uc vs aeroponics

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J

john guest

74
8
The timer/solenoid wiring looks pretty straightforward.
Connect +12v on pin 7, 0v on pin 2 (the timer fires up).
I`d put a wire link between pin 7 and pin 1 (that puts a +12v feed onto pin 1 which is the common).
Attach the solenoid wires to pin 2 and pin 3 (pin 2 is 0v, pin 3 is N/O but will carry +12v to the solenoid when the relay energises for 1 second)

Then you just have the plumbing to do :)
Plumbing reminded me of something else, you`ll be needing a footpump and a car tyre air pressure gauge (digital ideally) that can read upto at least 120psi if the pump cuts out at 115psi.
 
B

Bobby Smith

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As far as the relief valve, I'm honestly thinking I might just not have one - pump will be set to turn off at 140PSI, and I'm thinking (hoping) that the pump would crap out before any serious problems would arise from the tank exploding or anything like that.

Also, have been having issues identifying/sourcing a proper relief valve - once it's sourced, installing it is a piece of cake - see link:

Post #355:



Regarding the filter, I'm in a similar boat - I ordered this one (the "large strainer", halfway down the page) - gonna install it just like the pic from post #355 above:
 
B

Bobby Smith

1,378
0
The timer/solenoid wiring looks pretty straightforward.
Connect +12v on pin 7, 0v on pin 2 (the timer fires up).
I`d put a wire link between pin 7 and pin 1 (that puts a +12v feed onto pin 1 which is the common).
Attach the solenoid wires to pin 2 and pin 3 (pin 2 is 0v, pin 3 is N/O but will carry +12v to the solenoid when the relay energises for 1 second)

Then you just have the plumbing to do :)
Plumbing reminded me of something else, you`ll be needing a footpump and a car tyre air pressure gauge (digital ideally) that can read upto at least 120psi if the pump cuts out at 115psi.

Lol..........I sure hope within a few days when I need to put it together I have a fucking clue what you're talking about regarding the pins and whatnot :) - I'm a fast learner though, we'll see how I do.

And what would I need the footpump for? If the pump craps out on me? Because I'll just buy another pump for that eventuality..........I'm lazy :)

I'm planning on getting a couple cheapo $10 pressure gauges and having them inline with the system...........would those suffice?
 
J

john guest

74
8
It`ll be a walk in the park.
The timer is definitely the ON/OFF type. On page 4 of the 422 timer pdf it says Sequence: ON/OFF Relay energized during T1. (T1 being the misting duration)
http://www.instrumentation-central.com/ATC/422.pdf

Thats that sorted but you posted a link to the 382 timer manual and not the 422, so thats a bit of a worry lol

The footpump and air pressure gauge are for setting the accumulator`s air precharge, a water pump wont do it.
 
B

Bobby Smith

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So I'm gonna need a footpump and air pressure gauge to initially charge the tank? Just a one time thing, correct? And any old cheapo pump and air gauge will do?

What PSI would I be shooting for when charging? My 140PSI target max, my 115PSI target min, or something in-between?

EDIT: John, what size prefilter do I need? I have 100 micron on the way, is that sufficient? Or do I need to go smaller?
 
T

TightBush

25
1
bob i was looking over the pdf that you had posted for the motor that you were ordering in post number 74 and i noticed it said 115v AC. I thought you were going with 12v so maybe check and make sure you ordered the right one.

I found an adjustable relief valve herehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002KMQI8Y?linkCode=xm2&tag=invihand-20

Does anyone know what the difference between an accumulator and an expansion tank. All the accumulators that i have looked at are smaller than 2 gallons or they are rediculous expensive 250+. Will they both accomplish the same thing.
 
T

TightBush

25
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John we need to charge the accumulator tank? I have been confused about that because I did read somewhere that the tank needed to be within 2 psi of the pump cut in? or the pump would cycle constantly or something? i have no idea if that is right. What is the reason we are charging it, why couldnt we just connect it and go.
 
