Phos alternatives for Vegan Teas?

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Grorganic

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Hey all
Im new to this site, but have been growing organically with teas for years. Recently, Ive been transitioning to veganics and am having a hard time finding a replacement for the phos guanos I love so much. Soft rock phosphate was my first choice, but Ive heard it can cause cancer and actually kill the microbes if you use the wrong kind. (I have no sources, just hear-say) Idealy, OMRI certified SRP is the goal but Ill settle for anything that doesnt hurt people or microbes. Ive done a good amount of research at my local stores, on the internet and have read basically every microbe book out and now Im turning to thcfarm hoping for a little direction. Any advise is appreciated greatly!
Thank you in advance!
-gro

Heres my current list of tea products molasses, kelp, insect frass, EWC, glacial rock dust, soluble seaweed, humus, a dash of alfalfa meal and vegan compost.
 
leadsled

leadsled

GrowRU
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You use earth worm poop so why not bat poop?

Otherwise frass has you covered.
.


Archipelago Bat Guano is something worth looking at. Read about the way it is farmed and some vegans can live with that or make an exception.

http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/TopTen.shtml
-----
it takes thousands of years to fossilize guano, so whatever there is here today is all that we will ever see. According to the USDA, all of the fossilized seabird guano supplies are already exhausted. There are however some large reserves of fossilized bat guano left. Let’s not waste this precious resource. Use it wisely.
-------



Organic vegetarians comprise a specialty group that should be especially interested in Archipelago Bat Guano Phosphate. the alternatives are not very attractive. Superphosphate is not approved for use in organic growing, and raw rock phosphate reportedly does not work very well. And bone meal is obviously not vegetarian-friendly. Archipelago Bat Guano Phosphate and fresh manure is about all that you have left. And the fresh manure is likely to contain a lot of nitrogen that you do not want to apply at times when your plants need phosphate for fruiting and flowering.
 
organicozarks

organicozarks

337
93
Hey all
Im new to this site, but have been growing organically with teas for years. Recently, Ive been transitioning to veganics and am having a hard time finding a replacement for the phos guanos I love so much. Soft rock phosphate was my first choice, but Ive heard it can cause cancer and actually kill the microbes if you use the wrong kind. (I have no sources, just hear-say) Idealy, OMRI certified SRP is the goal but Ill settle for anything that doesnt hurt people or microbes. Ive done a good amount of research at my local stores, on the internet and have read basically every microbe book out and now Im turning to thcfarm hoping for a little direction. Any advise is appreciated greatly!
Thank you in advance!
-gro

Heres my current list of tea products molasses, kelp, insect frass, EWC, glacial rock dust, soluble seaweed, humus, a dash of alfalfa meal and vegan compost.

Why are you going "veganic?" What is the point of you making the "switch?"

I would like to point out that veganics is not vegan by very definition. You don't want to use bat shit, but you will use worm shit, and bug shit. Microbes are alive so veganics can't be vegan by it's own definition. It was truly an ill conceived name.
My entire growing program revolves around teas. Some are have no animal inputs, and some do. So I would really like to know what you end game is with what you are doing so that maybe we can better point you in the right direction.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
I get the vegan thing, and... if it's what floats your boat, then that's your boat, floated. No skin offa my nose. ;)
Hey all
Im new to this site, but have been growing organically with teas for years. Recently, Ive been transitioning to veganics and am having a hard time finding a replacement for the phos guanos I love so much. Soft rock phosphate was my first choice, but Ive heard it can cause cancer and actually kill the microbes if you use the wrong kind. (I have no sources, just hear-say) Idealy, OMRI certified SRP is the goal but Ill settle for anything that doesnt hurt people or microbes. Ive done a good amount of research at my local stores, on the internet and have read basically every microbe book out and now Im turning to thcfarm hoping for a little direction. Any advise is appreciated greatly!
Thank you in advance!
-gro

Heres my current list of tea products molasses, kelp, insect frass, EWC, glacial rock dust, soluble seaweed, humus, a dash of alfalfa meal and vegan compost.
Viruses may be the cause of many cancers. Now what?

