Led Lighting: Sh:t Or Shinola?

[DGP]

I have only been using LEDs in a grow for a short time and am still learning (spent years designing commercial LED high powered lighting so I have a solid background) but Good Gawd I am sick of seeing people getting ripped of from these garbage companies that produce total junk and import them into the US. Not talking about Fluence or Timber etc but the typical all in one enclosure/reflector type stuff you see on Ebay and Amazon etc.

They are often specified at 1200 watts and really draw like 200-300 or even less. The specs are out and out lies and the reliability seems questionable and color accuracy is a absolute joke. Often the COB spacing is inappropriate and the coverage area is another part of the total lies. In addition they contain the drivers so the heat the drivers produce is in the grow space whether it be a closet, tent or room. The smaller the grow area the worse the additional heat is an issue. However, regardless of room size it all costs in A/C eventually as well as compromised water temperatures for hydro folks.

Pleeeease everybody that is considering switching to LEDs, read the stickies here in this section BEFORE buying anything at least you'll know what you are getting regardless of your decision.

Cree, Luminous, Samsung and Citizen all make good LEDs. Even Citizen as many people joke about are making some pretty fine COBs if I just do a spec comparison. Quantum boards are awesome when you can get them (an indicator of the quality is they are frequently out of stock!) The Cree's in my opinion are overpriced....they had a clear lead for a while but with others catching up now it is not so much of a lead. They all have good color accuracy (CRI 90 and up) and are fairly close in efficiency (lumens/watt).

So DONT go to the greasy guys on Ebay or even Amazon.

OK, so if anyone has anything to add like:

1. Reliability of some of the commercial "junky" stuff you have had and been disappointed in.
2. Suppliers, kit manufacturers or parts vendors you have used and really like.
3. References to other builds, DIY sites or whatever.
4. References to the stickies and the builds shown there.
5. Specs of lights and components that are great!
6. Spec discussions on lights that are pure ripoffs & whatever else might help

How many times have we seen a new thread posted such as: "I am comparing the following lights: Mars, Morsen........What should I buy?" or "New to LED, what is a cheap system?". I don't think anyone minds helping out with those questions but I sure am sick of seeing people getting ripped off & separated from their hard earned money on something that is not a real value and a quality product :)

Even though I have designed COBs for other commercial applications, I used the 2 stickies in this forum and read through all of the posts before deciding what to buy and what to build.

Thanks to those authors/builders who did the hard work and posted the results!

I really wonder how many of these crap lights come out of Ebay, Amazon etc. each year that people get duped into buying.......Sorry Amazon usually your reviews and products are good quality but not so much in the case of LED grow lights.....well Ebay, yeah you get what you get there.

Dee

 

[Polar510]

Who doesn't have a mars led or 2 in the attic right?

 

[DGP]

Not me but I almost bought a POS light once, was tempted then looked at the specs and fortunately skipped it.

Dee

 

[Polar510]

Mars 600 been in storage for along time, but hey at least it was only $130.. Heres a pic of some BD under it.

 

[Wee Zard]

Built my own shinola 10 or so years back.
They are still growing strong.

 

[DGP]

Mars 600 been in storage for along time, but hey at least it was only $130.. Heres a pic of some BD under it.

They work, my big pet peeve is the specifications that are published with a lot of plug and play lights.

Dee

 

[Polar510]

Yeah for sure the specs on most leds are for Marketing.

 

[Ina]

I'm starting to think the same way about the purple,blue and red panels,they can be used for veg but for flowering...i don't know.....I'm not familiar with LEDs,only CFL and HPS but I imagine something with same specter-warm white,daylight and cold will be better than...purple.I'm looking for something cheap and strong but I cant make it myself,i need something ready.Like LED bulbs or what do you think about street lights(but they are little bit expensive,almost like grow lights),floodlights(there is lots of them on normal prizes200w-70euro for example,50,100,150w...with different k and chip) and other industrial lighting?I know they aren't made for growing but i guess they will be better than CFLs at least?

