Leaf Damage / Stunted Growth

[mandalaman]

Ive run through every issue possible with this plant. Water was too high at first and burned em with strong nutrients. Then over reacted and set water too low and saw deficiency. I finally top fed and got some root growth. Is this spider mites? Deficiency? Toxicity?

pH now holding stable at 5.4 rose to 5.5 in 12hr. Before it would go 5.4->6.3 in a few hours.

Water temp between 66-69.

RH: ~50 but ranges from 38-71.

Ppm: currently 490 (500). Starting with RO 0ppm

Ambient temp: 61-73f

Thanks in advance.

 

[mandalaman]

Pics from this AM

 

[Seamaiden]

That looks primarily like a pH issue. I've never done DWC or straight hydro, but low to mid 5s worked well for me doing perlite hempy tubs.

 

[mandalaman]

That looks primarily like a pH issue. I've never done DWC or straight hydro, but low to mid 5s worked well for me doing perlite hempy tubs.

I received the clones in 3" rock wool cubes. They weren't treated and I was having super high pH in rockwool root zone and 5.4 in the aerated When I realized this by testing liquid actually in rockwool I flushed the rockwool directly with a lot of RO. That was two weeks ago. Up until a couple days ago I was still have pH run from 5.4 to 6.3-6.8 in a matter of hours.

Two nights ago i drained rez and refilled with (in this order):
OSA/28 - silica
MammothP - microbial
CalMag
Heavy 16 Roots - promoter/anti-precip
Heavy 16 Prime - sweetener/pH regulator (carbs/silica/molasses/humic/fulvic/vit b/kelp etc)
Heavy 16 Fire - pk boost/kelp
Heavy 16 Finish - ancient forest
Heavy 16 Veg A/B

Starting with RO water final solution came to ~1.0EC and 5.4pH no adjustment needed.

Over two days pH has slowly risen from 5.4->5.6 so pH seems to be far more stable.

I've been scouring the plants for mites/pests and haven't seen anything with a 40x loupe.

Last night I created a spray of RO and Eucalyptus/Peppermint/Rosemary essential oils. I applied fairly liberally foliarly. Treated with Azamax foliarly and to root zone directly (spray bottle).

Any other thoughts? I assume if everything starts slowly getting better than it was likely pH issues?

What about my roots? They aren't slimy. But definitely browner over past couple days.

 

[mandalaman]

I wonder if the rockwool pH being so high was causing problems with the Heavy Prime (pH regulator) and causing the whacky pH fluctuations which in turn was causing massive lockouts. Is that possible?

 

[mandalaman]

Get home tonight. One bucket is at 7.4pH the other at 6.8pH. And root rot.

In the midst of completely cleaning both buckets and all tubing, water pump, et al. I am going to try and get them out of the rock wool. Going to add RO and I'm going to try the current culture nutes just Veg A + Veg B. Maybe 100-200 ppm and run the water a bit cold and increase the fan speed. Not having any luck with the Heavy nutes.

 

[mandalaman]

Rock wool was rotting black and brown right where it met the stalk and the start of the root zone. Should have listened to my instinct earlier to get them out of the rock wool.

Did a couple quick h2o2 dunk n swirls. Then a RO rinse.

Also changed Rez mix to: Cultured Solutions A&B, OSA, Deep6, Hydroguard, MammothP. pH to 5.4.

Rez heater set at 67f. Rearranged/organized the tent a bit for better air flow.

 

[mandalaman]

The second one didn't fare as well. It had rotted almost all the way through and roots came right off as soon as the slightest pressure was applied. It explains why there was zero growth. Let's see if my baby recovers.

 

[justiceman]

Alright buddy I haven't run DWC before. Only done hempy's like seamaiden but here's my 2 cents as someone who has ran organics and synthetics. You don't have any pests. That's for sure.

1. Your PH is all over the place. I'm not familiar with any of these nutrients but the reason for that is most likely the addition of the following:

MammothP - microbial
Heavy 16 Prime - sweetener/pH regulator (carbs/silica/molasses/humic/fulvic/vit b/kelp etc)
Heavy 16 Fire - pk boost/kelp
Heavy 16 Finish - ancient forest(is this another humic acid product?)

I believe you are experiencing a bacterial bloom in your reservoir. Essentially you turned your reservoir into a type of compost tea. You added the microbes, and then you gave them the food required to reproduce thus raising the PH. This is bad for two reasons. First off the bacterial bloom causes nutrient availability to go all over the place. Secondly they consume tons of O2 essentially robbing that from your plants roots. Without O2 your plants suffocate and develop root rot.

I'd say clean out your system and ditch all the organic/microbe stuff. Stick with your calmag, and base nutrients.

2. A starting PH of 5.4 seems a little low. I'd probably try to hit anywhere from 5.6-5.9

 

[mandalaman]

Alright buddy I haven't run DWC before. Only done hempy's like seamaiden but here's my 2 cents as someone who has ran organics and synthetics. You don't have any pests. That's for sure.

1. Your PH is all over the place. I'm not familiar with any of these nutrients but the reason for that is most likely the addition of the following:

MammothP - microbial
Heavy 16 Prime - sweetener/pH regulator (carbs/silica/molasses/humic/fulvic/vit b/kelp etc)
Heavy 16 Fire - pk boost/kelp
Heavy 16 Finish - ancient forest(is this another humic acid product?)

