First Grow: Apache Tech At200 W/ Light Rail = 4x4 Full Coverage?

[TheHopper92]

Hey there everybody,

First time post so forgive the long introduction...

Long time consumer, about to be a first time grower here in a few weeks. I'm hoping this community can help me come to a final decision as far as my grow system is to be concerned. I have followed grow journals for years and been in and out of the scene but never actually had the time or resources to take up the hobby until recently. Hopefully all of my years of internet scouring and research will make this transition a bit smoother and I look forward to being an active member of the community once I have everything in hand.

Before we move forward I want to attempt to avoid potential arguments as best as possible. Being an engineer by trade I like to tinker and try new things and look for unexpected results or confirm new theories. Due to this mindset I am 100% dead-set on fully utilizing LED lighting for my hobby. Let me make this clear; I understand that in most situations you are usually better off in the long-term with a traditional HID set-up over a low-level LED; I also know that the community think-tank for traditional lighting is much deeper than that of an LED system. That being said I am a scientist and without starting any arguments I have full convictions that there are SOME companies out there that actually are outperforming HID lights with LED's and that the data verifies this claim. I also think that low quality LED's flooded the market when the tech was emerging and that has soured the taste of the tech in the eyes of the community who basically have an industry standard in the Gavita. So I ask you to preemptively acknowledge my position and accept it if you are an LED hater; if that's too much for you feel free to go help another newbie out who's running a traditional system; I'm sure they and I would both appreciate it.

Okay so now for the big question; Apache Tech AT200; can this light provide coverage for a 4x4 tent whilst using a light rail? My understanding is that this model is really pushing itself at the 9 sqft marker but beyond the obvious "Duh that's a great idea!" I really don't know much about how much efficiency is added with a lightrail. Does anybody have experience with a set-up like this?

I've looked at the lineups provided by Fluorence, Spectrum King, and NextLight among others as some of what I consider to be the rest of the "top" competition and while I could probably get by with a set-up from one of these companies sans-rail I am drawn to the science and history of the Apache brand so I'd prefer to drop tent size to a 3x3 rather than change from the Apache brand (unless somebody can do some serious convincing). I wish I could just grab the AT600 but unfortunately that is out of the budget range currently unless there's a way to knock off $500+ with a mythical discount code that I don't have access to and even then it's still pushing my wallet farther than I'd like at the moment. Ideally I'd just make my own light; unfortunately, I can at times be lazy and I know that while I could do it I'd probably go through a few failed attempts in the learning process and just right now that's all... meh. So this brings us back to the original question, will a light rail add enough coverage to a traditional AT200 that it would be considered an acceptable light for a 4x4 enclosure?

I appreciate those who have taken the time to read this in full. I hope you'll take an additional moment to help a brother out if you have any ideas or thoughts about my upcoming project. If anybody has experience with an AT200 in a 4x4 enclosure with or without a light rail PLEASE reply with your experience.

Much love,

Hopper

 

[MW7945]

no.

 

[MW7945]

That's 12.5w per sq/ft. You want 40-50 imo.

 

[TheHopper92]

Watts have absolutely zero to do with the plant's life cycle. Literally the only thing a Watt is good for measuring is energy consumption. Source: Engineering degree.

I understand where you're coming from. And while there's a lot of misinformation about LED's out there the fact that they run at a lower power draw than HID lights is pretty commonly understood.

 

[MW7945]

Watts have absolutely zero to do with the plant's life cycle. Literally the only thing a Watt is good for measuring is energy consumption. Source: Engineering degree.

I understand where you're coming from. And while there's a lot of misinformation about LED's out there the fact that they run at a lower power draw than HID lights is pretty commonly understood.

K bud, guess you got it all figured out. Best of luck

 

[TheHopper92]

K bud, guess you got it all figured out. Best of luck

I appreciate the good wishes MW! Like I said not looking to argue. We can agree to disagree about some Watts, shouldn't hurt anybody. I'll make sure to message you when I start my grow log so you can follow along and see how it goes!

 

[MW7945]

I appreciate the good wishes MW! Like I said not looking to argue. We can agree to disagree about some Watts, shouldn't hurt anybody. I'll make sure to message you when I start my grow log so you can follow along and see how it goes!

Your plants will do great in veg with that light, and lack greatly in flower with that light.

Nothing to argue with that. More watts = higher yield. I run a little over 700w of quality LED lighting in my 4x4.