 

[Shadrock5]

I have only been using LEDs in a grow for a short time and am still learning (spent years designing commercial LED high powered lighting so I have a solid background) but Good Gawd I am sick of seeing people getting ripped of from these garbage companies that produce total junk and import them into the US. Not talking about Fluence or Timber etc but the typical all in one enclosure/reflector type stuff you see on Ebay and Amazon etc.

They are often specified at 1200 watts and really draw like 200-300 or even less. The specs are out and out lies and the reliability seems questionable and color accuracy is a absolute joke. Often the COB spacing is inappropriate and the coverage area is another part of the total lies. In addition they contain the drivers so the heat the drivers produce is in the grow space whether it be a closet, tent or room. The smaller the grow area the worse the additional heat is an issue. However, regardless of room size it all costs in A/C eventually as well as compromised water temperatures for hydro folks.

Pleeeease everybody that is considering switching to LEDs, read the stickies here in this section BEFORE buying anything at least you'll know what you are getting regardless of your decision.

Cree, Luminous, Samsung and Citizen all make good LEDs. Even Citizen as many people joke about are making some pretty fine COBs if I just do a spec comparison. Quantum boards are awesome when you can get them (an indicator of the quality is they are frequently out of stock!) The Cree's in my opinion are overpriced....they had a clear lead for a while but with others catching up now it is not so much of a lead. They all have good color accuracy (CRI 90 and up) and are fairly close in efficiency (lumens/watt).

So DONT go to the greasy guys on Ebay or even Amazon.

OK, so if anyone has anything to add like:

1. Reliability of some of the commercial "junky" stuff you have had and been disappointed in.
2. Suppliers, kit manufacturers or parts vendors you have used and really like.
3. References to other builds, DIY sites or whatever.
4. References to the stickies and the builds shown there.
5. Specs of lights and components that are great!
6. Spec discussions on lights that are pure ripoffs & whatever else might help

How many times have we seen a new thread posted such as: "I am comparing the following lights: Mars, Morsen........What should I buy?" or "New to LED, what is a cheap system?". I don't think anyone minds helping out with those questions but I sure am sick of seeing people getting ripped off & separated from their hard earned money on something that is not a real value and a quality product :)

Even though I have designed COBs for other commercial applications, I used the 2 stickies in this forum and read through all of the posts before deciding what to buy and what to build.

Thanks to those authors/builders who did the hard work and posted the results!

I really wonder how many of these crap lights come out of Ebay, Amazon etc. each year that people get duped into buying.......Sorry Amazon usually your reviews and products are good quality but not so much in the case of LED grow lights.....well Ebay, yeah you get what you get there.

Dee

Would you be able to shed dome light ha hah on the difference between an led that uses a diffuser bs an led that uses optic lens for instance migrow boasts a diffuser that adds to footprint and penetration supposedly but in a test run against an optic 1 with 90 degree glass lens it kinda lost at least by about 4/10s of a umol. I get that thats not a huge margin but given the choice would your use a diffuser to spread light out or a more directive. Lens

 

[DGP]

Well, there is a lot to think about. In the case of LEDs, they radiate in a Lambertian radiation pattern (see below) so they are by nature almost omni-directional, so in a sense already diffuse. So, if you add an optic to "diffuse" it, then you have little to gain and the optic always has some loss in the transmission of light through the lens materials so you would lose a little more yet.


In this diagram the length of the radiating lines indicate relative brightness.

As far as a focusing lens, there are a lot of issues there too. Lets say your COBs are on 1 foot centers and the idea is to give even coverage, then why focus them? Because if you focus them there will now be an ideal distance for coverage and all other heights will be either overlapping brighter areas or have dark areas that are now lacking in coverage. A plant is not 2 dimensional so with focused light there is only one place in the light cone that is ideal but the plants leaves exist at many heights in the grow and it is always changing.

The same would hold true about reflectors. And that is why I run my COBs without optics as far as reflectors or lenses. Now the COB holders I use have a very subtle reflector surface but I believe it's only purpose is to redirect the nearly unusable light that is going off at almost 90 degrees and reflect downward.

Hope that answers your questions, been a while since I worked in that field.

