Sealed room problems: phantom deficiencies, leaf necrosis; offgassing/outgassing

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Resinable

Resinable

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Just noticed the activity on this thread . . .

I have not been able to pinpoint the cause of the off gassing but after six months of fresh air I am about to switch back to sealed with an intermittent purge fan going.

I don't think purge fans are normally necessary in sealed rooms; my last sealed room ran for five years without any problems; I think Jackmayoffer runs completely sealed rooms with no purge. But every room is different and maybe sometimes it is necessary?

Co2 is present at roughly 380 ppms or .038% of the atmosphere; 78% is nitrogen 22% oxygen . . . I don't think going from 380 to even 2000 ppms of CO2 would cause there to be a lack of oxygen . . . I don't think that is the problem.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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263
Resinable said:
Just noticed the activity on this thread . . .

I have not been able to pinpoint the cause of the off gassing but after six months of fresh air I am about to switch back to sealed with an intermittent purge fan going.

I don't think purge fans are normally necessary in sealed rooms; my last sealed room ran for five years without any problems; I think Jackmayoffer runs completely sealed rooms with no purge. But every room is different and maybe sometimes it is necessary?

Co2 is present at roughly 380 ppms or .038% of the atmosphere; 78% is nitrogen 22% oxygen . . . I don't think going from 380 to even 2000 ppms of CO2 would cause there to be a lack of oxygen . . . I don't think that is the problem.
Click to expand...

I thought you were running a burner? ppms should probably be above 380 if you are (in a sealed environment).

Here is the reason for my suggestion:

CO2 is heavier than air, and will displace air in a room if it becomes concentrated enough.

With enough displacement, the floor level may be totally stacked with CO2 while higher up is mostly oxygen. You can think of this like what oil and water look like when you mix them (two separate layers).

This is why I asked where you are taking CO2 measurements from--due to its density if it is not being constantly mixed from the floor up, there will be a much higher concentration at floor level.

If you're only @ 380 it doesn't sound like the culprit, but this might be something for other sealed room guys to think about.
 
reeldrag

reeldrag

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I had the same thing happen a few yrs back looked just like your pics to a T anyway I sprayed with avid what ever it was went away and never came back. Someone told me it was a clyeman mite only way to see them is with a very high power scope.
 
M

Mitygrows

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So iv had the same thang happen my last runs im all most have the same setup. And it took me a long time to find out iv been over watering u need to let the soil dry out be for you water try it for a week or two and im 100.it well fix it please let me no
 
pussOGbrah

pussOGbrah

220
63
Resinable said:
Just noticed the activity on this thread . . .

I have not been able to pinpoint the cause of the off gassing but after six months of fresh air I am about to switch back to sealed with an intermittent purge fan going.

I don't think purge fans are normally necessary in sealed rooms; my last sealed room ran for five years without any problems; I think Jackmayoffer runs completely sealed rooms with no purge. But every room is different and maybe sometimes it is necessary?

Co2 is present at roughly 380 ppms or .038% of the atmosphere; 78% is nitrogen 22% oxygen . . . I don't think going from 380 to even 2000 ppms of CO2 would cause there to be a lack of oxygen . . . I don't think that is the problem.
Click to expand...

Hey Res thanks for posting. I dont think the oxygen depletion is from c02 offsetting it, i think its from the propane burner running in a tightly sealed room. When a flame burns it consumes oxygen. If your plants are too small to offset the depletion the percent of oxygen in your room could change from 20.4 % (atmospheric) to as low as 17% before you dont have enough oxygen for your burner to light. A propane burner running in a room with 18 or 19% oxygen is not going to combust 100% leading to ethylene, sulfur dioxide, and carbon monoxide buildup.

Even ethylene levels as low as .01 ppm can have major effects on a tomato plant (one of the most sensitive plants to ethylene) within 24 hours.

Here are some articles i found very interesting about ethylene buildup in pro greenhouses.>>>>

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/article/19876/ethylene-in-the-greenhouse
And,,
http://www.hort.cornell.edu/mattson/leatherwood/

I've also run sealed rooms for a while with no problems, same burner/ controller setup and everything. I only ran into problems on the last room i built.
 
We Solidarity

We Solidarity

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^ that above post is pretty solid...i'd look into that for sure.
I've had plants look exactly like that whenever i grew in this one space, it was only one spot in a big area that they were negatively affected. We ran every option- off gassing, the atmosphere, temps, root problems, EVERYTHING. just this little 4x8 area in a big warehouse that gave plants what looked like a severe iron deficiency- to the point that all new growth was bone white. Seeing as most of those problems are on the top leaf tiers, i'm guessing you're having an iron deficiency.