B

Bobby Smith

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bob i was looking over the pdf that you had posted for the motor that you were ordering in post number 74 and i noticed it said 115v AC. I thought you were going with 12v so maybe check and make sure you ordered the right one.

I found an adjustable relief valve herehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002KMQI8Y?linkCode=xm2&tag=invihand-20

Does anyone know what the difference between an accumulator and an expansion tank. All the accumulators that i have looked at are smaller than 2 gallons or they are rediculous expensive 250+. Will they both accomplish the same thing.

1) Timer and solenoids will run off of 12V to account for power outages (although we NEVER have them) - pump will still be 115V because it makes life easier (and the system can still function down to like 50 or 70PSI, which would be a couple (few) of hour's worth of power outage).

2) That relief valve only goes up to 100 PSI - I'm gonna be in the 115-140PSI range so that wouldn't work for me (or for you if you're getting the same pump).

3) As I understand it they're the same thing - not sure where you're located, but the tank I got (linked above) is pretty cheap for the size/pressure rating.

EDIT: TB, the one that I bought comes "pre-charged" from the factory, so I'd think (hope) that would preclude me having to charge it before I started using it.

Also, the link I posted above is out of stock (probably should've looked before I ordered); looking around and found it on eBay for much cheaper ($50 all in):



Trying to cancel that other order now......
 
J

john guest

74
8
The factory precharge will be too low, you pump air into the air valve on the tank until the air pressure is 2psi below the cut-in point of the pump.

Lets say the pump cuts in at 100psi and cuts out at 120psi, the precharge will need to be 98psi. As water is forced into the tank the air is compressed into a smaller space, this makes room for the water.

When you reach 100psi there will be 0.07gal in the tank (4.4 gal tank) so there is always a small amount of water reserve left in the tank when the pump cuts in at 100psi. (you don`t want it to run completely dry)

If you use the factory precharge of say 15psi (4.4gal tank), the usable tank volume will be drastically reduced. By the time you reach the 100psi cut-in pressure you`ll have 3.26gal of incompressible water filling up the tank space instead of 0.07gal and a lot of compressible air.
 
B

Bobby Smith

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Thanks John, makes sense about the tank being pre-charged............and thanks for hanging around.

So, hit a couple of snags, but nothing I can't handle:

1) Pump was out of stock, which turned out to be a blessing in disguise..........cancelled that order for $170 and ordered it through this site (after some looking around) - $127 and FREE SHIPPING!!



2) Here's the email exchange I received from the timer company - long story short, timer won't be in for a month+, but I have a solution - ordered (4) 1/4" 120V solenoids off of eBay, because I already have the CAP short cycle timer.........so I think that combo should get me through until I figure out the whole 12V thingy........

"Thank you for your order. In many cases it does not matter which arrangement is used. It is only whether the output is energized first or second. This means that in an on/off arrangement the relay in the timer will be immediately energized then followed by and off cycle. Both times On and Off are adjustable. Off/on starts with the relay energized followed by the on cycle.

I also noticed that you selected 12VDC Powered. Please confirm that this is what you want. The item will need to be manufactured. It should ship in approximately 3-4 weeks. We will advise.

If something available with quick delivery the 422A100F30X is in stock but will need to be powered either with 24-240VAC or 24 VDC.

Do you need a socket for wiring? You will need an 8 pin socket to wire.

http://www.iseincstore.com/422_timer.aspx

We are holding your order awaiting your response.


If I can be of further assistance please advise"
 
B

Bobby Smith

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Lol..........ummmm, John?

Do I need what he's trying to sell me to wire up the timer?

"Thanks for the email.

We will release your order. The socket is needed to make the connections. It is available in (2) types. See below links:

http://www.iseincstore.com/8pinsurfacedinrailsocket.aspx (Most common)

http://www.iseincstore.com/8pinpanelmountingsocketwithrearfacingterminals.aspx (Has rear facing terminals)

If you want one of these we can add to your existing order.

