Ethics In Breeding

[homebrew420]

These statements here ^^^ are correct in my eyes. I take no offense. I was simply pointing out that regardless of True breeding or not one finds traits desired and will be added to others, these are often found within F1 populations. You are correct I have fallen victim to some extent in using incorrect terminology sometimes.
Sorry for harsh tones as none were intended. In rereading my post I was doing a piss poor job of being clear.

Peace

 

[homebrew420]

I do believe it would be fairly easy,within a few years to achieve a true breeding(for a number of traits) cultivar in a basement. BOG.
@shemshemet I was refering to growing out seed of (gerenally) polyhybids varieties, where parents are unknown. Dont know I missed some of these things. oops. sorry broham.

 

[RandyPickles]

The most important rule I believe any breeder, closet or ranch, should follow is simply: Be honest about what you know of the seed. If it's an untested homemade cross of two bagseeds, that's fine as long as I know that's what's going in my garden. No one gets to take credit for nature, sorry egos.

 

[chicagokh7]

true breeding = many years of work for a single strain

 

[coloradoBTC]

. i know my plants are on the main land with a fake name and story .

this is a long shot but is the strain called "paka'lua"?

 

[shemshemet]

Here's an overall take. Like Juan said, if you are buying seeds from seed cos or finding bagseed or getting rare clones from you buddy, crossing one strain to another is not seed company breeding. What you are doing is mixing genetics, and you can find great plants this way. You can find spectacular plants this way.

But it is not good breeding practice, and to purchase those seeds is a like playing the lottery.

To be a good breeder, you will have found your mother and father plants (wherever you got them - seed, clone, F1 landrace, F928, you shit it out of your ass) by the way of progeny testing. Once you know that specific plant (or group of plants) breeds true (hopefully for multiple traits, but can be just one), and by breed true I mean passes desired traits to its offspring quite readily, you can cross this plant to another plant that breeds true for some other traits.

If the lines are separate enough to begin with, you can get some serious hybrid vigor. These are the seeds that the commercial guys should like. Vigorous, consistent lines.

If you just want to find some crazy dank bud, you can do it easily by crossing anything dank to anything dank and crossing your fingers. But the results will (usually) not be consistent, and you shouldn't be selling this stuff as if it is the next big thing.

I do see some breeders selling seeds of crossing similar to my explanation, but they tell you what you are getting. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[shemshemet]

yeah i agree to sell it as a specific strain you have to do the x then if you dont bx and stabilize then you cant really sell a strain you x 1 time with other stiff n say when it pops it will come out like the picture they have posted. thats just uncool and they would do better to let us know as some of us would buy those seeds in the crap shoot. but yeah if you are honest about it n say i got the original from this dude n its this x with that. but some dude was trashing me cuz i said that because he wouldnt give me a few training day beans n if i didnt have the cash i couldnt get them before they sell out n its a limited line id just do my own breed n cross the LA con from DNA seeds and a trainwreak of my choosing. if i can find my camera ill take a picture of a example of a plant that doesnt look the best but has a effect worth saving....

I personally do not believe back crossing is the way to make a strain. It is definitely a tool in the breeding arsenal, but I do not believe that is the way to finalize a hybrid strain.

Back-crossing would be better suited to stabilizing a line.

Example:
Find your parent lines. Lets say a landrace called LR and the other is HB.

First you want to stabilize LR.
Grow out your LR seeds cross them and select into the next generation (many ways to do this step).
LR2 might give some nice plants so you choose a few of the best.
LR3 is starting to look more like you want, again select and cross.
Keep going until things are really looking like you want.
IF you find a plant you REAALLLY like, this is where you might backcross.
You should be stabilizing LR to your liking, and doing the same process to your HB line.

At this point LR and HB are completely separate.

Once the seeds start coming out the way you want, you find your parent plant (by the way of progeny testing).

Cross your final LR parent to your final HB parent.

This is a good hybrid.


The counter to this is crossing the best LR from your original seed to your best HB from original seed. Then backcrossing that cross to one of the parents. This is NOT a good hybrid, it is an excuse.

 

[MrBelvedere]

thanks for sharing nice technic. yeah bx to stabilize so we get the plant in the picture HGS seeds is good about the pic matching the seed. atm i have this wikid malawi x with a NYC legend but i chose a specific malawi dad plant that had a very distinct trait of making the pods do a 1 to 2 layer single leaf and single pods spiral structure... now to think it might have been a blueberry x as it gradually picked up. in effect. its like a helix going up the stem 1 -2 pods thick at the most. a little color, i have several beans from her was gonna bx and new x it. not a yielder but i got a nice malawi effect in 7weeks or so, cool looking plant, gonna be nice when we can land scape with cannabis. some plants just look great not yielders but look great.

