Removing Pesticide ?

[Graywolf]

thanks for the help. we did test the material before we run it and got a clean result then re tested it after we processed it and was positive of pesticides. never happen before. thing the lab might have messed up.

One of the reasons we got a GC, was to protect ourselves and our equipment from pesticides on incoming material that isn't from our garden. If it is contaminated, it fouls not only the concentrate, but the recovered butane and internals of our systems, requiring a full dump and internal cleaning. It only took once for us to lose our sense of humor.

Your lab ostensibly screwed up, but you may have also concentrated it some with your extraction, sooo the truth may be in the middle. A recent Oregonian expose', revealed the presence of both pesticides and residual solvent in a high percent of the random concentrate samples they had tested, so it is a problem we're all stuck with, unless we only process our own material.

At what concentration levels are they showing up in the concentrate?

 

[Graywolf]

yes. they asked a question. i will give them an answer. without opinion.

Your personal standard, but not universal!

Mine is that I would first tell them that there is no safe number of times to spin a cylinder with Russian Roulette and that I recommend against it. Not everyone is firmly rooted in reality, so I find it best to start by trying to get everyone singing off the same sheet of music.

Pesticides in pharmaceuticals is not a casual subject without fallout, and I deem it worthy of calling for a reality check.

 

[Graywolf]

Perspective! I was recently hired as a consultant on a law suit, by which the indoor blaster killed his associate and immolated himself badly enough to not be purdy anymore, so he's suing the folks who sold him the butane and the manufacturer for not telling it was unsafe to blast indoors with butane, or having it clearly printed on the label.

The "Nobody told me!", so how was I to know defense!

 

[Mr SG]

One of the reasons we got a GC, was to protect ourselves and our equipment from pesticides on incoming material that isn't from our garden. If it is contaminated, it fouls not only the concentrate, but the recovered butane and internals of our systems, requiring a full dump and internal cleaning. It only took once for us to lose our sense of humor.

Your lab ostensibly screwed up, but you may have also concentrated it some with your extraction, sooo the truth may be in the middle. A recent Oregonian expose', revealed the presence of both pesticides and residual solvent in a high percent of the random concentrate samples they had tested, so it is a problem we're all stuck with, unless we only process our own material.

At what concentration levels are they showing up in the concentrate?

good point/ interesting idea. we cls the material then gave it to a 3rd party to have it refined looks like the clear amber stuff skunkfamers posted yesterday on Instagram. I wonder if that increased the amount. lost about 20 to 30 percent yield having it refined. most lost is winterizing it. but must be some loss in removing everything you don't want. did u or joe make the amber stuff on Instagram looks nice, we just figure out how to turn that stuff into shatter.

 

[Graywolf]

Joe or James must have been the rascal who posted a peeeecture, but we will typically lose 15 to 20% winterizing and another 20/25% at the Kugelrohr, when running clear. THC yield versus potential is typically around 80%.

Typically the clear from a Kugelrohr is not a shatter, but Joe has made shatter using very tight fraction control. You can discuss it with him at [email protected]

 

[Mr SG]

Joe or James must have been the rascal who posted a peeeecture, but we will typically lose 15 to 20% winterizing and another 20/25% at the Kugelrohr, when running clear. THC yield versus potential is typically around 80%.

Typically the clear from a Kugelrohr is not a shatter, but Joe has made shatter using very tight fraction control. You can discuss it with him at [email protected]

thanks. yea is been lots of fun cleaning all the equipment.

 

[Mr SG]

the clear you guys are making are you keeping the nature terps or adding fake later. my 3rd party friends doing a process that keeps all the nature terps. like it way better that steam diss clear with fake terps. my new goal in life is to figure out that process. makes the cleans safest best tasting medi I have ever seen.

 

[Graywolf]

the clear you guys are making are you keeping the nature terps or adding fake later. my 3rd party friends doing a process that keeps all the nature terps. like it way better that steam diss clear with fake terps. my new goal in life is to figure out that process. makes the cleans safest best tasting medi I have ever seen.

The monoterpene fraction smells/tastes like ass, so we haven't added it back.

The clients that Pharmer Joe produces clear for, for the most part are making carts or medical potions, and most making carts are adding aftermarket terpenes, from real plants, picked up from folks like Extraction Consultants, The Essential Oil Company, or from Lebermuth.

Reeeal monoterpenes, but not the same as what was taken out. I sampled many that were pleasant to tasty, but none that would please a connoisseur of natural bud flavors.

For aroma and flavor, we do better extracting at subzero temperatures so as to minimize pickup of the C-29 and above fractions, using a 50/50% butane/propane mix. It purges relatively easily, leaving behind a plethora of natural terpenes.

Nothing we've turned into Clear, was made from anything that you would have chosen to dab, and the primary purpose of Clear, is typically to harvest dark unsaleable oil from older material, which didn't smell or taste all that wonderful anyway.

Soooo, skipping back a few hundred years, steam distillation has been the primary extraction method for C-10 mono and C-15 sesquiterpenes for a few hundred years. It is relatively easy to strip the mono and sesquiterpenes from one batch of material using steam, and add it back to the C-21 fraction concentrate, to get closer to the original aroma and flavor.