SRP takes about two years to become plant-available, so you should add it in soils now with the idea that in about two years you'll be able to reduce P inputs. There's also the question of your base media/soil. Are you working outdoors with your native earth? If so, you really need to know some basics about that soil first, before you can make an intelligent decision about which direction you should go. Also, if you're in a situation like me and you're watering with very hard, alkaline water high in carbonates, then you must take care about how that may interact with the other variables. Ya dig?

As far as harming anything... think on this--how do we acquire the rock dusts in the first place, eh? Usually it's mining activities, right? But we need a lot of this stuff that's held within the crust of the earth, so we make some trade-offs.

One of my trade-offs is that I use rock dusts (still trying to source locally to reduce impact/footprint). I'm also quite willing to use the natural effluent from animals (and myself, pee is free, after all, and it's damn near a complete nutrient whose main problem making a complete/total feed for my needs is my ability to produce enough) as well as the byproducts from using animals. I feel strongly that if we're going to kill the cow that we should use the WHOLE cow. Kill it humanely and use the whole thing.

In that vein, I suggest trading perlite for an ag waste byproduct, such as rice hulls, for lightening up mixes. I suggest finding local rock dusts with analysis. I haven't been too successful in finding quite what I want (reliability is a local issue/problem, the level of which is pretty unbelievable for someone who lived most of her life in the LA area).

I prefer to use other ag wastes when and where I can, and while I know not all may be 100% organic, they're better than the blue alternatives.

High P alternatives to guanos (which aren't so renewable, unless you're going with chicken shit, which is pretty high N) would be bone meal, which I use, smells like chicharrones. I also use Cal-Phos, because I'm sitting on acidic, Ca-, N-, heavy soils and because my water *is* high in CO3, my sources of Ca tend not to be CaCO3 (same w/Mg).

This is specifically for my outdoor growing in my native earth. If I'm using pre-mixed top-soil, I don't have quite all the same concerns, with the water being the main exception.

Organic meats are being produced and processed, and so there are organic byproducts from those that have been raised and slaughtered humanely, that are also renewable (the issue I have with stuff like fossilized guano beds), and they're a good, renewable source of fairly ready P. I don't suggest making tea with bone meal (neither do I often suggest using guano--food safety perspective is hard to shake) because it smells awful, no longer like tasty chicharrones.

You know what chicharrones are, right? :D
 
G

Grorganic

4
3
First, let me thank all of you for your responses. I really do appreciate it. Also, Id like to state that anything I write is simply my understanding thus far. I welcome any changes or corrections to my current base of knowledge, it only makes me better. My switch from organics to veganics is for the challenge. My current organics regimen is written down from the precise day I take cuts all the way til harvest. Basically a monkey could run it. Its become very mundane and Ive almost become content with what I know. Not cool at all/time for a change. Veganics was an easy next step as I wont get caught dead with hydro buckets. IMO the best hydro in the world (there are some bomb hydro growers) does not come close to true organics. Thanks again for the responses and so quickly!

You use earth worm poop so why not bat poop?

Otherwise frass has you covered.
.


Archipelago Bat Guano is something worth looking at. Read about the way it is farmed and some vegans can live with that or make an exception.

http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/TopTen.shtml
-----
it takes thousands of years to fossilize guano, so whatever there is here today is all that we will ever see. According to the USDA, all of the fossilized seabird guano supplies are already exhausted. There are however some large reserves of fossilized bat guano left. Let’s not waste this precious resource. Use it wisely.
-------



Organic vegetarians comprise a specialty group that should be especially interested in Archipelago Bat Guano Phosphate. the alternatives are not very attractive. Superphosphate is not approved for use in organic growing, and raw rock phosphate reportedly does not work very well. And bone meal is obviously not vegetarian-friendly. Archipelago Bat Guano Phosphate and fresh manure is about all that you have left. And the fresh manure is likely to contain a lot of nitrogen that you do not want to apply at times when your plants need phosphate for fruiting and flowering.

