Overuse of Eagle 20 and systemics makes resistant fungi

[ArthritiSux]

Did sulfer burners become obsolete for pm now?

 

[Seamaiden]

Not as far as I know. I have one. Haven't had to use it for PM. :/

 

[ttystikk]

Did sulfer burners become obsolete for pm now?

I haven't used mine in over a year. I overcame powdery mildew by means of ventilation and repeated foliar spraying. In my experience, adding a bit of potassium chloride to tap water and misting until leaves are wet does a good job. It's as much about drenching the leaf surface regularly as it is about what you use.

 

[ArthritiSux]

I hear ya.

 

[farmerjane]

I realize this is an old thread; however, having lived in pm hell and conquered same, I figured I'd add my 2 cents.

System: bubbleponics

There was a time I lived at the beach, a heaven for molds and mildew. The pm was sooooo bad that one crop of ak, about 1/4 ot more lb per plant (can't remember shit), was a total loss. One crop after the other fell victim to the insidious stuff. It was like fighting off a Great White.

I tried spraying with high pH tap water, added H2O2, tried sprays from the nursery, Neem oil, nothing worked. Then I was introduced to Eagle 20 (two years later I still have the itty bitty bottle I was given). Poof! Save for every once in a great while, no more pm and even then it's only a very small dab here and there just before harvest. The magic was in the when, not in the how much.

When my clones are around 2 weeks old with nice long roots hanging in the water, I spray them thoroughly with a solution of 1/2 tsp/gal. I spray them up, under, spray the deck, the walls, everything but the lights. I repeat with a lighter solution just before they go into the flower room. That's it as far as foliar treatment goes. I make sure the environment is fungi-unfriendly and make sure they plant cells have an adequate supply of silicon in veg to tighten the cell walls, keeping out pathogens.

Solution breakdown for spray bottles so you don't have to think (I hate math):
1 gal = 4 quarts = 128 ounces = 3776 ml
1 tsp = 5 ml = 16 pipette drops = 0.166 oz
1/2 tsp = 2.5 ml = 8 pipette drops = 0.0833 oz

Let's say your spray bottle is 22 oz. You want 8 pipette drops for 128 ounces. Formula: 8 divided by 128 times 22. Comes out to 1.375 drops. Make it 2 drops. If you screw up and squeeze 3, don't worry. All you have to remember is that you are spraying babies, so you don't need much. Plant babies, like human babies, are sponges and will absorb anything and everything you throw at them, so you don't want to be feeding them steak when they are still on mother's milk.

 

[Natural]

I realize this is an old thread; however, having lived in pm hell and conquered same, I figured I'd add my 2 cents.

System: bubbleponics

There was a time I lived at the beach, a heaven for molds and mildew. The pm was sooooo bad that one crop of ak, about 1/4 ot more lb per plant (can't remember shit), was a total loss. One crop after the other fell victim to the insidious stuff. It was like fighting off a Great White.

I tried spraying with high pH tap water, added H2O2, tried sprays from the nursery, Neem oil, nothing worked. Then I was introduced to Eagle 20 (two years later I still have the itty bitty bottle I was given). Poof! Save for every once in a great while, no more pm and even then it's only a very small dab here and there just before harvest. The magic was in the when, not in the how much.

When my clones are around 2 weeks old with nice long roots hanging in the water, I spray them thoroughly with a solution of 1/2 tsp/gal. I spray them up, under, spray the deck, the walls, everything but the lights. I repeat with a lighter solution just before they go into the flower room. That's it as far as foliar treatment goes. I make sure the environment is fungi-unfriendly and make sure they plant cells have an adequate supply of silicon in veg to tighten the cell walls, keeping out pathogens.