What are the ethics of landscaping with cannabis?

 

[420circuit]

Lot of seed selling mentioned but not much about genetic preservation. My little garden means a lot to me and the strains running are all near and dear, but there isn't room to keep every strain running so it can be cloned, so I am starting to look to seed making to save strains to run again and to pass around.

If I buy a breeder's pack, select the best male and female, and make seeds, not to sell, but to have around to grow again... Is this ethical? I asked a similar question recently on another forum and got a clear answer from several growers that as long as credit is given, it's cool, even if you wanted to sell the seeds. I'd be uncomfortable with selling someone else's work personally, but could get over it if the money was THAT important. But as far as a method, does this method make sense for genetic preservation purposes?

 

[420circuit]

I think the answer is yes, but would like to see if someone knows of a better or easier way to keep my favorite genetics around.:D

 

[420circuit]

I seem to have awakened some deeply held feelings there juan, hope everything works out OK. The future looks great from where I sit, there are lots of people working to hybridize more strains than ever and I think we will see better quality plants in every area as time goes by. Guess if I pay a hundred bucks for a pack of seeds I can do anything I want with them, including using them to breed seeds for sale. Not my cup-o-tea, but good to understand the ethics in the established breeding community, such as it is. What I am curious about, and the reason I posted here, is to ask expert seed makers if this method, simply inbreeding a couple choice plants from a breeder's pack is a sensible way to preserve the genetics for future use in my garden and to share. Seems to be, but if there is a better way, please post it up.

As far as how to preserve the strains that I no longer have seeds for and the clone only strains, heard about a technique to produce seeds on a female plant, I think it was called reversing with some sort of spray, maybe colloidal silver? Not sure how that works, but I would love to save a couple strains somehow. The first thing was to spread them around, which I have done, but it would be nice to have seeds on the shelf for when I get a hankerin' for a particular smoke.

 

[shemshemet]

420-

Not an expert but I am knowledgeable in plant genetics enough to answer your question, and the answer is not what you want to hear but: It depends.

If you are simply looking to preserve the genetics in some way, this will be fine. But you will not necessarily get exactly what you are looking for.

If you purchase a true F1 hybrid, the F2 generation is going to have much more variation, differing from your original pack. It is possible that you will find some similar to what you have seen, but not like your original pack.

If you purchase a more likely back-crossed hybrid of some sort (lots of cannabis breeders sell seeds as F1, but in reality it is an F-something backcrossed to the parents. You will end up with the same variability if not more in your seed generation.

If you purchase landrace seeds, this is how you can expect to find similar plants to your original pack. But remember, when you buy a landrace you are starting off with much more variability already.

If you purchase an IBL, in theory you should be able to cross any two plants, and you will get something very similar to your original pack. The problem here though, is loss of vigor. The plants have been inbred so much, with so little variation, that you can end up with inbreeding depression.

As for your clones, you can use colloidal silver, but you are still at the whim of the above situations. A selfed F1 hybrid is still an F2. This method will lead to less variation than the other methods, but it is still not perfect.

The best form of preserving genetics is to save an entire line, rather than a specific plant. The landrace example would be the best, as you make more and more selections you will be 'customizing' the line for you. In other words, picking the plants that grow best in your environment will eventually lead to plants that grow best in your environment. But also remember, the more you thin out the herd, the less variation you have, and inbreeding depression can occur, giving you plants with much less vigor. So choosing multiple parents will always be better, in terms of genetic preservation.

 

[420circuit]

Thanks for the explanation shem, sounds like this will work, but there will be some variation. Do you think the 5 day head start for the male and 25 days into flower for pollination are reasonable?

While I am certainly no expert, I do know how to make an easy to follow guide and think there is a need for a how to make seeds tutorial. Will take pictures of my next seed project and post it up to solicit feedback.

 

[shemshemet]

yeah sorry i felt if i typed it maybe it would stop popping up in my head... thanks for caring bro. if you fem it its a herm breed yeah it might not pop nuts if not stressed again but its not the exact same pheno n never can be n always has the herm trait n feel, its better to maybe dust regular and then selective breed the plants that have the trait the mom had. it takes a bit o time n know how but can get close if not the exact pheno. colloidal silver makes the nugs toxic i wouldnt do it id stress it into hermin or let it go to long in flower some will pop nut u harvest the dust...