I believe you are experiencing a "bacterial bloom" in your reservoir. Essentially you turned your reservoir into a type of compost tea. You added the microbes, and then you gave them the food required to reproduce thus raising the PH. This is bad for two reasons. First off the bacterial bloom causes nutrient availability to go all over the place. Secondly they consume tons of O2 essentially robbing that from your plants roots. Without O2 your plants suffocate and develop root rot.

I'd say clean our your system and ditch all the organic/microbe stuff. Stick with your calmag, and base nutrients.

2. A starting PH of 5.4 seems a little low. I'd probably try to hit anywhere from 5.6-5.9

Excellent advice, and thank you. It's a relief to know I don't have pests. And yes the pH has been nuts. What you said makes sense - and it was probably those issues that caused the rot in the rock wool (check the pics above!). Likely no oxygen was getting there at all.

Excellent info on the bloom and using more H2O - it will go to my memory bank :)

It is my understanding that 5.4-5.5 is generally a nice starting point for DWC, but maybe someone more knowledgeable can clarify.

Were you able to catch any of what I've done since the first post? Would love to hear your additional thoughts. Thanks :)

 

[justiceman]

No problem at all! Yup I read everything. I actually said O2(Oxygen) not H20(Water) just to be clear. As in the lack of oxygen caused the rot is what I'm thinking happened. I don't think rockwool affected PH all that much.

That small plant definitely got some root rot alright. It looks like she could possibly recover but it may take some time. The big girl has a real good chance of recovery with a nice clean, stable, and basic reservoir. She actually looks pretty good aside from the leaf stress. Her nutrient uptake isn't even terrible considering the ph roller coaster.

 

[mandalaman]

No problem at all! Yup I read everything. I actually said O2(Oxygen) not H20(Water) just to be clear. As in the lack of oxygen caused the rot is what I'm thinking happened. I don't think rockwool affected PH all that much.

That small plant definitely got some root rot alright. It looks like she could possibly recover but it may take some time. The big girl has a real good chance of recovery with a nice clean, stable, and basic reservoir. She actually looks pretty good aside from the leaf stress. Her nutrient uptake isn't even terrible considering the ph roller coaster.

Awesome- yes o2 that was a typo on my part. The EC was only .2 the cultured solution nutes seem much less ... Heavy :eyepiece:

So essentially if the plant had been getting adequate o2 then the fact that the rock wool was constantly saturated would not have mattered?

 

[justiceman]

Yup with enough O2 saturation doesn't matter. That's how DWC works in the first place. If there is enough dissolved O2 in the water roots can do their thing. If there is not then they rot. A medium like rockwool, coco, soil, etc. have similar rules where they require adequate O2 within the air pockets so the roots don't drown/rot.

With a closer look at that rockwool it looks like you put a small cube inside of a bigger cube before you put it in the grow rocks? Looks like that created a little pocket for rot. I'm assuming that was too much rockwool and you would have been okay with just the small plug. That alone would have provided more O2 to that area.

 

[mandalaman]

Yup with enough O2 saturation doesn't matter. That's how DWC works in the first place. If there is enough dissolved O2 in the water roots can do their thing. If there is not then they rot. A medium like rockwool, coco, soil, etc. have similar rules where they require adequate O2 within the air pockets so the roots don't drown/rot.

With a closer look at that rockwool it looks like you put a small cube inside of a bigger cube before you put it in the grow rocks? Looks like that created a little pocket for rot. I'm assuming that was too much rockwool and you would have been okay with just the small plug. That alone would have provided more O2 to that area.

Yes I received them as clones in the large rock wool cubes. Not an ideal situation - but every mistake is a lesson learned. :)

 

[Seamaiden]

Thank you for chiming in @justiceman !!

 

[mandalaman]

@Seamaiden so this has happened since removing rock wool. Also, pH will rise to 6.2/6.3 no matter how often I pH down to 5.5-5.8. Usually stays at 6.2/6.3 for 24hrs plus.

 

[mandalaman]

I added some CalMag to both rez. pH down a bit to 5.8. @justiceman any thoughts. Stress obviously factors in but seems like more.

 

[mandalaman]

More

 

[justiceman]

Dang Ph at 6.2-6.3 for 24hrs+ seems like it might make some crazy stuff happen in DWC

Hmmmmmmm What kind of PH down are you using? If you are using a citric acid based ph down like Earth Juice ph down those are pretty much useless as they stop working after 24 hrs or less.

Is your rez getting cloudy or does a type of scum show up when the ph rises? if so that could indicate there is still a bacterial bloom happening. Which means either A) you didn't clean something you should have or is too hard to get to B) you are still adding microbes and/or organic boosters. What's in your rez right now?

 

[mandalaman]

No scum, no clouds, no foam in Rez. Temp kept around 68.

For pH down I use GH. Around 10 drops gets me from 6.2->5.6/5.7.

I was under the impression 6.2 wasn't horrible for hydro (albeit on the high side). That's my mistake. I wanted to try leaving it there as it seemed to stabilize there. I thought it was trying to tell me something.

Same Rez as since transplant plus CalMag (ClearGrow).
OSA/28
Deep6
Hydroguard
Cultured Solutions Veg A&B

Around 0.2 EC

I thought perhaps it was the stress on the roots that they weren't uptaking nutes and getting deficiency all over. I was thinking of giving a Foliar feed. From what you suggested it Sounds like it is still likely my pH still? Glad you are here to help me from compounding my mistakes!! :)