Solution breakdown for spray bottles so you don't have to think (I hate math):
1 gal = 4 quarts = 128 ounces = 3776 ml
1 tsp = 5 ml = 16 pipette drops = 0.166 oz
1/2 tsp = 2.5 ml = 8 pipette drops = 0.0833 oz

Let's say your spray bottle is 22 oz. You want 8 pipette drops for 128 ounces. Formula: 8 divided by 128 times 22. Comes out to 1.375 drops. Make it 2 drops. If you screw up and squeeze 3, don't worry. All you have to remember is that you are spraying babies, so you don't need much. Plant babies, like human babies, are sponges and will absorb anything and everything you throw at them, so you don't want to be feeding them steak when they are still on mother's milk.

gross..I would never put that shit on my plants

 

[neverbreak]

single-mode action 'cides can easily force pathogens to become resistant.

they don't exactly become resistant, it's just than any strains lackin resistance get wiped out, leavin only those with resistance to multiply. i'm sure ya know that sea, more a clarification for others.

neverbreak

 

[Seamaiden]

True, neverbreak, and a good point. The modes by which fungi become resistant may or may not be similar to how bacteria do it--which is that those individuals that survive are quite literally able to share that specific survival information (genetic/genes) with other bacteria, including other species. When that's considered, along with their rates of reproduction, you should become frightened by the possibilities. Like I said, I don't know if fungi can do it the same way, but I wouldn't be surprised if they can, maybe even better.

Farmerjane, I do understand how happy you must have been to have found relief, however, I'm not so sure your logic with regard to treating 'babies' that aren't actually babies--they're cuttings from a sexually mature plant, not seedlings. The problem that really stands out for me is that if a product like this isn't used properly, according to label directions, isn't rotated with other products, is used at less than optimal dilution rates, then you're setting yourself up for resistant pathogens.

Do you ever use physical barriers such as horticultural oils? Anything else as part of your IPM (integrated pest management), which is recommended by the manufacturer of E20, who say it must be rotated, not used as a standalone?

 

[farmerjane]

Farmerjane, I do understand how happy you must have been to have found relief, however, ...
Do you ever use physical barriers such as horticultural oils? Anything else as part of your IPM (integrated pest management), which is recommended by the manufacturer of E20, who say it must be rotated, not used as a standalone?

Thanks for the reply, Sea.

Horticultural oils, yes. No relief. And I totally agree that the cuttings aren't technically babies, but I've had good results treating them that way though the results may be subjective and merely psychosomatic on my part. :confused:

Now this rotation thing, somehow I missed that. My small bottle was a gift, no label but I did 'net research to investigate the long-term effects and to see how long the product stays in the plant. Didn't want my patients inhaling bad chems. Looks like I didn't dig far enough. Am off to read more, find labels, starting with your OP. One of the things I love about growing - there's no end to study and discovery.

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh.. no label, eh? I agree, get all labels, including MSDS. :)

 

[farmerjane]

Oh.. no label, eh? I agree, get all labels, including MSDS. :)

Dang I hate being fed my own advice. :shifty:

Started homework yesterday. With my current wee crop, I'm good. However, the planned expansion - which includes a selection of mainstream crops - will require far better stewardship.

Am studying the meaning of the many chem references plus their recommended usages. This would be a piece of cake were I growing turf or gourds as chem formulas and dosages have been developed for their invasive strains of PM. It's a shame that no studies are available on cannabis-specific strains of PM so I thought that perhaps I'd find something specific to the mint family since that's as close as we can get. Nah, not yet. Plenty of info for downey mildew, but not powdery.

 

[monkeymun]

True, neverbreak, and a good point. The modes by which fungi become resistant may or may not be similar to how bacteria do it--which is that those individuals that survive are quite literally able to share that specific survival information (genetic/genes) with other bacteria, including other species. When that's considered, along with their rates of reproduction, you should become frightened by the possibilities. Like I said, I don't know if fungi can do it the same way, but I wouldn't be surprised if they can, maybe even better.

Horizontal gene transfer is incredibly interesting. One way bacteria exchange genetic information is through the process of conjugation, where they use a sex pilus to forming "mating pairs", which is analogous to sexual reproduction, except the two individuals directly share the genetic information, rather than producing progeny with a mix of their collective DNA.

The image above is of two bacteria exchanging DNA via a sex pilus.

Fungi are sexually reproducing organisms, so if there are genes present for fungicide resistance in a population, the occurrence of these genes can be increased in subsequent generations. As Neverbreak mentioned, those lacking the appropriate genes for resistance will be killed off, leaving those with genes for resistance to reproduce and increase in number. Fungi can can share genes laterally through horizontal gene transfer, but I'm unsure of whether this is implicated in fungicide resistance.

