(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

[Crysmatic]

to clarify, the A and B concentrates will have a pH of 5.8 and EC2.47?

Fatman's bloom recipe is meant for 20L (5.28 usgal) so I've converted everything to grams. note that you'll use less than 10L RO water per stock solution because the salts displace some water.

Part A (10L)
Calcium Nitrate 2330
Potassium Nitrate 442
Iron Chelate 202

Part B (10L)
Potassium Nitrate 442
MonoPotassium Phosphate 697
Magnesium Sulfate 1692
Manganese Sulfate 40
Boric Acid / Solubor 55
Zinc Sulfate 44
Copper Sulfate 9
Ammonium Molybdate 0.4

Volume of Stock Solutions 10L each of A and B
Dilution Rate 100:1 (10mL/L)
I got totally different weights, pH and EC using the calculator...?

one thing I noticed is that the Ammonium Molybdate adds NH4+...so I had to break down N to 228 ppm NO3 and 11 ppm NH4+. also, can you make a 250:1 solution by adding 2.5x the salts? or will something precipitate? Do you use humic acid?

AN and GH both add about 25% N as NH4+. How is this beneficial? AN states on p.117 of their 'how to grow bigger buds' advert, that they balance anions and cations to buffer pH. Is their 'pH perfect' tech helpful? or is it just a gimmick for noobs?

 

[squarepusher]

i assume you could make a 250:1 solution by just adding 2.5x more salts. However, there does become a point where the water will become saturated and salts wont dissolve. However, I theorize you could just keep them in powdered form and then when the time comes add them directly to your res.

Calcium Nitrate, is about 88% No3, and 12% NH4 forms of nitrogen, its about a 13:1 ratio. I hear you can just leave it alone, for hydro I think No3 is really all you need but you are forced to have some NH4. Not sure what effects it has really, i hear its more for soil growing,

 

[Crysmatic]

ammonium for soil makes sense, although I don't want pH to swing very much in hydro either. another tennet of lucasism is add backs. i questionned early on that if the ratios aren't correct, the solution would eventually go out of whack (and need replacement). lucas still promoted add backs and no res dumps through flowering. if 3-1-2 is closer to ideal, then no res dumps should be ok, right?

For JK bloom formula (120-60-280-60), I get:

Part A (10L)
Calcium Nitrate 164.4
Potassium Nitrate 725.1
Iron Chelate 19.48

Part B (10L)
MgSO4 608.6
ZnSO4 0.22
MnSO4 1.54
CuSO4 0.08
Boric Acid 2.86
Ammonium Orthomolybdate 0.02

Dilution Rate 100:1 (10mL/L)

However, I get 66 ppm calcium, and 64 ppm sulphur (target 120 and 64 ppm, respectively). When I use calcium sulphate to boost calcium to 120 ppm, sulphur goes to 111 ppm. JK, do you make your bloom solution with high sulphur, low calcium, or do you have a different recipe?

thank you for all this information! everyone wants bigger, better flowers. and to be able to mix up good solution for $5 vs $150 retail for generic solution (with less than ideal ratios) is amazing.

 

[squarepusher]

ammonium for soil makes sense, although I don't want pH to swing very much in hydro either. another tennet of lucasism is add backs. i questionned early on that if the ratios aren't correct, the solution would eventually go out of whack (and need replacement). lucas still promoted add backs and no res dumps through flowering. if 3-1-2 is closer to ideal, then no res dumps should be ok, right?

For JK bloom formula (120-60-280-60), I get:

Part A (10L)
Calcium Nitrate 164.4
Potassium Nitrate 725.1
Iron Chelate 19.48

Part B (10L)
MgSO4 608.6
ZnSO4 0.22
MnSO4 1.54
CuSO4 0.08
Boric Acid 2.86
Ammonium Orthomolybdate 0.02

Dilution Rate 100:1 (10mL/L)

However, I get 66 ppm calcium, and 64 ppm sulphur (target 120 and 64 ppm, respectively). When I use calcium sulphate to boost calcium to 120 ppm, sulphur goes to 111 ppm. JK, do you make your bloom solution with high sulphur, low calcium, or do you have a different recipe?

thank you for all this information! everyone wants bigger, better flowers. and to be able to mix up good solution for $5 vs $150 retail for generic solution (with less than ideal ratios) is amazing.

good stuff. Keep us updated

 

[kuz]

I believe PPM is grams per 1000 Liters.

