Undercurrent Minus Airstones Plus Cooling Question.

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Shawnery

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What do you guys think about using a running waterfall for DO production and agitation instead of an air pump with air stones in a undercurrent system? Anyone who knows fish tanks will know of the over the back filter systems that add oxygen and produce positive bacteria. The point wouldn't be for bacteria but for DO production in place of air pumps.

Then instead of running airstones to each individual bucket I would run 1 inch PVC from a manifold connected to the non-submersible pumps positive pressure to the top of each bucket. I would drill a number of holes in the end of PVC and cap them off. This would then create pressurized streams of water to add DO to each bucket through surface agitation.

Everything else would be the same as most other undercurrent systems. 2" return PVC at the bottom of buckets connected to 1" hose that connects to the "in" side of the pump. 1" hose would run to manifold then 1" pvc would run to the tops of each bucket and reservoir. Adding DO to system water through pressurized agitation from streams created by holes drilled in end of pipe.

I've been reading that for a number of reasons DO production through air pumps and stones is the least effective means of adding oxygen to system. There is also the side effect of adding hot air to the water, root system and inside of buckets as well. I actually found two different threads on two different sites that tested DO with meter. Both found that out of 4 different ways of adding oxygen airstones and pumps were by far the worst.

I gathered the above idea from reading a few posts and most of all from DGP's systems.

I was also considering running my air conditioner in a separate room just big enough to hold my reservoir and air conditioner and a bit of space for cool air. Then I would run ducting from the cold room to the grow room. This way I can cool the room and the systems nutritional fluid for the same energy use.

What do you think?
 
H

heisen

2,626
263
What do you guys think about using a running waterfall for DO production and agitation instead of an air pump with air stones in a undercurrent system? Anyone who knows fish tanks will know of the over the back filter systems that add oxygen and produce positive bacteria. The point wouldn't be for bacteria but for DO production in place of air pumps.

Then instead of running airstones to each individual bucket I would run 1 inch PVC from a manifold connected to the non-submersible pumps positive pressure to the top of each bucket. I would drill a number of holes in the end of PVC and cap them off. This would then create pressurized streams of water to add DO to each bucket through surface agitation.

Everything else would be the same as most other undercurrent systems. 2" return PVC at the bottom of buckets connected to 1" hose that connects to the "in" side of the pump. 1" hose would run to manifold then 1" pvc would run to the tops of each bucket and reservoir. Adding DO to system water through pressurized agitation from streams created by holes drilled in end of pipe.

I've been reading that for a number of reasons DO production through air pumps and stones is the least effective means of adding oxygen to system. There is also the side effect of adding hot air to the water, root system and inside of buckets as well. I actually found two different threads on two different sites that tested DO with meter. Both found that out of 4 different ways of adding oxygen airstones and pumps were by far the worst.

I gathered the above idea from reading a few posts and most of all from DGP's systems.

I was also considering running my air conditioner in a separate room just big enough to hold my reservoir and air conditioner and a bit of space for cool air. Then I would run ducting from the cold room to the grow room. This way I can cool the room and the systems nutritional fluid for the same energy use.

What do you think?
Airstones the worst is a little over stated.i see the same exact reports and waterfalls were better but it was negligble.in most cases you have to have water surface to create DO.in my buckets the roots take up the entire top of the Bucket so a waterfall would have no effect pouring on top of the roots.prob better for a big tote.my plants love my air stones dont see any thing worse about this.
Plants less than a month old.

20180527 004623
 
DGP

DGP

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Shawnery,

I use both the waterfall and airstone methods. I followed Current Culture's recommendations for the exact amount of airflow to the system. I think CC uses waterfall as well. The tube that comes back into the control bucket from the chiller has a T fitting on it and as such there are then two waterfalls dropping into the control bucket water. Pay attention also to the size of the water pump, pumping too much or to little can mess with your chiller setup.

One thing I would do different this time is raise the control bucket 6 inches or so. This way you can maintain the correct water level and still have enough headroom to create your waterfall fitting with the T.

I think the airstones are not just about aeration but also about agitation and when the buckets get congested with roots I think this added movement of the water is good.

Lately when I pull the plants up to check the roots they are in a tight bundle shaped just like the square buckets with two nubs where the roots are actually following out the drain holes so there will be congestion.

The water is a very efficient heat exchanging system and when the water goes into the grow it picks up ambient heat very efficiently so I was surprised by this and even when I kept my master res outside the grow in a 50 degree garage during the Winter it still didn't work without a chiller. Before buying a chiller I limped along with throwing frozen milk jugs filled with water in the res 2X or more per day. Works but a pain.