If I can be of further assistance please advise."
 
J

john guest

74
8
Hi Bob
Yes, you`ll need the base as it has the connection screw terminals, the timer plugs straight into it.

If you lower the pumps cut-off pressure the cut-in will alter change by a similar amount so it`ll be something like 105psi and 140psi. The 4.5gal tank will give you about a gallon between refills.
If the power goes out and you need to run the tank down from 105psi to 50psi you`ll have a 1.6gal safety net.
 
B

Bobby Smith

1,378
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Thanks; for $6 each I'm just gonna order both and figure out which one to use at a later date.
 
J

john guest

74
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Here`s the wiring diagram with the socket viewed from the top. I`ve assumed the pins will take the shortest route to the screw terminals as I couldnt find any info on the socket. It wont take 5 minutes to wire it up.
 
422 wiring diagram
B

Bobby Smith

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Thanks bro, I really, really appreciate it - I have a shitload of questions for you, so I'm gonna type them out and number them for easy answering for you..........my sister lives in London (Fitzrovia) for the next year and change, so if you're anywhere around there you've got a few nights at the pub on my dime - I'm over there every few months visiting.

Thanks again, and a long list is heading your way in the next hour or two.............as an aside, could a mod either rename this thread or move the pertinent info (posts) to a different thread?

I think this could be a really good resource for anyone thinking of diving into HP Aero, but the title doesn't really do it justice..........maybe "HP Aero For Dummies" or a similar title?
 
B

Bobby Smith

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Somewhat Epic Post

1) What size prefilter do I need? Ordered a 100 micron one (two of them, actually) – is that too large?
2) My system is a vertical SOG made of out 4” PVC – 15 columns, 6 plants per column. I was going to try and get away with two misters per column (one at the top serving the top three plants and one at the middle serving the bottom three plants) – any idea on how/if this would work? I could step up to 3 misters per column, but not sure if the system could easily handle 45 misters (obviously the current plan is 30).
3) There’s going to be four solenoids controlling the output , with two lines around the octagon – tee off of the accumulator tank to each side (side “A” and “B”), then another tee at each side to the start of each line (call them “A1” and “A2” and “B1” and “B2”, respectively). The octagon has a 7’ diameter, so it’s a circumference of ~21’. So two lines at 21’ is 42’, and then another 3’ per column (15*3’ = 45’) (for the middle mister, the top mister will be right at the top) per each column, so another 45’ + 42’ = a total system of 87’ of tubing and 30 misters. Here’s a quick video I shot to show how the system worked when it was lp aero/NFT, just to give you an idea of what I’m trying to describe – this setup only had one feed per column (as opposed to the two feeds I’m planning): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLsQGDcTevs (skip to 40 seconds to see the system operate).
4) The pump will pressurize to 140PSI and turn back on at 115PSI – any idea how often the pump will need to cycle with this setup and a 4.4 gallon accumulator tank? No need to calculate Boyle’s Law, just a simple guesstimate would suffice – assume 3 seconds per every five minutes to give me a guess.
5) I’d love to be able to run in one second cycles, but I have serious doubts about the ability to deliver that much pressure to 30 misters in that short of a time – that being said, think I could do it in 3 seconds? I just have no concept for how quickly 115-140PSI could deliver pressure to 30 nozzles over 90’ of tubing.
6) Instead of having “A1” feed all top nozzles and “A2” feed all lower nozzles, would I be better off alternating them to have equal pressure between the lines? I.e., each circuit would have half top nozzles and half bottom nozzles so pressure would be equal between them.
7) What should my setpoint for my pressure relief valve be? Since the pump will be adjusted to shutoff at 140PSI, would 150PSI be a good relief valve pressure? And what is the large difference in prices of relief valves? I can find them for $10 or $100 – does it matter which one I use? Would this work? :

8) In order to have a backup in case my main pump goes out, is there some reason I couldn’t just install this pump inline with the system (before the accumulator tank) – it switches on at 85PSI and off at 100PSI, so while not delivering the super high pressure my main pump does, it would still keep my system pressurized enough to operate if the main pump went down, right?