I guess if you don't care about yield, that light will suffice. I would've gotten a smaller tent if that's the case though.

 

[MW7945]

I just looked into that light... holy shit...

$1000 for a 226w?

Lmao.

 

[TheHopper92]

Your plants will do great in veg with that light, and lack greatly in flower with that light.

Nothing to argue with that. More watts = higher yield. I run a little over 700w of quality LED lighting in my 4x4.

I guess if you don't care about yield, that light will suffice. I would've gotten a smaller tent if that's the case though.

What kind of light are you running by chance? I don't want to toot my own horn but I got a BS in Chemical Engineering with a 3.8 GPA. Micromoles are actually something I have dealt with as a measurement on a daily basis from time to time (although not in reference to photons); basically I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on with LED's and how they really compare to HID lights from a classical and quantum physical standpoint. The excess red that comes from most of the blurple spectrum lights (even the best and most reliable like Black Dog, Kind, Platinum, Mars, etc.) has been practically proven to increase density in flower. That's awesome! Unfortunately plants can't even absorb as much red as most manufacturer's are putting into their lights. That's where the CO2 enrichment comes in (at about the 30 DLI level from my research). DLI is what's important to the plant, intake of light in it's active spectrum that matches the entire spectrum curve as best as possible. In theory and in practice this is being accomplished by high K "white" light w/ additional red/blue when needed; these types of high K LED's also seem to offer improved canopy depth penetration comparable to HID lighting systems which is something blurples can't say and a major uptick in the green range that most blurple companies ignore. Green IS important for the plant, it's what activates the photorespiration stage of photosynthesis and allows the stomata to open on the plant and intake nutrients from it's surrounding atmosphere and not just it's root system.

Initially I was looking at stuff like the Kind K5 XL750 or the Black Dog PhytoMAX 400, etc.; that was just because I hadn't really looked into the research. It's all there but there's definitely a barrier to understanding along the lines of scientific literacy. I'm not knocking any of the blurples by the way, they are FANTASTIC bloom supplements and that's why you're seeing them being gobbled up by the greenhouse market in the Northwestern US; the general cloud cover means they significantly increase yeilds in greenhouses when constructed and operated correctly even if in just the blurple range.

 

[MW7945]

All of this nonsense, and you still can't grasp the concept of wattage = yield. I'm running Vero 29's and some Luxeon 3030 SMD's. 2700K, 3000K, 4000K on the smd's, 3500K on the vero's.

It's great you understand how LEDs work. But you'll see 200w isn't nearly enough. And for that price you could get a hell of an actual light. 226w for $1000... lol I can't even.

 

[MW7945]

But, to me, you seem like the typical

"I'm asking for help although I'm already an expert"

So, I won't preach much, as it will fall on deaf ears.

 

[TheHopper92]

All of this nonsense, and you still can't grasp the concept of wattage = yield. I'm running Vero 29's and some Luxeon 3030 SMD's. 2700K, 3000K, 4000K on the smd's, 3500K on the vero's.

It's great you understand how LEDs work. But you'll see 200w isn't nearly enough. And for that price you could get a hell of an actual light. 226w for $1000... lol I can't even.

Okay MW, I appreciate your input. I'm not disagreeing with you that increasing wattage can increase yields all other factors remaining the same. I'm just trying to impress upon you that not all other factors are the same! Haha. If I could get the AT600 I would and it would be worth every damn penny because it's not JUST bout the wattage (although that does certainly help).

Maybe we're agreeing but not realizing it. You didn't give a brand name for your light; just the LED's themselves. That makes it sound like you may have built your own light? If that's the case then you should understand that if I could get the AT200 as specced but at 500 watts instead of 200 for a minimal price increase I would do it in a heartbeat because I do like a higher wattage light. Ideally they'd have a 400 watt range and that would be perfect and cover my 4x4 and I wouldn't even have posted this; instead would have just started with the grow journal. Alas, it sounds like they only have AT480's in beta and I won't be getting my hands on one of those. Thus the question of whether a lightrail could in theory add 25% to any light's coverage. If so then it should add the same bump to the AT200.

Do you have any PPF readings from your light by chance?

 

[TheHopper92]

But, to me, you seem like the typical

"I'm asking for help although I'm already an expert"

So, I won't preach much, as it will fall on deaf ears.

And please just because we have a disagreement about wattage doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to learn from one another. Just because I haven't put up a tent myself doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant to this whole thing; just MUCH less experienced. :)

 

[MW7945]

What's the obsession with just that light?

