Getto Trees Part 2

[FooDoo]

Yep I haven't used caps biowar in a while, However I just ordered a couple kilos today for this run. I also been reading up on some black label root enhancer. Going to give that stuff a try..

Dimmed all the lights and Got the temps and humidity up to 80 80 and things and starting to perk up..

So when the lights first come on the WIFI's are very perky and the leaf posture is decent, after a few hours on they start to droop more and more till lights go out. Im thinking the plant is telling me that there is 2 much light.. Correct??

Thanks for all the advise and encouragement. Working as a one man show, I have no one over my shoulder to tell me not to water an over watered plant, and why the hell are you turning up the lights on a plant with no root system.. Ill be spending more time doing some late night reading. Get my head back in the game,,,

Cmon now. We don't need a second person to look over our shoulders. We all got that annoying voice in our head that never leaves us the heck alone lol

 

[DapperDon]

We all got that annoying voice in our head that never leaves us the heck alone lol

You're just jealous that the voice in my head sounds like Barry White.

 

[gettogro]

Things are looking better. Starting to see some new growth, However the root system isnt growing very fast.
I am a little unsure about when to feed. Seems with the humidity up and the lights dimmed the pots take forever to dry out. I have some OG nute and root pack for the next feeding..

Another issue I think might be causing problems, Is that I was not washing the coco mix before use. I am still getting a high ph runoff. If I water at ph 5.0 I get a runoff of 6.5. I was following the Growstones directions and just using it straight out of the bag. But I think I need to rinse it thoroughly with a low phed water till I get a runoff in the 5-6 range. Their website says "triple washed and buffered, Ready to use" Maybe not.

My first run I went from a 4 inch rockwool cube, with a good size plant and great root system. Straight into the GS-3 mix in a 5 gallon plastic container. I think I watered it a bunch the first day to get the runoff to run clear and a ph in range. I did not do that this time.

I have some clones that are rooted for the run to follow, I think I will run them in 4 inch rockwool cubes along side some small coco pots to see if I can match the growth rate. Ill try to do everything the exact same as I did my first try when I hit over 3 per plant. Same strains too..

 

[Fresh Starts]

But I think I need to rinse it thoroughly with a low phed water till I get a runoff in the 5-6 range. Their website says "triple washed and buffered, Ready to use" Maybe not.

Well, technically their right.
Buffered means that it will have alkaline "buffering" agents like calcium added to the media to stop the Ph from swinging wildly when you add fertilizer to the mix. In this day and age of hydroponic store additives buffering is very important for the man whom buys the whole line of X nutrients and feeds constantly @ +2000 ppm. I agree whole heartedly with you about the rinsing habit- it's what needs to happen to hit the ground running.

My first run I went from a 4 inch rockwool cube, with a good size plant and great root system. Straight into the GS-3 mix in a 5 gallon plastic container. I think I watered it a bunch the first day to get the runoff to run clear and a ph in range. I did not do that this time.

This is it right here. The delicate process of maintaining optimum PH from veg to bloom through transplant. The plants don't take the heavy Ph swing in kind.. anything over .3 Ph changes will cause some discomfort if not heavy shock depending how healthy the plant was going into the new media. A soil Ph tester/probe should help you keep an eye on this. Good Luck

 

[gettogro]

Thanks for the input..

So what should I do now?? The plants I potted up were in a well rinsed and PH stable environment. Now they are potted up with the unrinsed coco that has a runoff of 6.5 when watered with a 5.0 low ppm nute solution.
Should I go ahead and drench the plants today with 5.0 phed water untill I get the Ph runoff below 6.0 and hope for the best? Or will doing that overwater the unestablished root system and make things worse?
As they are they are growing slow and not doing much anyways.
I will pickup one of those soil Ph testers today. I really wish I would have washed the coco before I potted up.

 

[gettogro]

So, I just flushed out 1/2 of the plants in one room with a 400ppm nute solution ph 3.8. I used a about 5 gallons each pot (aprox 3 gallons of medium) the runoff is still about 6.2. Seems there is a ton of alkaline buffer in the mix.