Here's where it gets interesting.
That tiny 4x8 area was against a wall...on the other side of that wall was a machinist shop where they had a giant magnetic machine. I always wondered why i had to wipe black dust off that wall every month or so, turns out that thing was so powerful it was leaching the iron out of the plants. soon as we moved them they were fine and bounced back within a week.

while i'm not purposing that there's a giant magnetron machine next to your grow area, I will ask if you're using a magnetic pump, and if you've ever dried it out. I've heard that those things can draw iron as well, and poorly chelated iron (like the iron sources in hydro nutes) can be sucked right out of your feed when it passes through the pump.
 
pussOGbrah

pussOGbrah

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no constant pump running, handwater fresh each time. plus if it was a nute issue it would show up in unsealed veg room..Interesting story though haha

Just wanted to update. Tried running sealed with purge fan cycling 10 mins every 3 hours. co2 set at 700. Less stress, but still going from a 10/10 to 4/10. Turned off burner, but left the purge setup running and ac on too. Within 3 days, perfect plants..

Definitely a co2/ burner issue. I know resinable already figured that out, but im still left wondering why this is causing issues. I really am skeptical its offgassing (ethylene s03, c03 etc), since so many run burners without problems, and my flame is pure blue. also have a co3 alarm which has never gone off.

Doing a little research into c02 and plant interactions i learned about rubisco and how the plant processes c02. Maybe it has something to do with not having enough rubisco or what not to process the extra starch from higher c02? i dunno half brained but whatever. I just wanna run my c02 setup again..
 
fishwhistle

fishwhistle

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263
My son had a similar issue in a 12x12 room and we came to the conclusion it was the burner after reading other threads,it was replaced with a bottle and no more issues.I beleive some sealed rooms are too small for the burner especially when the plants are young.
 
joe guy

joe guy

14
3
Dude garden hoses are nasty shit i hate watering even my lawn with them... Ever been real thirsty and toos a sip from the hose? Fing nasty rite.there.ill tell ya what... Id say that is what ur problem is commingfrom.. And if ur burner isnt burning a clear blue flame ur not combusting all the fuel but u said ur not using rite now so that couldnt be it... But good luck and keep us updated...
 
L

ltphone

2
1
Dude I had this problem for over a year. Tried everything. Nothing worked till i cracked a door open for a night. the next day every leaf was erect and nor clawed. After that i installed a exhaust fan that would have a 10 min delay ( to use the co2 in the room) then exhaust all the air out of the room through a carbon filter for 10mins. Then re power the smart c02 controller with bottles hooked up to a solenoid. Problem solved. Cost me over 100k b4 i caught it.
 
L

ltphone

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1
I had the exact same problem for over a year. First 2 crops came off with 7lb/1000w in 7 weeks with a 2 week cloning + 10 days veg on a 400w MH and barely even going there!

Though it was nutes or my burner not burning clean although it did pass a co1 test but I switched to co2 bottles anyways. After that my ladies started looking like the pics of off gassing. After about 6 months everything was ruined for about for a year and a half. I took a loss in the hydro + rent and risked my ass for a long fuking time just to go backwards.

Anyways one day I cracked the door in my sealed room (which I have setup plenty of in the past using the same methods and everything was groovy.) and put a fan in front of it blowing air in. And the next day it all the plants had no claw/drooping and leaves were erect like they were on viagra!!! I couldn't believe it cause i've done this b4 and sealed rooms always rocked and were more secure. So I closed the door and the next day and they are like totally dying again. I repeated this 4 times with the same results before I knew that was it. So I don't like this open room bullshit and just packed it up. When I was moving I went to move a res and I found a hole rotted into the subfloor from a hairline crack in the res! There was a wood subfloor on top of concrete in the basement and I only saw the hole and discovered the leaky res once i packed the place. So the whole time the subfloor had res water leaking under it. I can just imagine what it looks like under that. Ugh! I figured that was it the whole time. Some nasty shyt thriving under the whole thing. I did smell something moldy a few times but the basement had flooded more than once and was a leaky, so i figured all that combined caused the problems. I had lost all pride in myself for a moment. it was a very, very, dark time for me for a minute there. lol.
 
D

Daggy

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Holy Shit!!! I am having similar issue in sealed room with gavitas. Only I think mines is worst. Plants are drooping and folding in the middle. The only diff is I am running a c02 bottle. Fuck ive turned the lights down to 600 and im hoping for the best, but i might need to set up some intake and exhaust.
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

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263
@Daggy Can you tell me more about the materials you used. Have you checked the roots to make sure it isn't an infestation of RA or FG?
 
D

Daggy

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Homesteader said:
@Daggy Can you tell me more about the materials you used. Have you checked the roots to make sure it isn't an infestation of RA or FG?
Click to expand...
The room is made up of RMAX 1 in ch insualtion board with foam backing. Running 6 k Gavitas in a 15x18x12 room. Like the original post says I am an experienced gardener and my nutes, runoff, ph and temps are on point. I have scoped as hard as I can for root bugs and bugs on leaf with a 40x and no luck. I wish I could find bugs, then atleast I would know what my issue is. I can se the MG deff, but I keep adding mag and nothing happens.
http://i.invalid.com/mQg4p88l.jpg
http://i.invalid.com/nVpX1zMl.jpg
http://i.invalid.com/fMUYVbwl.jpg http://i.invalid.com/oRzYDVfl.jpg
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

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Did you use pressure treated? Glue behind the panels? Is this in a basement? Have you grown in this basement before? You pics were invalid.
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

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263
@Wentworth have you grown in your same location succesfully prior?
 
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