Well, that’s all for now…………but trust me, there’s lots more – thanks again for all your help, sir.

EDIT: just to make clear, I'm not trying/expecting to get the true pearly white HP aero roots and all that jazz with this setup, because I realize I'd have to have a mister at every plant for that to happen - I'm trying to save power, not use a medium, and run DTW, which makes HP aero my choice.

If the roots of the 4 plants not getting directly misted in each column "only" look like LP aero roots than I can live with that :) Just wanna make sure they'd be getting fed somehow.
 
B

Bobby Smith

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John, Quick Question

Could a 4.4 gallon accumulator tank handle 90 misters at 115-140PSI for a one or two second interval?

Figure I might as well do it right and have a mister per plant............so would a 4.4 gallon tank be able to support that or would I need to go with a larger accumulator? Again, the pump will pressurize the tank to 140PSI and kick on when pressure drops to 115PSI.
 
J

john guest

74
8
Hi Bob
you weren`t kidding about the questions lol.
1. should be enough
2. depends on the individual nozzle flowrate but 30 shouldn`t be a problem.
3 i`d be concerned about the roots obstructing the mist but if nft is acceptable it wont matter too much.
4. Assuming 30 common nozzles, 1sec 5min cycles, no run-on or air in the lines, 0.25GPM from the pump, the pump will run for 4 minutes every 8hours. With run-on and/or air in the lines it`ll be less as you`ll waste a lot more.
5. If the lines are kept pressurized it`ll be more or less instant. If the lines drain between mistings it`ll take a while for the air to be purged.
The layout is important because as nozzles start flowing they can rob pressure and flow from the ones that haven`t kicked in. For example, a closed loop of pipe with nozzles equally spaced will perform very differently to a straight length of pipe fed from one end.
6. Balancing pressure and flow is half the battle, it`ll be more difficult with a lot of nozzles and long pipe runs. With higher flow nozzles you may need to use larger diameter tubing to feed the solenoids so there is enough flowrate available to feed multiple lines after each solenoid. For example; a single 1/4" line to the solenoid wont have the flow to supply five 1/4" lines after the solenoid.
7. It should match the maximum safe working pressure of the tank, they normally open gradually so a 150psi valve may begin to open at 145 and be fully open at 155. The specsheet or sales guy should have the info.
8. If everything is balanced, the lower pressure pump will only affect the mist quality and flowrate.
EDIT. A nozzle at each site will give you low pressure results as it`ll drench the roots, the ones not misted directly are more likely to have the hp root structure if the mist is fine enough :)

A 4.4 gal tank could service 90 nozzles but there are a lot of variables/losses involved, In a perfect world the tank would run for just under an hour. The refill time doesnt change ~4 minutes from 105-140psi.
 
B

Bobby Smith

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Ha, you are the man!!!

Had me thinking I was gonna need 90 nozzles, but it sounds like I can get away with 30 :)

Gonna be running 3/8" tubing right up to each solenoid (1/4", with a reducer right in front) to ensure there's decent pressure when it energizes.

And I'm trying to design it whereby every solenoid is as close to the misters it's servicing as possible to reduce loss of pressure in the lines between runs...........thanks a lot man, sounds like this could work :)

Totally redesigning the octagon (making it a 5' diameter instead of 7') and finishing up my room buildout, so I've got a lot on my plate this week (in addition to the conversion to HP aero).
 
F

frophead

13
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John-

What formula do you use for calculating how much a pressure tank can hold vs PSI in the tank? You mentioned a couple times a 4.4 gal tank can hold 0.04856 or whatever at XXXpsi. How can we calculate this ourselves?
 
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