That's not totally true juan. Just because you got a plant from male flowers on a female plant does not mean it will pass that trait on. What is happening is that if you wait for a female to pop male flowers "naturally" (ie. stress or long flowering) you ARE selecting for the trait of popping male flowers due to that stress or long flowering.

If you use collodial silver on a female plant, it will pop male flowers. The difference is that this time it is not a trait of certain plants, it is the plant reaction to the collodial silver.

There is a breeder who will do feminized seed, but only with collodial silver. And only AFTER he stresses the plants in every way to try and get them to pop male flowers "naturally". He then discards the plants that "naturally" herm, and used the collodial silver on the plants that do not carry the herm trait.

I would not smoke anything that may have been in contact with collodial silver. Especially any part of the plant that had the silver sprayed on it. And if I sprayed the silver in the room that other plants were in, I wouldn't smoke anything from any of those plants. I would not take clones after applying collodial silver.

As for selfing a plant, you can still get the exact genotype. As for the "exact pheno" well you could get that, but it would depend on your environment. Phenotype=Genotype (genetic makeup) + Environment

 

[FlyinJStable]

Reading though this whole thread seems every one says about the same.

The transparency shown by the breeder himself LONG before his 1st seed is dropped will have as big an impact on the possible outcome as the Gear itself.
The honesty and integrity to do the right thing, even when no one else sees.....
Now that is the Core Value to a great breeder vs a good one.

just Thoughts
FlyJ

 

[MrBelvedere]

n every animal hurt on a ego rampage you will pay for as if you killed another .

Let's say hypothetically I am growing on some federal land and set 50 bear traps all around my grow to protect it from rippers, and a curious squirrel smells my two unverified UK CHEESE starts and stumbles on one of the traps but he is so quick that he just gets his toenail clipped and scurrys with a pimp limp thru Autumn... and fully recovers by December... Is that ok or not?

 

[MrBelvedere]

no, your in the squirrels grounds, but i kknow a dude who tied rattlers to his plants n they were deep bush some how a hiker came on them got bit by the snake then they found him n arrested him he is in prison in new mexico or something. better to be a really good person n feed the critters n help the right people respect the land so you dont have any karmic debts, people are going to be people all you can do is be better then them with the choices you make and let it not bother you and let karma bite them if they have done wrong. killing a raoch in the wrong way or for the wrong reason can result in a karmic back lash in my observation even moving the wrong rock in the wrong way.... people still gonna do what they do and balance will always find a way no matter how smart or rich or devote a being if they done wrong then they done wrong. if that ripper is just some dumb brat n they have a cell that has service n they find traps or they get trapped then the feds come n its not just a dude growin buds but a person out to kill for money... you will have your perception this is what i see and follow, if you grow all organic n are good to the land n good to critters b them human or rabbit or roach then everything just goes smoother... wouldnt you want the forest as an allie, also your intention the real ones that your subconscious know, not what a mouth says on spendin the $ n organic vs synthetic harm is harm . it shows in our health and life happenings.

True dat squirrel grounds are squirrel grounds. I can tell you're a student of Mahatma Gandhi, Albert Schweitzer, and for sure Henry David Thoreau. I will read up on tying the rattlers to the plants. Are there humane rattlesnake leashes on Amazon?

Glad I'm not the only dude night surfing with Great Whites. We go hard on the East Coast, even when it's flat many a time we've paddled out with a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken just to see if the sharks will party with us at night. Dawn patrol is for kooks!!

I only run Earth Juice Original it is organic so nobody's tripping on that hopefully.

Can u do me a huge favor and turn on spellcheck?

 

[MrBelvedere]

Before the 15 minutes expires could you really please pleaseeeeee plz pls spellcheck that last post for me?

 

[nazarbattu]

Before the 15 minutes expires could you really please pleaseeeeee plz pls spellcheck that last post for me?

Llo I mean lol

 

[Psychonaut47]

Gorilla Glue #4 (Chemdog's Sister/Sour Dub x Chocolate Diesel)

New private breeder shows this. Only thing I've seen for gg#4

Is it true theirs a lawsuit over this Gorilla glue name? LoL I've had one out of about 15 "gorilla glues" that I enjoyed and it was more diesel than anything....