 

[Mr SG]

thanks for the info. I got lots of books to real up on. we have been using ETS cls using 100% n propane. been told by many to start a 50/50 mix. says gets a better rounded high. does mix gas make good shatter? Why is it so hard to make n propane shatter ? any good books I should get on fraction distillation just got a roto vap.

 

[EastCoast710]

thanks for the help. we did test the material before we run it and got a clean result then re tested it after we processed it and was positive of pesticides. never happen before. thing the lab might have messed up.

ya but u tested a sample. not the entire batch lol. just scrap it . or tell people exactly whats in it let them choose. its better then theblack market. when u have noooooooooooooo clue.

 

[Mr SG]

ya but u tested a sample. not the entire batch lol. just scrap it . or tell people exactly whats in it let them choose. its better then theblack market. when u have noooooooooooooo clue.

how would you test more than just a sample. if I test the whole thing there would be no wax for me.

 

[Graywolf]

how would you test more than just a sample. if I test the whole thing there would be no wax for me.

In aerospace we used sampling tables from Juran's Quality Control Handbook, to determine what a statistically significant sample size was. You might check Amazon for a used copy, or an older edition, like my 3rd edition no doubt is.

 

[zippertag]

thanks for the help. we did test the material before we run it and got a clean result then re tested it after we processed it and was positive of pesticides. never happen before. thing the lab might have messed up.

The test were fine....when the starting material was tested the amount was too small to register....once you concentrated the material down it now was able to register on the test.
Everyone is in the same boat.

 

[PureProcess]

Okay... Everyone saying (Throw it away only use clean material) you're a bunch of impractical idiots, and I'm not just saying this without a reason let me explain. If you live in CA then you know that we grow grapes.... a lot of grapes. Myclobutanil is predominately used in CA, I mean like 90% or so of the Myclobutanil is used here in CA, pretty much the only other place it is used is France. Its used to control PM on grapes and is sprayed by atomizers or dumped from aircraft over vines to get onto the plant. It travels literally 100's of miles in the air and if you grow out doors pretty much anywhere in CA then you have it. You have it in low or high doses which is why it comes up so often. People know not to use Eagle 20 but it still comes up in an outdoor field.

Graywolf, Ive followed you for years I mean nearly a decade man and this is hands down the weakest chain of responses I've ever seen from you, as a matter of fact it was so poor that I made an account so I could post this. You almost always have an answer to every problem or at the very least can point someone in the right direction. I have the upmost respect for you by the way.

Pesticide removal is the right way to go. Medicine can still be safe if the pesticides are low reduced below detection which in most cases is between .1-.2ppm. You take in 10x more pesticide eating an apple. Hexane washing is on the right path, most of these pesticides are virtually insoluble in saturated Aliphatic hydrocarbon, but you still have to filter it out so you need to use size exclusion to remove them. a 15 micron filter will probably get you below detection.

The other option is saponification, most of these pesticides undergo hydrolysis under highly alkaline PH. Let it sit for 8-10 hours at a high ph preferably 10-12 and then mix thoroughly, make sure to rebalance or when you begin to take off your solvent you'll make soap. hope this helps people out.

 

[Graywolf]

Okay... Everyone saying (Throw it away only use clean material) you're a bunch of impractical idiots, and I'm not just saying this without a reason let me explain. If you live in CA then you know that we grow grapes.... a lot of grapes. Myclobutanil is predominately used in CA, I mean like 90% or so of the Myclobutanil is used here in CA, pretty much the only other place it is used is France. Its used to control PM on grapes and is sprayed by atomizers or dumped from aircraft over vines to get onto the plant. It travels literally 100's of miles in the air and if you grow out doors pretty much anywhere in CA then you have it. You have it in low or high doses which is why it comes up so often. People know not to use Eagle 20 but it still comes up in an outdoor field.

Graywolf, Ive followed you for years I mean nearly a decade man and this is hands down the weakest chain of responses I've ever seen from you, as a matter of fact it was so poor that I made an account so I could post this. You almost always have an answer to every problem or at the very least can point someone in the right direction. I have the upmost respect for you by the way.

Pesticide removal is the right way to go. Medicine can still be safe if the pesticides are low reduced below detection which in most cases is between .1-.2ppm. You take in 10x more pesticide eating an apple. Hexane washing is on the right path, most of these pesticides are virtually insoluble in saturated Aliphatic hydrocarbon, but you still have to filter it out so you need to use size exclusion to remove them. a 15 micron filter will probably get you below detection.

The other option is saponification, most of these pesticides undergo hydrolysis under highly alkaline PH. Let it sit for 8-10 hours at a high ph preferably 10-12 and then mix thoroughly, make sure to rebalance or when you begin to take off your solvent you'll make soap. hope this helps people out.

Sorry to disappoint you, but when supplying pharmaceuticals to others, I stand by my position that there is less tolerance for imperfections.