I dont know, maybe a ph runoff of 6.6 is where it should be and I just made shit worse.. lol

I have used growstones for a long time in my Rdwc systems. I would put 3 bags in the bathtub to rinse and soak for a few hours. I recall having to add a shit ton of acid to the tub to get them to in range. Like more than a cup of ph down. I guess its the same thing for their coco mix. I was looking for the easiest mix to use because my warehouse does not have running water, and to waste all that trucked in water to wash coco to get the PH in hydroponic range is a pain. If I can manage to salvage a decent grow out of all this, I might look into just re using the coco next time.

I found this post. Which kinda describes my situation. I am watering 4.0 in getting 6.5+ out and getting stalled growth and lockouts.

 

[MrBelvedere]

Is it too late to repot them in a 50% perlite/coir mix? Then keep flushing it with pH 6 straight water until it drains off at 6? I think the lack of perlite/fast drainage is maybe hurting ability to correct it quickly.

 

[Fresh Starts]

I used a about 5 gallons each pot (aprox 3 gallons of medium) the runoff is still about 6.2. Seems there is a ton of alkaline buffer in the mix.
I dont know, maybe a ph runoff of 6.6 is where it should be and I just made shit worse.. lol

I wonder what brand of coco you are using (maybe you posted that earlier) but that does sound like a lot of buffering. The plants can survive a wide range of ph. From about 4.2-6.9 but the thing that is causing them to freak out is probably the swing in transplant. The next time you are doing this process try to match the PH levels from Veg to bloom transplant-whether that means rinsing new coco in the bloom room to lower levels or getting your plants set at a higher level in the Veg to match the new coco Ph. This will speed the plant up quite a bit.

I also noticed that there is a slight Mg deficiency in the Veg space you have which could be sign of falling Ph levels in the medium.

What you can also do to understand where your Ph is at with the new batch of coco is take a handful and stick it in a cup of greater size, then fill the cup with coco up with distilled/RO water and let it sit for an hour. Then take Ph readings of the slurry.

I was looking for the easiest mix to use because my warehouse does not have running water, and to waste all that trucked in water to wash coco to get the PH in hydroponic range is a pain. If I can manage to salvage a decent grow out of all this, I might look into just re using the coco next time.

Re-using is cost effective. Great idea.

 

[Fresh Starts]

Should I go ahead and drench the plants today with 5.0 phed water untill I get the Ph runoff below 6.0 and hope for the best? Or will doing that overwater the unestablished root system and make things worse?
As they are they are growing slow and not doing much anyways.

Coco is not going to be overwatered- especially since you have it amended for aeration. I'm not saying its impossible (before everyone starts the overwatering flame) it's just not likely. In any case I would much rather have plants slightly overwatered than struggling to uptake food because of Ph. The later of coarse would wreak havoc much longer than slight overwatering issues.

The saying goes FWIW... "Overwatering can really be seen as under oxygenated. Otherwise DWC would not be possible.."

 

[gettogro]

I went ahead and flushed all the plants out with a 400 ppm ph 4.0 solution. I ran as much as I could with the amount of time and water I had. I was able to get the run off down from 7.2 to 6.2 on most of the plants. While I didnt have any distilled water to do a proper slury test but when I mix in the medium with a 4.0 ph'ed solution it shoots up to 7.0.

I got a response from the tech support at growstone.

Thanks for contacting me with your questions.

GS3 coco mix is ready to use.
The initial pH tends to be a bit higher than the water pH for a bit. That happens while the calcium carbonates from Growstonrs are being leached out into solution and drained away. Later pH will stabilize to about the same pH of the nutrient solution.

Regarding the dark color leaching out that is natural from any product containing coco coir no matter how many times it has been washed before drying and compressed in bales. Washed coco means it has been rinsed with fresh water to remove soluble salts like sodium, which are not adequate for plant growing.

The buffered coco refers to a process of spraying or soaking the washed coco with Calcium nitrate to displace and get rid of non-soluble sodium and potassium attached to the coco exchange complex. It does not relate to a pH buffer but to saturating the coco exchange complex with Calcium so to avoid calcium lockup when growers fertilize with Calcium.

Let me know if that GS3 drainage pH stabilizes at the value you want.

Best,


Paula Costa, PhD
Growstone, Inc.
R&D Director



This makes sense. As to when you put a bag of growstones in a bathtub with a cup of ph down it still leaches of tons of alkaline. So looks like the GS-3 needs the same prewash treatment as the growstones to get the calcium carbonate out of the medium to get a slury ph in the proper hydroponic range.