For example, Calicum Nitrate, which is 15.5-0-0 NPK is 15.5 % nitrogen. so to get 100 grams of nitrogen from this, you would need 100g / 15.5% = 645g of Calcium Nitrate).

So, 645 g of Calcium Nitrate with purity of 15.5-0-0 will give 100g of pure nitrogen.
Dissolving 645 g of Calcium NItrate into 1000L of water will give you 100 ppm.

thats right, its easier for me to think about ounce per gallon. 1000 Liters or 264 gallons.
100/(75x100x.155)=0.086 .086x264=22.704 oz's 22.704x28.34=643.4314 grams

 

[Crysmatic]

kuz, ppm is technically mg/L...much more manageable units. fatman's recipe is metric, and was converted to u.s. units which introduces error. there is 64.5g of calcium nitrate in 10L water...i just moved the decimal over...no fractions of fractions and junk. if you can learn the american system, you can surely rock s.i. it's especially tricky for me because a british gallon (which we use in canada) is 4.565L.

squarepusher: my question above is 'what do you do when the ingredients you have don't give you the ppm you want?' in my example, JK's bloom recipe comes up short on calcium, or too much sulphur.

also, do you use add backs? or dump your res every couple of weeks?

 

[squarepusher]

kuz, ppm is technically mg/L...much more manageable units. fatman's recipe is metric, and was converted to u.s. units which introduces error. there is 64.5g of calcium nitrate in 10L water...i just moved the decimal over...no fractions of fractions and junk. if you can learn the american system, you can surely rock s.i. it's especially tricky for me because a british gallon (which we use in canada) is 4.565L.

squarepusher: my question above is 'what do you do when the ingredients you have don't give you the ppm you want?' in my example, JK's bloom recipe comes up short on calcium, or too much sulphur.

also, do you use add backs? or dump your res every couple of weeks?

regarding when things dont match up, I would say its not too big of a deal withing 10%. If something *drastically* doesn't measure up, or you want an exact formulation, then you should consider switching your base nutrients up a bit. Generally, tweaking which nutrients you use give you an exact or very close result, although some may not be very common. For example, the 15.5-0-0 calcium nitrate is the most widely available calcium nitrate around, however it does contain about 12% of the nitrogen as ammonium form NH4. If you wanted a formula without NH4 then you would use a different calcium nitrate formula, the Calcium Nitrate Tetrahydra, which is 11.8-0-0 and contains no ammonium (NH4). On the very first post on this thread, there is a graphic upload of different fertilizer compositions that contain specific salts, you can use that to switch out alternatives.

 

[kuz]

fatman's Bloom Formula
ppm
Nitrogen 240
Phosphorus 74
Potassium 261
Magnesium 84
Calcium 235
Sulfur 111
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 82.2
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
Iron Chelate 7.14

Part B

Potassium Nitrate 15.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate 24.6
Magnesium Sulfate 59.7
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions 5.3
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.47
TDS 1729
pH 5.8

Thats really close to a tomato recipe i found from Lynette Morgan.
--A
Calcium nitrate 98
Potassium nitrate 34
Iron edta 2.4
--B
Potassium nitrate 34
MKP 28
Magnesium sulfate 52
Mn .53
Zn .07
Boric acid .26
Copper sulfate .02
Ammonium molybdate .007

About the same except she used twice as much Potassium Nitrate. I ran it through the calculator;
N 368, P 96, K 514, Mg 77, Ca 279, S 101,

I dont see a good way to ramp up to full strength, unless you started with fatmans blend at half strength and added extra Mkp, increasing it about .01 oz per gallon each week.

Supplement calcium with calcium chloride and maybe an organic protein for N and potassium sulfate if needed.

It might be just as easy to mix everything exactly as you want it, dump it in the res adding any calcium last, would that work?

 

[Jalisco Kid]

A. nitrate is good for pH swings,just do not use much.
cal-25 is a good way to add Calcium for your girls, it is just easier I do not buy into that 50% increase in harvest. I am surprised I posted here as this is one subject I hate to talk about. I had some whinners from the CW days telling me I burnt their girls all up. Problem with salts is people for get what they just weighted out and double dipped. Since my accident I have a friend watch me and I weigh out formulas for the upcoming grow and just add the pouches each rez change. I too have sat and stared at my bags asking myself what did I just pour in.
Trust no one but yourself,because you are the Master of the room and only have yourself to blame if something is not going right. JK

 

[MeJuana]

I have read the thread twice and taken a look at the links, I think I am ready to jump in do I just order the chems and go for it? I can follow what others here are already doing here too.