Lead thanks for the awesome info on the ABG and link, Im definitely going to look into it! I still will have organic projects going on, so this is VERY helpful. As for using EWC and not other guanos, I do understand that EW are technically animals of the invertebrates category. My understanding for not using guanos or fish extracts is to avoid brewing up nasty pathogens like e. coli or salmonella (just examples) Then feeding it to the plants causing others to get sick when smoked. Obviously, the majority of people can handle guanos, blood/bone meals etc. For those with compromised immune systems though, veganics or juicing is the only safe way to receive their meds. EWC does not have as much of a risk of brewing up unwanted bacteria. I understand too that if your brewer is on point, you shouldn't have this issue. Its all precautionary.

Why are you going "veganic?" What is the point of you making the "switch?"

I would like to point out that veganics is not vegan by very definition. You don't want to use bat shit, but you will use worm shit, and bug shit. Microbes are alive so veganics can't be vegan by it's own definition. It was truly an ill conceived name.
My entire growing program revolves around teas. Some are have no animal inputs, and some do. So I would really like to know what you end game is with what you are doing so that maybe we can better point you in the right direction.

Hey Ozark, my intro and response above should answer your questions. Sounds like you and veganics dont get along very well :D lol jp


I get the vegan thing, and... if it's what floats your boat, then that's your boat, floated. No skin offa my nose. ;)

Viruses may be the cause of many cancers. Now what?

SRP takes about two years to become plant-available, so you should add it in soils now with the idea that in about two years you'll be able to reduce P inputs. There's also the question of your base media/soil. Are you working outdoors with your native earth? If so, you really need to know some basics about that soil first, before you can make an intelligent decision about which direction you should go. Also, if you're in a situation like me and you're watering with very hard, alkaline water high in carbonates, then you must take care about how that may interact with the other variables. Ya dig?

As far as harming anything... think on this--how do we acquire the rock dusts in the first place, eh? Usually it's mining activities, right? But we need a lot of this stuff that's held within the crust of the earth, so we make some trade-offs.

One of my trade-offs is that I use rock dusts (still trying to source locally to reduce impact/footprint). I'm also quite willing to use the natural effluent from animals (and myself, pee is free, after all, and it's damn near a complete nutrient whose main problem making a complete/total feed for my needs is my ability to produce enough) as well as the byproducts from using animals. I feel strongly that if we're going to kill the cow that we should use the WHOLE cow. Kill it humanely and use the whole thing.

In that vein, I suggest trading perlite for an ag waste byproduct, such as rice hulls, for lightening up mixes. I suggest finding local rock dusts with analysis. I haven't been too successful in finding quite what I want (reliability is a local issue/problem, the level of which is pretty unbelievable for someone who lived most of her life in the LA area).

I prefer to use other ag wastes when and where I can, and while I know not all may be 100% organic, they're better than the blue alternatives.

High P alternatives to guanos (which aren't so renewable, unless you're going with chicken shit, which is pretty high N) would be bone meal, which I use, smells like chicharrones. I also use Cal-Phos, because I'm sitting on acidic, Ca-, N-, heavy soils and because my water *is* high in CO3, my sources of Ca tend not to be CaCO3 (same w/Mg).

This is specifically for my outdoor growing in my native earth. If I'm using pre-mixed top-soil, I don't have quite all the same concerns, with the water being the main exception.

Organic meats are being produced and processed, and so there are organic byproducts from those that have been raised and slaughtered humanely, that are also renewable (the issue I have with stuff like fossilized guano beds), and they're a good, renewable source of fairly ready P. I don't suggest making tea with bone meal (neither do I often suggest using guano--food safety perspective is hard to shake) because it smells awful, no longer like tasty chicharrones.

