Contact Us
Want to advertise here? Contact us today to begin

S1 and phenotypes

Discussion in 'The Breeders Lab' started by 0MEGA, Sep 18, 2009.

  1. 0MEGA

    0MEGA Guest

    I was just curious, do S1 seeds have the pheno and traits of the mother? or can the phenotype change after making an S1 with recessive genes.
  2. elboaf


    anyone ? 9 years later haha
    Smoking Gun, 1diesel1 and SoLowDolo like this.
  3. From my understanding of genetics, if it is self pollinated then the genotype will be identical as should the phenotype of the p1 mother since paternal lineage is not present. Only if you cross it will another plant will different recessive traits possibly be expressed.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
    Smoking Gun likes this.
  4. Hahah I just realized this post was 9 years ago! At least he finally got an answer.
    WhtChocolate and Smoking Gun like this.
  5. They are different. Every seed is going to be a different plant, but s1 can show remarkable similarity to the parent in some resulting offspring. The idea of 1 phenotype though is absolutely not even a little true. I think people think cannabis is different than any other crop and it's not. Vegetables go through thousands, tens of thousands of generations and still life finds a way to make those inconsistent. 99% of breeders are slamming f1s together, never even entering the gene pool of any of the plants involved. If you don't even go to f2, you don't even reconfigure the genes so to speak to show all expressions. You're seeing a good side of both parents, but not opening their genetic chest at all. Unless there is a major movement among what sells as seeds, expect any cannabis seed to be a random plant, period. S1, F1, R1, even double digit generations will not yield single plant seeds. You can hope for parental expression but it's not guaranteed at all. There can be remarkable consistency, but nothing close to what is implied or believed by probably most people. No seed is the same as its parents or brothers or sisters or children and life finds a way. Expect variance. Expect S1s of F1s of F1s of F1s to show dramatic variance.
    WhtChocolate likes this.
  6. I like this topic....The F1 offspring as a result from a cross between parents of different traits won’t breed true. If those F2s are self pollinated, recessive traits will appear in inconsistent numbers. Which is why F2 are so inconsistent. Alleles segregate independently from each other during reproduction/mitosis, giving each allele a chance to express itself.
    WhtChocolate likes this.
  7. If people could make 1 plant seeds, why would anyone clone? Why would anyone hunt for plants? Anyone's whose ever popped even a single pack of seeds, knows this isn't true. People wouldn't propagate single plants at a time if seeds were consistent. Think of farming. Even Monsantos genetically modified soy isn't free from inconsistencies. S1 seeds are NOT all like their parent, are not consistent, and aren't even all the same sex, let alone plant! Common sense says genetics is not as easy as is being written here.
    thunderfudge likes this.
  8. Daikokuten, you are very close but missing a piece. S1 seeds are absolutely an attempt at creating a genetic duplicate without cloning. The reason F1 plants have the variance they do is because there are two parents contributing to the subsequent genome. If making a seed from only one parent the resultant set of genes will only derive its genes from a single gene set; thus resulting in offspring that is genetically almost identical to the parent plant. There may be some slight variation from random gene recombination and mutation, but the offspring will predominantly resemble the parent. This is why we have seen a drastic increase in seeds from self bred plants. It is also how so many of the worlds closest held strains have found themselves in all corners of the Earth.
    WhtChocolate likes this.
  9. You've obviously never run a significant amount of s1 seeds. I've popped hundreds. Your understanding of genetics is incorrect. The reason there's more s1 now is because the trend has been toward individual plants, instead of consistent seeds, for the last 40 years. Popularity and hype of single plants and cannabis' natural vigor in cloning has pushed the market towards finding and reproducing individual plants. You obviously haven't ran any s1 seeds and don't fully understand genetics, so why are you talking like an authority? Everything i said is factually correct from science and experience. My post was written casually, but anyone with knowledge of genetics understands what i mean by f2 opens the genetic chest. Your fundamental knowledge of how genes equals plants from seed is flawed. We also aren't even positive on how many genes most plants actually have, nor has cannabis been extensively genomed like corn or rice. There are duplicate genes and unexpressed genes in every seed potentially. To say they only have one genetic expression is just flat out false. S1 seeds have obvious and dramatic genetic expressions that differ like any other seed. This is not opinion, it's known science. Anyone whose grown out S1 seeds would also know what i'm talking about because you can get males, lots of hermies from stable plants, and dramatically different looking plants. You guys are speaking from inexperience and false knowledge. I'm sorry if that bothers either of you, but that's the truth. People want the closest thing to a clone of a famous plant. S1 is technically the closest, but not even close in reality. They are some of the most inconsistent and hermie ridden seeds and good breeders know this.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
    WhtChocolate and Smoking Gun like this.
  10. I wasn’t trying to offend just fill in some info, and I did seem to miss-read your first few scentences; but I do have a pretty good grasp on genetics. I don’t dispute that there is genetic variation in S1 seeds, with males and variants showing, but as both you and I seem to agree they are an attempt at recreating its parent in duplicate. It is true that genetics are not as cut and dry as one genome, one kind of offspring; there is so much we do not know about genetic recombination and allele expression that it is impossible to know what the outcome of any seed is going to be ahead of time. And I do understand your point about F2 seeds, that is where the greatest genetic variation is going to appear. F2 generations can be of great use to breeders, less good for the average grower looking for good smoke.

    But back on the topic of S1 seed, there is going to be variation in the offspring but not the same amount of potential variation as with two parents from different gene pools. If there is only one set of genes to recombine the final possibilities will be limited when compared to breeding with two parents. Resultant S1 seeds will show variation but they will be rather similar genetically as they are only drawing genes from a single set.
    Daikokuten and WhtChocolate like this.
  11. With you. But rather similar i don't necessarily agree on. Maybe rather similar to us or our view, but not necessarily genetically(but tbh this is semantics). I don't take anything on the path to learning offensively. I apologize if i seemed upset, i tend to not take anything personally, but am enthusiastic about plant science. I think we almost entirely agree, i'm just trying to be totally realistic about outcomes for people reading this. I feel almost responsible to give a realistic view of what you get from seeds because so many people come here for knowledge. That's why i lean towards harsh reality and trying to give a realistic expectation for people. In the current cannabis market, 50% or more of almost every pack of seeds is going to herm or be shit plants. And if we're being brutally honest from experience, 50% is very generous(especially for S1s!).
    Smoking Gun and Smokesmcghee like this.