Dee
 
H

heisen

2,626
263
Shawnery,

I use both the waterfall and airstone methods. I followed Current Culture's recommendations for the exact amount of airflow to the system. I think CC uses waterfall as well. The tube that comes back into the control bucket from the chiller has a T fitting on it and as such there are then two waterfalls dropping into the control bucket water. Pay attention also to the size of the water pump, pumping too much or to little can mess with your chiller setup.

One thing I would do different this time is raise the control bucket 6 inches or so. This way you can maintain the correct water level and still have enough headroom to create your waterfall fitting with the T.

I think the airstones are not just about aeration but also about agitation and when the buckets get congested with roots I think this added movement of the water is good.

Lately when I pull the plants up to check the roots they are in a tight bundle shaped just like the square buckets with two nubs where the roots are actually following out the drain holes so there will be congestion.

The water is a very efficient heat exchanging system and when the water goes into the grow it picks up ambient heat very efficiently so I was surprised by this and even when I kept my master res outside the grow in a 50 degree garage during the Winter it still didn't work without a chiller. Before buying a chiller I limped along with throwing frozen milk jugs filled with water in the res 2X or more per day. Works but a pain.

Dee
All about insulating the buckets.my chillers only come on about 5 minutes twice an hour 3 at the most,77 degree ambient 67 water.
Once you get enough growth over the buckets also it shades them out.
I wanted to run waterfalls and could easily design a setup but I use 4 gallon buckets for 3 week veg cycles.theres just no way to add waterfalls when the roots take up the entire buckets.
Theres some waterfall threads here where some guys got some good results and were using big totes,having to clear the roots from under the jets etc.
I dont intend personally to fix something that's not broke
 
H

heisen

2,626
263
Shawnery,

I use both the waterfall and airstone methods. I followed Current Culture's recommendations for the exact amount of airflow to the system. I think CC uses waterfall as well. The tube that comes back into the control bucket from the chiller has a T fitting on it and as such there are then two waterfalls dropping into the control bucket water. Pay attention also to the size of the water pump, pumping too much or to little can mess with your chiller setup.

One thing I would do different this time is raise the control bucket 6 inches or so. This way you can maintain the correct water level and still have enough headroom to create your waterfall fitting with the T.

I think the airstones are not just about aeration but also about agitation and when the buckets get congested with roots I think this added movement of the water is good.

Lately when I pull the plants up to check the roots they are in a tight bundle shaped just like the square buckets with two nubs where the roots are actually following out the drain holes so there will be congestion.

The water is a very efficient heat exchanging system and when the water goes into the grow it picks up ambient heat very efficiently so I was surprised by this and even when I kept my master res outside the grow in a 50 degree garage during the Winter it still didn't work without a chiller. Before buying a chiller I limped along with throwing frozen milk jugs filled with water in the res 2X or more per day. Works but a pain.

Dee
Why raise the bucket when you can just either use a bigger bucket or put the return line in the lid.thats what I did.my return line dumps into the top.400gph pump.lots of DO but not enough.if my pumps quit my plants will take a dump.ive seen it.
 
H

heisen

2,626
263
Best place to put a return line and simple.90 degree screw in elbow.water hose screws right to it.1 inch spade bit makes the perfect hole for a 3/4 inch pipe.have to squeeze it in there

20180522 232433
 
DGP

DGP

1,214
263
Why raise the bucket when you can just either use a bigger bucket or put the return line in the lid.thats what I did.my return line dumps into the top.400gph pump.lots of DO but not enough.if my pumps quit my plants will take a dump.ive seen it.

Good suggestion, I just know with all my buckets the same I would still like a little more headroom to form a nice water fall. I wouldn't consider going without airstones myself but I don't know if it really matters. CC had done a lot of research so for me it was just a deal where I thought it was best to go the same route.

Dee
 
DGP

DGP

1,214
263
All about insulating the buckets.my chillers only come on about 5 minutes twice an hour 3 at the most,77 degree ambient 67 water.
Once you get enough growth over the buckets also it shades them out.
I wanted to run waterfalls and could easily design a setup but I use 4 gallon buckets for 3 week veg cycles.theres just no way to add waterfalls when the roots take up the entire buckets.
Theres some waterfall threads here where some guys got some good results and were using big totes,having to clear the roots from under the jets etc.
I dont intend personally to fix something that's not broke

Yeah, I need to insulate for sure.

Dee
 
H

heisen

2,626
263
Good suggestion, I just know with all my buckets the same I would still like a little more headroom to form a nice water fall. I wouldn't consider going without airstones myself but I don't know if it really matters. CC had done a lot of research so for me it was just a deal where I thought it was best to go the same route.