You know what chicharrones are, right? :D


Hey Seamaiden, awesome info and firsthand experience. This specific issue pertains to my in, my out regimen Im very satisfied with at this moment. Ill start with my soil. Royal Gold basement mix is my go-to inside soil. Its light and has a variety of amendments (not all veganic) but not in high levels. For the most part its very basic and allows me to add whatever I want/plant wants for full control. My water in slightly on the softer side, usually with a ph of 6.7 and an ec of 0 or .1, but that is all I know in that category.

Sourcing local SRP with analysis has proved to be a major challenge even in the huge ag area I reside in. Im pretty familiar with bone meal and all its benefits, its a must in my organic regimen. I really wanted to cut out all animal products but also using products that lessen my footprint is another direction I'm heading, so maybe I need to find a happy median?
Really, I'm trying to avoid any additional bottled nutes to obtain the extra Phos. Biocanna the nute reg I use isn't so high in P so I try to create a balance through my teas without compromising them.
I'm very glad someone is using their own pee because I am so terrified of trying it. haha Glad its working for you! Maybe Ill try it on a few plants outside this year. Mayyybe...

Thanks again maiden and btw I bought a huge bag of chicharrones form the ice cream man after school almost everyday of my middle school career. $2.50 a bag! haha so bomb yet so nasty

-gro
 
organicozarks

organicozarks

337
93
I have no problem with using non-animal derived inputs. I do have a problem with someone calling something vegan, and then using animal inputs. Sounds kind of dumb to me.. Veganics is a catchy term to sell products.

So it seems as though you are wanting to solve a problem before it exists. The problem not existing being passing on a bad bacteria to a patient with a compromised immune system. Which at face value is a great thing to be thinking about. Most people don't care enough to think about these things. They just want to make money. So I commend you on that. It does seem as though you are basing your decisions off of emotions, and not off logical thought, or statistics.

It's like starting a war on marijuana even though it doesn't kill anyone, or starting a war on terror even though statistically cars are way more dangerous. You get what I am saying. Pathogens can come from anywhere, and everywhere. You are carrying them on you right now. Most people carry staph on them at all times. So to get away from these kinds of things is going to be impossible.

I don't know why there is this push to sterilize growing plants. That is what veganics is trying to do. Sterilize a natural process that in and of it's self is not sterile.

So let's break down veganics.
Earth worm castings, and compost= arthropod shit, and microbe shit. Not vegan by definition
Rock phosphate=polonium 210 radiation, and up to %6 fluoride. Vegan, but not something I would personally want to use.
Alfalfa meal, cotton burrs, rice, comfrey, nettles, yarrow, neem, etc...= unless you by certified organic it is going to be covered in pesticide residue
Which doesn't mean shit though because the organic certification in America is a joke at best.Heavy metals are not regulated by American organic standards. Which is bullshit!
Most other rock dusts that you are going to use will have heavy metals in them. which is one of the reasons why some people don't use guano. Hypocritical I think?

What I wanted to illustrate to you is that you are asking the wrong questions. The question should be what is the best way to remediate heavy metals, pesticide residue, etc.. so that it does not end up in the final product. Switching to veganics does not do one thing to solve this problem.

The best answer to this question is remediation through the use of humic acid, and compost tea. I am not one to copy, and paste so if you want to follow up you will have to Google for yourself, but I have an acquaintance who has done lead remediation tests for his State, and with only the use of humic acid they were able to make contaminated soil pass the test.The lead was still in the ground, but the humic substances locked it up so that the plants would not take them up. Kind of cool I think.

Similar tests have shown to be true through the use of compost tea. With which I am probably the biggest fan of next to microbe man.

At Chernobyl they have planted hemp to re-mediate the soil of radiation. This plant is known for it's remediating properties.