For $500 more you could get a Spydrx Plus @ 685 watts and it'd absolutely crush it in a 4x4.

Or even get a 600w Vero kit from Timber for less th an $900.

Imo, that light you posted sucks. 6100K is far too heavy in blue's. Hell, they don't even mention what diodes they use. Could be a $120 light being sold for $1000.


And as far as "disagreeing on wattage"... there's nothing to agree/disagree on. If you put two tents side by side and have exactly the same variables but with 200w and 400w, you'll see roughly double the yield in the 400w tent. Period.

 

[MW7945]

I'm just straight up telling you right now, if you're trying to fill a 4x4 tent with a 226w light you're going to be greatly disappointed with the $1000 you spend.

 

[TheHopper92]

What's the obsession with just that light?

For $500 more you could get a Spydrx Plus @ 685 watts and it'd absolutely crush it in a 4x4.

Or even get a 600w Vero kit from Timber for less th an $900.

Imo, that light you posted sucks. 6100K is far too heavy in blue's. Hell, they don't even mention what diodes they use. Could be a $120 light being sold for $1000.

Now you're talking my style. I looked at the Spydr; it's literally JUST outside of my price range. I mean I could stretch it but I'd rather not. As far as the Vero kit I hadn't actually heard of that company (like I said I'm knowledgeable but only to the point that I know how ignorant I really am). Just looked into it; seems promising. As far as the reason I'm stuck on that light it's the DLI that I'm a big fan of. 30 full moles of photons per day per square meter at less than 200 watts is INSANE. Like too good to be true insane. Almost underpowered (which I do agree with you about... they need an AT480!!! Gah). As far as it's spectrum it is literally the only one I've seen that seems to almost identically line up with the McCree curve which would be the ultimate light spectrum we can produce as a species.

Sell me on COB's. I'm not against them, just feel like they're still early to market so I've honestly not

 

[TheHopper92]

I'm just straight up telling you right now, if you're trying to fill a 4x4 tent with a 226w light you're going to be greatly disappointed with the $1000 you spend.

The fact that it can put out the same amount of light at the same intensity with such a low wattage is actually like the whole goal of LED powered lights. Eventually a 1000W LED could in theory put out 3-4 times more light/day than 4 1000W HID's but we're nowhere near there yet. The output that the AT200 puts out at such a low wattage is a breakthrough though in my perspective as an engineer. It is probably 30% overpriced but it's because they have proprietary tech, they can make the decision to have that upcharge and nobody can stop them because nobody has the same tech. Wattage<200W is light though I won't deny that. I'd prefer like I said a 400W setup that was built on the same proprietary tech ideally; that just doesn't exist in the marketplace.

 

[MW7945]

Maybe @sixstring can chime in. I'm not a salesman and have no duty to sell lights. Cobs aren't early, they've been out for quite a while now. 561C boards are great as well, the HLG-550 would be a good light.

I guess if I can't get you to see that 12w sq/ft is far from sufficient the only thing I can do is let you waste $1000 and find out for yourself. Unless that light you speak of is absolutely shattering 200 lm/w I'm not sure why you're so hung up on it.

 

[TheHopper92]

Maybe @sixstring can chime in. I'm not a salesman and have no duty to sell lights. Cobs aren't early, they've been out for quite a while now. 561C boards are great as well, the HLG-550 would be a good light.

I guess if I can't get you to see that 12w sq/ft is far from sufficient the only thing I can do is let you waste $1000 and find out for yourself. Unless that light you speak of is absolutely shattering 200 lm/w I'm not sure why you're so hung up on it.

It's putting out 120lm/watt according to specs. I would say that is probably not what you were expecting? And sorry, I wasn't trying to force you to sell me on anything. Just explain them to me. My understanding is that all 10W+ COB lights are actually just 0.1-1W diodes in series? I've heard that the heat capacity is concerning for lifespan which is why I was hesitant on them.

And I hope we can agree that it wouldn't be a waste. If it didn't seem to perform to expectations it would be nothing to add an additional 100-200W of lesser powered LED's. That's half the fun honestly is the research!

 

[MW7945]

14 degree lens angle... no thanks.

don't list type/brand of diodes used... no thanks.

$1000 for 226w... no thanks.

generic LED drivers... no thanks.


I don't doubt the light can do well, within reason, but it's going to be lackluster in a 4x4, period. For that kind of money I just don't see the value. At all