Dee

 

[Shadrock5]

Well, there is a lot to think about. In the case of LEDs, they radiate in a Lambertian radiation pattern (see below) so they are by nature almost omni-directional, so in a sense already diffuse. So, if you add an optic to "diffuse" it, then you have little to gain and the optic always has some loss in the transmission of light through the lens materials so you would lose a little more yet.


In this diagram the length of the radiating lines indicate relative brightness.
View attachment 784853

As far as a focusing lens, there are a lot of issues there too. Lets say your COBs are on 1 foot centers and the idea is to give even coverage, then why focus them? Because if you focus them there will now be an ideal distance for coverage and all other heights will be either overlapping brighter areas or have dark areas that are now lacking in coverage. A plant is not 2 dimensional so with focused light there is only one place in the light cone that is ideal but the plants leaves exist at many heights in the grow and it is always changing.

The same would hold true about reflectors. And that is why I run my COBs without optics as far as reflectors or lenses. Now the COB holders I use have a very subtle reflector surface but I believe it's only purpose is to redirect the nearly unusable light that is going off at almost 90 degrees and reflect downward.

Hope that answers your questions, been a while since I worked in that field.

Dee

Thank you yes it does answer alot and I see how the extra diffusion might weeken the intensity and thats what im after right now I believe I lack penetration and intensity may I ask whT cobs you use??? And like what sorta ave per watt return are you getting. Seems the more i read the less I know. I reAlly would love just some unbiased experiential advice

 

[DGP]

The penetration issue in cannabis culture has always perplexed me. People stating that the penetration of this light source/type or the other is better or worse. No offense to anyone but I see it as a myth. A photon is a photon and it makes no real difference how you create it but the physics are the same whether it is produced by HPS, CFL or LED the plant doesn't care. It cares about frequency and intensity but all that being the same a photon from a given point at a given angle is still a photon. It can only penetrate by passing by obstructions, ultimately being blocked at some point along it's way by leaves and stems or whatever is in it's path.

However, if a fixture such as a single bulb HPS has sort of a single point of origin so the angle of the light is essentially coming from one common location, then its penetration into any point in the canopy is limited by it's angle and how many things get in the way and block the streams of photons (again, things like other leaves and branches). So, given an LED COB system where in the same grow space you have 12 COBs (for example) and therefore 12 point sources instead of one then obviously your penetration into the canopy is going to be better because of the diversity of the angles of light entering the canopy. Lets say you have discrete LEDs and many more of them, well that would be even better cause you might have hundreds or even thousands of diverse point sources of light (like the Spyder fixtures). So, LEDs or any light source has no physical advantage in light penetration but the configuration of the sources does just due to geometry. This is why some people use light movers! The sun moves all day long so the reason I think nature designed cannabis to grow like a Christmas tree in shape is it takes advantage of the constantly moving angle of the sun. We prune and train out plants to avoid the natural shape indoors to solve the problem of a fixed light source which is unnatural :).

Anyway, most of my LED opinions are based on what I learned over the years working in the LED field. Some of my assumptions and observations could be wrong but I am pretty sure the penetration thing is a myth used by people selling lights to convince you that you need to keep buying the next great thing. I say you build a great LED system and ignore the sales guys that just want to keep selling you newer stuff. I heard yesterday at my local hydro shop the guy raving about the next big change in CMH technology that is a "must have" so it continues on (same song 50th verse). However, If I had to choose lighting right now I would be buying a good CMH, COB LED or Quantum board arrangement. I think CMH is still a great light and it is more color correct than most HPS lights but I still think LED is the best given a properly thought out fixture. However, now that I have run LED COBs for a flower cycle and a couple veg cycles I really like what I am seeing as well as the reduced AC and power bill in general. Most of my enthusiasm for LEDs are based on experience in the lab and published specs but in the grow I am seeing things I never saw with HPS lighting. Also the color correctness of the current LEDs is awesome. No more Blurple color or red shifted HPS, but a CRI of 95 and light that looks like a Summer day. Look up the CRI ratings for various light sources such as HID, CFL or whatever and you will see pretty low numbers on most lights except quality LEDs and CMH sources.