After this long winded bullshit that I just posted out I would like to end with,
Everything we grow with is plastic, and all of those chemicals are leaching into every single persons end product.No veganics answer to that.

Remediate my friend. That is the only solution.
 
leadsled

leadsled

GrowRU
2,145
263
First, let me thank all of you for your responses. I really do appreciate it. Also, Id like to state that anything I write is simply my understanding thus far. I welcome any changes or corrections to my current base of knowledge, it only makes me better. My switch from organics to veganics is for the challenge. My current organics regimen is written down from the precise day I take cuts all the way til harvest. Basically a monkey could run it. Its become very mundane and Ive almost become content with what I know. Not cool at all/time for a change. Veganics was an easy next step as I wont get caught dead with hydro buckets. IMO the best hydro in the world (there are some bomb hydro growers) does not come close to true organics. Thanks again for the responses and so quickly!

Lead thanks for the awesome info on the ABG and link, Im definitely going to look into it! I still will have organic projects going on, so this is VERY helpful. As for using EWC and not other guanos, I do understand that EW are technically animals of the invertebrates category. My understanding for not using guanos or fish extracts is to avoid brewing up nasty pathogens like e. coli or salmonella (just examples) Then feeding it to the plants causing others to get sick when smoked. Obviously, the majority of people can handle guanos, blood/bone meals etc. For those with compromised immune systems though, veganics or juicing is the only safe way to receive their meds. EWC does not have as much of a risk of brewing up unwanted bacteria. I understand too that if your brewer is on point, you shouldn't have this issue. Its all precautionary.
Welcome.
the ABG is "supposed" to be lacking the unwanted bacteria.
I suspect you will do fine with out the bat and bird poop. I know a grower that grows without bat poop and his herb is excellent.

good compost and team with the microbes and you will be winning.

Off topic laugh:
Reminds me of rize up:
 
G

Grorganic

4
3
I have no problem with using non-animal derived inputs. I do have a problem with someone calling something vegan, and then using animal inputs. Sounds kind of dumb to me.. Veganics is a catchy term to sell products.

So it seems as though you are wanting to solve a problem before it exists. The problem not existing being passing on a bad bacteria to a patient with a compromised immune system. Which at face value is a great thing to be thinking about. Most people don't care enough to think about these things. They just want to make money. So I commend you on that. It does seem as though you are basing your decisions off of emotions, and not off logical thought, or statistics.

It's like starting a war on marijuana even though it doesn't kill anyone, or starting a war on terror even though statistically cars are way more dangerous. You get what I am saying. Pathogens can come from anywhere, and everywhere. You are carrying them on you right now. Most people carry staph on them at all times. So to get away from these kinds of things is going to be impossible.

I don't know why there is this push to sterilize growing plants. That is what veganics is trying to do. Sterilize a natural process that in and of it's self is not sterile.

So let's break down veganics.
Earth worm castings, and compost= arthropod shit, and microbe shit. Not vegan by definition
Rock phosphate=polonium 210 radiation, and up to %6 fluoride. Vegan, but not something I would personally want to use.
Alfalfa meal, cotton burrs, rice, comfrey, nettles, yarrow, neem, etc...= unless you by certified organic it is going to be covered in pesticide residue
Which doesn't mean shit though because the organic certification in America is a joke at best.Heavy metals are not regulated by American organic standards. Which is bullshit!
Most other rock dusts that you are going to use will have heavy metals in them. which is one of the reasons why some people don't use guano. Hypocritical I think?

What I wanted to illustrate to you is that you are asking the wrong questions. The question should be what is the best way to remediate heavy metals, pesticide residue, etc.. so that it does not end up in the final product. Switching to veganics does not do one thing to solve this problem.

The best answer to this question is remediation through the use of humic acid, and compost tea. I am not one to copy, and paste so if you want to follow up you will have to Google for yourself, but I have an acquaintance who has done lead remediation tests for his State, and with only the use of humic acid they were able to make contaminated soil pass the test.The lead was still in the ground, but the humic substances locked it up so that the plants would not take them up. Kind of cool I think.