I have awesome environmental control C02 is full time natural gas, Aero NFT system and dirt and I want to move my whole system over to this. It is just my personal stuff 20 plants, have never managed to kill a plant, but not the end of the world if I do I would be fine cept for the cost of operations. Did anyone else with no chem background just go for this and you are doing great? I am nervous I will get in the middle and find out I should have researched a lot more, like missing chemicals to balance for PK finish or whatever.

 

[squarepusher]

It might be just as easy to mix everything exactly as you want it, dump it in the res adding any calcium last, would that work?

good question. Can any very experienced nutrients folk explain if we could simply just mix all the powdered nutrients together in the right ratio, mix well and then dump em in? (instead of 2 part formulas + micro + iron etc..)


fatman could probably answer but I have no way of contacting him (tried his ebay account but failed).

 

[MeJuana]

Didn't the kid say he makes pouches for his stuff already?

Edit is adding in quote from JK

A. nitrate is good for pH swings,just do not use much.
cal-25 is a good way to add Calcium for your girls, it is just easier I do not buy into that 50% increase in harvest. I am surprised I posted here as this is one subject I hate to talk about. I had some whinners from the CW days telling me I burnt their girls all up. Problem with salts is people for get what they just weighted out and double dipped. Since my accident I have a friend watch me and I weigh out formulas for the upcoming grow and just add the pouches each rez change. I too have sat and stared at my bags asking myself what did I just pour in.
Trust no one but yourself,because you are the Master of the room and only have yourself to blame if something is not going right. JK

 

[Crysmatic]

the calculator itself has an option to calculate dry weight added to your reservoir. those tutorials mention that adding solids directly to the res has the benefit of not needing compatible salts which you'd need in a stock solution. however, he still recommends adding npk, then micro, then iron (and DPTA is the preferred chelate).

this is grade 11 chemistry stuff...and you thought high school was useless :) where's a 16 yr old to explain this stuff? i might have paid more attention in class if there was more pragmatic explanations...like how to run a large hydroponic garden.

reading through the tutorials, it mentions that plants aren't too sensitive to sulphur...so i targeted 235 ppm Ca, and let sulphur fall where it may.

many fertilizers suggest 4 ml/L, which is 250:1. the tutorial instructions say add 1/2 the water, then all the salts, then the rest of the water. we'll know at that point if it completely dissolves.

some have suggested that silica is almost a macro nutrient - what ppm should we target? the micro nutrient ppm in fatman's bloom formula seem high (compared to GH, AN, and a couple others).

NO3 is preferred in hydro, and small amounts of NH4+ won't hurt anything.

as far as buffers go:
http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-to-have-constant-ph-in-hydroponics.html
it's a resin that acts as a buffer. apparently chemical buffers can make some micros unavailable. so AN's pH perfect is not needed :)

 

[gettanked]

also, I wanted to post some of Fatman's "suggested" formula's. I haven't double checked these, and am simply copying and pasting. Turns out, Lucas may work, but not be that great. Here are some recommended formulas for using RDWC type systems, or I'm sure would work in any system recirculating

The below formulations are for recirculation reservoir systems. They are low ammonium nitrogen fertilizations so they have lower phosphorus as typically phosphoric acid is being added quite often due to pH rises during high nitrate uptake. If you like I can make up formualtions more desirable to your growing method. Your method is more like a soil grow but with out the humus to buffer against pH rises. Your system would likely do better with lower calcium, and magnesium but higher phosphorus as one would use with a drain to waster hydro like a high pressure aero system.

fatman's Veg Formulation
ppm

Nitrogen 267
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 291
Magnesium 93
Calcium 261
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 91.5
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
Iron Chelate 7.14
Part B
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
MonoPotassium Phosphate 27.3
Magnesium Sulfate 66.4
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions
5.3 gallons
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.75
pH 5.8
TDS 1925

fatman's Bloom Formula
ppm
Nitrogen 240
Phosphorus 74
Potassium 261
Magnesium 84
Calcium 235
Sulfur 111
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 82.2
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
Iron Chelate 7.14

Part B

Potassium Nitrate 15.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate 24.6
Magnesium Sulfate 59.7
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions 5.3
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.47
TDS 1729
pH 5.8

Yes the formulations can be made in smaller batchs. Say for a 1.06 gallon batch divide each ingrediant by 5. A batch of say 5.3 gallons of concentrate means 2.65 gallons of Part A and 2.65 gallons of Part B. Not 5.3 gallons of each. The formulations should cost about $5 per each gallon of 100 to 1 concentrate.