 

[Fresh Starts]

I went ahead and flushed all the plants out with a 400 ppm ph 4.0 solution. I ran as much as I could with the amount of time and water I had. I was able to get the run off down from 7.2 to 6.2 on most of the plants. While I didnt have any distilled water to do a proper slury test but when I mix in the medium with a 4.0 ph'ed solution it shoots up to 7.0.

I got a response from the tech support at growstone.

Thanks for contacting me with your questions.

GS3 coco mix is ready to use.
The initial pH tends to be a bit higher than the water pH for a bit. That happens while the calcium carbonates from Growstonrs are being leached out into solution and drained away. Later pH will stabilize to about the same pH of the nutrient solution.

Regarding the dark color leaching out that is natural from any product containing coco coir no matter how many times it has been washed before drying and compressed in bales. Washed coco means it has been rinsed with fresh water to remove soluble salts like sodium, which are not adequate for plant growing.

The buffered coco refers to a process of spraying or soaking the washed coco with Calcium nitrate to displace and get rid of non-soluble sodium and potassium attached to the coco exchange complex. It does not relate to a pH buffer but to saturating the coco exchange complex with Calcium so to avoid calcium lockup when growers fertilize with Calcium.

Let me know if that GS3 drainage pH stabilizes at the value you want.

Best,


Paula Costa, PhD
Growstone, Inc.
R&D Director



This makes sense. As to when you put a bag of growstones in a bathtub with a cup of ph down it still leaches of tons of alkaline. So looks like the GS-3 needs the same prewash treatment as the growstones to get the calcium carbonate out of the medium to get a slury ph in the proper hydroponic range.

Glad your getting some where with this issue

 

[juniper]

Here's the deal: Growstones are made with recycled glass. What they don't tell you is that it's 95% soda-lime glass, which leaches hydroxides and/or carbonates. It will leach for some time, raising your pH. Just adjust input water until runoff pH stabilizes. Feed at 5.0 for a while, always checking runoff. I do the same thing with perlite, vermiculite, rockwool, etc.

Almost all hydroponic media will require some adjustment. Rockwool has been consistently the most neutral media I've used.

 

[gettogro]

thanks for the growstone info,

I have been feeding them 3.5 - 4.0 ph water for a couple days now. Slowly starting to get the run off in check. Its still about 6.4. Plants are looking better now. Slurry Ph of the GS-3 mix straight out of the bag is 8.5 + it takes forever for all the carbonates to leech out. It needs a good acid soak before use.
When I potted up I didnt rinse or soak it, nor did I check the runoff ph. So they were trying to grow in a 8+ ph environment and weren't doing anything but dying

Might try a bag gold label 80/20 to see if it needs as much prep work.

 

[juniper]

I hear ya man...Growstone doesn't tell you that part on the bag and I think it's at best disingenuous, at worst lying.

People seem to like the Chow-Mix type products...I'd say give it a shot. You may be fighting pH w/the GS3 for a while.

For what it's worth, I really like perlite/vermiculite and perlite/rockwool mini-cubes. P/V and P/RMC will raise your pH a
little bit temporarily, but won't shoot it up to 8.0+ or anything crazy like that. Vermiculite is cheaper, but rockwool mini-cubes
are a little easier to work with. For me, pH stabilizes in fresh perlite/vermiculite buckets in about a week.

Side note: I've been eyeballing this soilless mix from Sanctuary Soil: Big City Hydro Mix
I haven't read any reviews yet but I saw it at the hydroponics store the other day and it piqued my interest. I should've asked
about it. Might be just the thing you're looking for.

 

[Capulator]

nutri field 70/30 homie. good right out of the bag.

 

[DapperDon]

nutri field 70/30 homie. good right out of the bag.

This? http://www.discount-hydro.com/nutrifield-coco-50l/

 

[Capulator]

@DapperDon that is the coco but they make a 70/30 perlite premix. been working great for me.

 

[Capulator]

I have also used the coco and amended it myself with perlite. same results just a little slower mixing it up.

 

[DapperDon]

Would this be it? http://www.discount-hydro.com/black-label-premium-coco-70-30-mix/

 

[mojavegreen]

Don't have this issue with grow stones. Weird