 

[monkeymun]

Purely for interest, here's a picture showing the three ways in which bacteria can gain new genetic material. Isn't really pertinent to the thread, but sure is interesting!

 

[neverbreak]

sweet posts bro, very informative.

neverbreak

 

[Seamaiden]

Maybe not directly pertinent, but this is information that the VAST majority of the public is entirely unaware of. They blithely continue to use antimicrobial concoctions because they get rid of over 99% of germs! Never once realizing that this is a problem, a huge problem. Only now are we really beginning to become aware of the biome within and with out of ourselves.

 

[monkeymun]

Thanks Neverbreak, I just find this stuff interesting.

Seamaiden, you are completely correct, that 1% that's left risks becoming the 100% that can't be killed. People need to learn to accept microbes. They are what essentially controls all other life on earth and our paranoia regarding bacteria is ridiculous. Of course there are pathogens out there, but we need to approach management in other ways. Even our culture of having expiry dates on foods needs to be changed. We should reply less on a number printed on the package and more on our sense. You can smell and taste when milk is off, no problems!

 

[Seamaiden]

LMAO! You just touched on what can become a HUGE argument between me and my MOM. She'll say, "Oh, we can't use this, it's expired." And I'll say, "Fuck that! Open it up and smell it." She gets so mad at me, and flat out refuses to eat whatever it is.

 

[farmerjane]

LMAO! You just touched on what can become a HUGE argument between me and my MOM. She'll say, "Oh, we can't use this, it's expired." And I'll say, "Fuck that! Open it up and smell it." She gets so mad at me, and flat out refuses to eat whatever it is.

Too funny. Unless the dang thing looks a science experiment. Ahem, no, you may NOT look in the back of my refrigerator.

Monkeymum, thank you very much for your post, plus sea - I liken the overuse of 'cides to the overuse of antibiotics.

I had to stop my studies for a bit to ready some produce. This is one of the batches that I almost lost from neglect while I was in the hospital.

Sea, in deference to your statements ref E20, I've decided to forego my usual spray in the nursery until I've developed a better understanding of the product(s) I'm using to prevent PM. The weather is turning cold; we can control the grow area environment without running up an electric bill that resembles the national debt as we did this summer.

This buys me a little time to study and perhaps find a better solution for where we live.

 

[Natural]

Too funny. Unless the dang thing looks a science experiment. Ahem, no, you may NOT look in the back of my refrigerator.

Monkeymum, thank you very much for your post, plus sea - I liken the overuse of 'cides to the overuse of antibiotics.

I had to stop my studies for a bit to ready some produce. This is one of the batches that I almost lost from neglect while I was in the hospital.

Sea, in deference to your statements ref E20, I've decided to forego my usual spray in the nursery until I've developed a better understanding of the product(s) I'm using to prevent PM. The weather is turning cold; we can control the grow area environment without running up an electric bill that resembles the national debt as we did this summer.

This buys me a little time to study and perhaps find a better solution for where we live.

If you can't control it with simple beneficial teas and harmless foliar..a good place to start is to filter your intakes and get a sulfur burner. It can be a little tricky using it indoors, but if you seal the room and put fan controls outside, you can easily do a 1-2 hour burn. I like to do mine in the veg room and I give them a treatment when I flip them. This is all maintenance as a preventative. The sulfur is beneficial to the plants and any residue will be long gone come harvest. It works and I know some areas of the world are bad for PM..you just have to run measures before it gets a foothold and keep on keepin on.
Other things to consider would be to keep good airflow in the garden and to keep your humidity in check.

 

[farmerjane]

Aha! Yes Natural, I've been considering a sulfur burn for the flower room but don't know squat about it.

Intake is fully filtered, but there is no way to keep just plain air from getting in as we open and close the door to the room, plus stuff comes in on our clothes and shoes.

Humidity is very low here. We live with the cacti. Had to bring it up over the summer.

The biggie has been airflow, and at this time we cannot afford any more fans. We are rotating the fans we have around the grow so that we minimize prolonged dead space as much as possible.

I am SO wowed by the responses to my post in this thread. You've given me a lot to research, new questions to ask, and renewed some of the focus I'd lost.

So now I will see if we can use sulfur in our room and if so, what we need to take into account.