Need some help?

What is the NPK for each of the above?

After I make the stock solution (s), how much of each one do I add to 1 gallon of water to my hydroponics system?

Thanks!

 

[2broke2smoke]

ok lets say someone that rode the short bus, like myself, wished to prepare a 3:1:2 nutrient mix from scratch, how would he/she or me go about mixing the dry ingredients? I will be honest i am not making much sense out of the info so far provided, but then again i did ride the short bus.

2b2s

 

[Lost]

but he is correct about the DO and the other technical info.

No he was not.

Let me put our disagreement this way. What gets more oxygen, submerged roots ot roots in the air. Roots in the air, period. Create enough bubble and you create an environment where it gets the best of being submerged (continual nutrient exchange), and roots in the air (highest oxygen possible).

I don't care what bs fatman had to say about it, its not my fault he can't get his mind around that simple fact. The reality is that it has been proved by everyone that has done DWC. There is an airstone in the res under the roots. Every try it without?

Im the asshole for pointing that out?

 

[2broke2smoke]

Take any one of the numbers below

Potassium Nitrate 15.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate 24.6
Magnesium Sulfate 59.7
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions 5.3
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.47
TDS 1729
pH 5.8

My question is are you saying that the measurement for Potassium Nitrate 15.6 is 15.6 ounces of dry powder or same is true of Magnesium Sulfate 59.7 is 59.7 ounces? I am really lost on the measurements. I am not concerned about the O2 uptake issue being hashed out here, all I care about is how to mix up nutes from scratch at a very cost effective rate .

Anyone care to help me muddle my way through this?

2b2s

 

[MeJuana]

2b2s you missed the blogs I think, he really breaks it down for us there

http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2009/02/hoaglands-solution-for-hydroponic.html

http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2009/02/preparing-hydroponics-nutrient.html

http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2009/02/preparing-hydroponic-nutrient-solution.html

http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2010/05/hydroponic-nutrients-why-solid-is.html

Calculator
http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2010/07/preparing-your-own-hydroponic-nutrients.html

 

[kuz]

It works like this, I think.

Fatman is making a 5 gallon concentrate good for 500 gallons, 2.5 gallons part a and 2.5 gallons part b. If your res is 100 gallons you need 1 gallon of concentrate, 1/2 gallon each of a and b.

I never really understood NPK ratios he talked about, maybe we just had a different understanding of what lucas formula is.

I need to take some time and go through those links above but I thank Crysmatic for summing it up for us.

 

[Crysmatic]

Take any one of the numbers below

Potassium Nitrate 15.6

Anyone care to help me muddle my way through this?

2b2s

hey 2b2s. you are correct. this formula is ounces per 2.65 usgal (10L) stock solution. the recipes i posted (according to fatman's ppm values) are grams per 10 L. fatman also uses it at HALF strength...make sure you hit your target solution EC, and of course, your plants like it.

the recipes are based on RO water...if you know your tap water mineral ppm, you can compensate in your nutes. i.e. make a hard water formula specific to your water.

i strongly suggest reading the original thread at riu. fatman gives several recipes, and some are repeated...so go slowly, and pick the recipe that suits your growing style best. the recipe calculator is at allhydroponic blog (look for the links in this thread). the calculator can also be used to track EC and pH fluctuations in recirculating systems.

there are companies that will mix up micro nutes for really cheap...or even complete fert. so far we've heard crop king, grow more...

kuz, yvw. fatman's bloom recipe (240-74-261 ppm) works out to 3-2-4 NPK. He actually uses 2.8-1-4.4 NPK in his dtw system (he doesn't use excess P and Ca to buffer pH). this is NOT lucas formula i.e. 100-100-200 ppm = 4-9-9.5 NPK. he just said you can use the calculator to MAKE lucas formula for cheap...and that lucas isn't a good recipe. hth