Many people think LEDs are not ready for prime time and I think this opinion exists because of all the shitty, falsely specified, blurple lights out there that so many people have tried and not based on the performance of a quality system that is either DIY or built by real professionals (like RapidLED's Vero fixtures or Timber, Fluence and so on). The reason is the commercial ones that have been properly engineered and have more honest specs cost a lot more so often people buy the ones on Amazon or Ebay that are for the most part crap. In the case of cost that is where DIY or kit builds shine because they are often 1/2 the cost or lower.

I use the CXM22 Luminous COBs running between 50 and 65 watts per COB. Why?: Because the specifications are 95CRI, and the performance seems to equal or exceed the more expensive Cree COBs for half the price.

https://cobkits.com/product-category/cob-chips/luminus/

Hope this helps.

Dee

 

[DGP]

Here is what I am talking about. Some clips of a Viparspectra "600 watt" LED system for $169. It calls out as 600 watts (I guess equivalent power to HID???) and it draws 269 watts from the outlet. At best it is a around 340 watts comparable power to an HID. It's coverage area for flower is said to be 2.5 X 2.5 but a 600w HID will cover almost a 4X4 area so 6.25 square feet instead of almost 16 square feet for an HPS lamp and reflector. For the same price a person could buy 3 of the COB assemblies and one Mean Well driver from cobkits.com and have at least 8 square feet of coverage at a higher intensity with better light spread. For less money a person could get an HPS and cover almost 3X the square footage.

Pre-Assemble Light engine and driver from Cobkits:

https://cobkits.com/product/meanwell-hlg-240h-54b-driver/

Also, look at the spectral output. It looks pretty bad and is missing a lot of light over the visible spectrum. No spec listed on color correctness of the light (but often these ads say "Full Spectrum"). COBs are typically 80 -95 CRI so they look very much like real white light. The 3000k look a little red shifted as they should for a flower light source. But with the Viparspectra when you add mostly red and mostly Blue output with not much in between, you get "blurple" (a weird looking purple that almost looks like visible parts of the UV segment).

On the coverage map they supply it really looks like you would be doing well to get a 2X2 grow area covered as the intensity tapers off very quickly. The advantage to a COB array is the light sources are spread out appropriately for the area they are designed to cover and with DIY you have control of that and fixtures can be built that are even adjustable in regards to spacing.

Attached are spectral charts for Luminous as well as Cree COBs. Also, attached are PDF spec sheets for both those COBs as well.

The specs form the add

Luminous CXM22 Spectral chart:

Cree Spectral Chart:

 

[sixstring]

2 things,a 600w hps does in fact cover a 4x4 nicely.and viperspectra are shit haha.
That light barely covers a 2x2 for veg by the time you raise it up to 24 to 30 inches to get decent par numbers on the edge of the 2x2 it's pretty well a veg light.

 

[DGP]

I am glad you agree because I really respect the work you have been doing in your COB build thread. That thread helped me decide what to do for my grow areas. Even though I had past experience with LEDs that was for a different application and your write ups helped me see what was best for a horticulture application.

Dee

 

[Polar510]

Soon there's going to be a dedicated landfill just for shitty chinese led's:(

 

[DGP]

Typical Color accuracy for various light sources. One thing to note though is with LED you don't get much UV if any. Even thought the CRI is really low on HPS you do get IR and UV. I think the jury is still out on UV but some say it stresses the plant and causes more trichs to be produced. However on the other hand UV is said to degrade thrichomes potency. There are other ways to stress a plant in its last days of production so maybe there are ways to get around the lack of UV. I don't understand the UV issue too well myself but there are ways to augment UV in the grow with "actinic" fluorescent lights.

 

[DGP]

Soon there's going to be a dedicated landfill just for shitty chinese led's:(

Well, it looks like a lot of them get sold. This one guy's Ebay add I clipped the specs from has sold around 1,400 of them so far. A good business for the seller I suppose.:(

Dee

 

[sixstring]

Soon there's going to be a dedicated landfill just for shitty chinese led's:(

You can ditch the diodes and repurpose the heatsinks and drivers,slap a few quality cobs on the heatsink and turn them into great lights.

 

[Polar510]

Really?? You have any links about that? Might have a mars600 I could rework:)