You offer your opinion, but not details of a process for pesticide removal demonstrated safe by subsequent testing. I will assign greater weight to your opinion if you can do so, showing removal to FDA accepted limits.

As far as using a 15 micron filter to remove, how does simple filtration work with pesticides in solution?

 

[Arty]

Hey MrSg,
just joined here as I have been working for a cultivation company and was given a full room dedicated to extractions and thought I can join some convos. We are also in northern Cali too lol. peace in medicine is a local collective I go to as well.
I get there are FORUM talk so I expected some of the responses you may have received.. I 100% agree on clean medicine but sometimes there are unexpected changes or circumstances. they ll start with the grower but the truth is in the oil.
Did you pre test flower or oil?
With that said ill get straight to your answer. SAVE THAT SHIT!!! lol
right now some may not understand that things can be cleaned.
I have a 20l vessel co2 extraction machine that I have been running daily and have been extracting for other people as well. You cant believe everyone when they say they are clean. a test will tell the truth.
I processed some material only to find out that it not only failed but exceeded the threshold of 2.4mg by 300 times... yea holly shit is right. that's when my research started on pesticides. I cant disclose much to you at the moment but know that the process for cleaning c02 is currently in use to hit lower threshholds by 98%. there fore if you hold on to it, you wont lose out.
This test will aplly to lower % to hit clearity and can also be done multiple times to reduce numbers to nearly 99% cleanliness. IMO I don't like to smoke everything I see because it might be dirty..
Hope this answers your questions and good luck with everything

 

[PureProcess]

So I did not get a chance to read this till now.

I should clarify, you want a 15 micron filter but it needs to be reverse flow aka at the top of your column so that material cannot travel with gravity through the column itself. that being said the filter alone is not enough, you need chromatography grade silica. Ichromatography is the place to go and I recommend florasil 75. for removal of 60% or so of the pesticides you'll find in cannabis oil.

there is another way that works very well as I said before, saponefiaiton or esterification of the ester group on the organophosphates you'll run into. You need to cleave off that ester group attached to all organophosphates. This can be very risky as most of these pesticides when cleaved can become highly highly toxic like where the LD is no more then a 1/20th of a ml. The advantage to this is when you do this process you greatly change the polarity of the molecule allowing you to adsorb it onto chromatography resins. May I recommend reverse phase with hexane. start here let me know how it goes theres a lot to it get to work.

 

[Graywolf]

So I did not get a chance to read this till now.

I should clarify, you want a 15 micron filter but it needs to be reverse flow aka at the top of your column so that material cannot travel with gravity through the column itself. that being said the filter alone is not enough, you need chromatography grade silica. Ichromatography is the place to go and I recommend florasil 75. for removal of 60% or so of the pesticides you'll find in cannabis oil.

there is another way that works very well as I said before, saponefiaiton or esterification of the ester group on the organophosphates you'll run into. You need to cleave off that ester group attached to all organophosphates. This can be very risky as most of these pesticides when cleaved can become highly highly toxic like where the LD is no more then a 1/20th of a ml. The advantage to this is when you do this process you greatly change the polarity of the molecule allowing you to adsorb it onto chromatography resins. May I recommend reverse phase with hexane. start here let me know how it goes theres a lot to it get to work.

Thanks for the clarification on the 15 micron filters and suggestion of Florosil! We've use silicon beads for column chromatography with Hexane and Acetone to separate fractions, but haven't gone after insecticides.

Successful experiments make the world go round, as long as they also include verification, especially when supplying meds to others. 60% removal ostensibly means 40% residual, justifying physical tests.

As you note, the LD-50, or where half the experimental population died, is low on some pesticides, because they are neurotoxins. Some of the military nerve gas formulations came from insecticide research.

We are not only extracting them along with the essential oils, but are concentrating them as well, potentially leading to a chronic condition, if not an immediate acute reaction like half the population dying.

Sooooooooooo, though paranoid I may be, unless a pesticide removal lab is properly equipped and consistently operated, with subsequent professional testing, the though of potential issues with pesticides, overpowers my personal sense of adventure as a consumer.

Having said that, I believe that what educated and informed adults do them themselves is their own business, as long as they don't expose the uneducated and uninformed to peril.

 

[LittleTerps]

One of the reasons we got a GC, was to protect ourselves and our equipment from pesticides on incoming material that isn't from our garden. If it is contaminated, it fouls not only the concentrate, but the recovered butane and internals of our systems, requiring a full dump and internal cleaning. It only took once for us to lose our sense of humor.

Your lab ostensibly screwed up, but you may have also concentrated it some with your extraction, sooo the truth may be in the middle. A recent Oregonian expose', revealed the presence of both pesticides and residual solvent in a high percent of the random concentrate samples they had tested, so it is a problem we're all stuck with, unless we only process our own material.

Hey Graywolf, when you point out the contamination of recovered butane. Would it also apply to CO2 contamination as well if pesticides were present?

 

[GreenWitch]

I know everyone is trying to be helpful. I do not think "Start with pesticide free trim" is that helpful. Does anyone have a process that reduces pesticides in concentrates to OR standards including Myclo? Thanks