Greengrower8]

First off, thanks for all the great info everyone here has provided. You guys rock!

5 stage RO filter ordered. I will get it early next week. My own fault for not researching this long ago - I always just assumed a filter system like this was way more expensive.

I went out and bought 25gal of RO water and I have replaced 6 of the buckets that are having the most trouble. And nothing is really in nightmare trouble - it’s just like one side of ugly roots and one side of beautiful roots. Or beautiful roots growing out of ugly ones. In any case, it’s stunting growth big time, and I’m tired of futzing around with it. Hopefully well water is the ultimate culprit with all this. It seems like I have dealt with and corrected anything else it could be.

 

[Kpc0721]

First off, thanks for all the great info everyone here has provided. You guys rock!

5 stage RO filter ordered. I will get it early next week. My own fault for not researching this long ago - I always just assumed a filter system like this was way more expensive.

I went out and bought 25gal of RO water and I have replaced 6 of the buckets that are having the most trouble. And nothing is really in nightmare trouble - it’s just like one side of ugly roots and one side of beautiful roots. Or beautiful roots growing out of ugly ones. In any case, it’s stunting growth big time, and I’m tired of futzing around with it. Hopefully well water is the ultimate culprit with all this. It seems like I have dealt with and corrected anything else it could be.

Good deal man, I think you’re taking care of the biggest suspect of your issue with the new RO system, won’t have to guess anymore.

I honestly can’t see how you’ll have problems as long as you’re doing everything right and keeping it simple. I’d lower your ppms until they’re growing strong again, start around 4-500

 

[Greengrower8]

Over the past few days, I have changed most of my buckets with store bought RO water as I await my RO filter system. They seem to love it so far. I have had to adjust the pH a bit on most of them 1-3 days after the change to RO. Nothing crazy, but most were out of range. I thought I wouldn’t have to pH adjust them as much with this RO water being about 5.8. But so far they do, but that’s easy to maintain.

What’s more interesting are the ppms. This RO water started at 25ppm. What I would normally add to them - 20/20/10ml per bucket of GH micro, grow and flower. Also add 10ml of Hydrogaurd per bucket. That’s it. The actual water amount in each 5gal bucket is slightly more than 3.5gal. All of this shows a tds of about 660ppm. Which is A LOT lower than I thought it would be. The handful of buckets I haven’t changed to RO, granted they haven’t been flushed in a week or so, have a tds of about 1050. And a few of them are very happy that way and look great. Some not so much. Either way — they are all getting changed over to RO.
I’m not at all anxious to start upping the nutes/ppm, etc. Most of these plants look great. But they are getting quite big - most 16”-24” tall - if I were more confident on some of their roots they’d be getting flipped to 12/12 already. I just don’t want to be selling them short as far as nutrients go, now that I see what the actual ppms are.

Thanks again all!!

 

[DetGrnThumb]

I'd stay away from any living beneficials, run a hypochlorous product such as UC Roots from Current Culture or Watermax from Clean Grow and try to get those temps around 62-64 degrees. 70 is just getting too close to the danger zone for comfort. If you just have to use live bennies Botanicare Hydroguard is a good substitute to get rid of the bad stuff while keeping the good. Your water temps are crucial as that 72° threshold is where you're seeing a breeding ground for bacteria such as pythium. Plus, the colder the water, the more DO it holds keeping a much healthier environment for your roots