Similar tests have shown to be true through the use of compost tea. With which I am probably the biggest fan of next to microbe man.

At Chernobyl they have planted hemp to re-mediate the soil of radiation. This plant is known for it's remediating properties.

After this long winded bullshit that I just posted out I would like to end with,
Everything we grow with is plastic, and all of those chemicals are leaching into every single persons end product.No veganics answer to that.

Remediate my friend. That is the only solution.

Some excellent points Ozark and Im glad you took my joke in good fun. My core group of friends/growers couldnt come close to the responses Ive already received.

Im aware of the OMRI certs in America being bs but it seemed to be the best of the worst, if you get what Im saying. You confirmed my thoughts on SRF, definitely not something I want to use or smoke myself.

So I guess Im already at a fork in the road. I love the idea behind veganics but as you stated its not 100% obtainable, which had crossed my mind previously. Now that its more apparent to me, maybe my new challenge will be one of a more earth friendly/remediation route. Because if I cant do it 100%, Im not going to do it at all. Plus, Im pretty conscious of what Im putting in and am already walking the organic/"veganic" line.

The humic info was very cool to learn. Im currently using it in my teas and small amounts of humus in the soil. Any other advise/info would be great. Especially, a little more in-depth on remediation :D or simply a website/keyword to search for a little direction. Ill be doing my own research either way.

I know people are touchy/secretive when it comes to their tea recipes but itd be cool to see what yours are looking like in comparison to what I have going on. (flower tea begin to end) Im currently in a battle with one of my partners so a third party who is all about teas could help resolve the issue..before I blow the eff up! If not, I understand or message me if you want to keep it off the boards. Anything is appreciated.

Thanks again Ozark!
 
G

Grorganic

4
3
Great video! Had me laughing so hard!!

Been teaming with microbes since I read the book! haha
 
organicozarks

organicozarks

337
93
The best thing to do for compost tea is use a local compost, and local worm castings. Now that is best case scenario. I have a local friend who happens to own a compost farm. So I am lucky for that, but no one near me does worm castings. So I have to get those by the tote if I want to order it for a good price. Being that you are trying to stay away from guano my suggestion won't help you much. I add high p guano to my teas in flower. That is where I get the P boost, but honestly if you build your soil out right you wouldn't have to add the extra bit of guano. I do also make a ferment that has guano in it that I will feed the 4th week, the 6th week, and the last two weeks of flower. It provides an extra food source for the microbes already in the soil. It really helps to bring out the trichs toward the end of flower as well. It made all the difference in the final look of my product.

The humic acid info I can't really point you toward any info. I don't save a lot of links. I read them, and then they are gone. The person I referenced earlier happens to produce a humic substance as one of their Companies products. He has done a lot of research into this field. I trust what he says as he is in a position to be telling the truth. There is not a lot of info out there on this subject. You would think with how toxic our environment is becoming that this info would be popular. Not surprised. Stupid humans.:)
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
Organic, very small correction--earthworms are annelids, not arthropods. Quibbling? Perhaps.

Gro, OMRI is not a certification body, they are a listing body. If a substance is listed by OMRI, it has ostensibly passed some minimum organic certification standard. We have the NOP (National Organic Production) standards that are minimum standards, and then each state usually has their own certifying body. In California, for example, a grower first registers with the state as an organic cultivator, but that does not legally allow them to state on any labeling that they are certified organic. In fact, using that term can be problematic for anyone who hasn't undergone certification. Here in California it's done by CCOF (California Certified Organic Farmers).

While organic certification in the US has a way to go, it's better than nothing, in my very strong opinion on the subject. I still look for the OMRI listing.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
Oh hardly. Pff. I just saw the 'pod' and had a moment in my former life. :p
 

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