Dee
best one i saw was a seperate pump installed in the epi tote and there were seperate lines that went into each tote individually from the tops,So you had the normal recirculating pipes and then there was like a 6500 gallon pump pumping water to water jets into the totes.System looked nice but took up a shit load of floor space.You prob would also need 2 inch pipe moving all that water to make sure you dont get any out od balance buckets over filling.
 
DGP

DGP

1,214
263
best one i saw was a seperate pump installed in the epi tote and there were seperate lines that went into each tote individually from the tops,So you had the normal recirculating pipes and then there was like a 6500 gallon pump pumping water to water jets into the totes.System looked nice but took up a shit load of floor space.You prob would also need 2 inch pipe moving all that water to make sure you dont get any out od balance buckets over filling.
Too complicated for me, my system is working too well. My veg plants are always done early (we have plant size limits as well as count limits). My flower room currently has plants so big I have to bend over the flower spikes. The plants are over 6 feet tall and I have 9 foot ceilings but the indica girls next to these bigger ones weren't getting enough light. With the UC system my water stays cleaner and I never use H202 any longer. Using mycos and other beneficial bacterias now as well with no negative issues and that's hard to do in hydro, generally speaking.

Just love the UC systems, I think they are the best hydro choice right now but CC's prices are crazy high. I would have just happily bought one of theirs but I was totally motivated by the cost to do DIY,

Dee
 
H

heisen

2,626
263
Too complicated for me, my system is working too well. My veg plants are always done early (we have plant size limits as well as count limits). My flower room currently has plants so big I have to bend over the flower spikes. The plants are over 6 feet tall and I have 9 foot ceilings but the indica girls next to these bigger ones weren't getting enough light. With the UC system my water stays cleaner and I never use H202 any longer. Using mycos and other beneficial bacterias now as well with no negative issues and that's hard to do in hydro, generally speaking.

Just love the UC systems, I think they are the best hydro choice right now but CC's prices are crazy high. I would have just happily bought one of theirs but I was totally motivated by the cost to do DIY,

Dee
Yeah if I could give a rat's ass about the power bill I would have DE bulbs on 5 foot centers growing trees.i have to keep my power bill in check so i run scrogs to get the most out of a given footprint.6 foot plants dont do me any good under cobs.maybe some guys do it but i like to count my colas and keep everything big.plus I've had strains that are super lanky and seems you have to support every top from falling over.once I get out to Colorado shit is gonna be crazy
 
S

Shawnery

1,499
163
Picking up Artica 1/3hp chiller for 350 tomorrow, fair price, seems so from research but I really have no clue?
 
H

heisen

2,626
263
Picking up Artica 1/3hp chiller for 350 tomorrow, fair price, seems so from research but I really have no clue?
I got 3 active aquas,the 1/4 hp and they will do 100 gallons easy.never had any issue out of any of them.got em from hydro Ebay store out of Miami for 350 shipped.not aure the exact seller but there good.
 
RooR5mm

RooR5mm

146
43
Use air stones. You didnā€™t say how many modules or are running. If it is 1-4 Iā€™d say go for it. First off the roots are going to require more oxygen then a fish tank. Even a heavily planted one. The modules have covers on them, not an ideal gas exchange hence the reason why CC uses stones. Seems like a lot of work for a less than ideal way to introduce O2 into your system.
 
S

Shawnery

1,499
163
Not to say its easy or the correct choice but from my understanding you get better oxygen enrichment from surface agitation than from air bubbles. I understand that this is what bubbles do but not as well as water falling on the surface. Ofcourse this would be in a perfect system where roots don't get in the way of the agitation component. Air stones are easy and work well in all conditions so I see why they are the more reliable resources of oxygen in a changing system with roots.

I was considering using lower but wider totes for my buckets so there would be more than enough room for streams of water to work for the entire grow. I figure I could always put air stones in the buckets ahead of time and see if there is any noticeable difference but I think I would need a DO meter to really know.
 
RooR5mm

RooR5mm

146
43
The air stones are creating the surface agitation. The waterfall at the epi would be all you really need. It is almost a redundant having both air stones and flow. If the diffusion at the epi is enough no reason for air stones in each module. If you air pump goes down you still have flow. If your water pump goes down you still have surface agitation from air stones.
 
S

Shawnery

1,499
163
This thing was used for saltwater before I got it what should I be doing the cleaning out completely any ideas? I was thinking of running a closed circuit loop with water and bleach at a 1 to 10 ratio. and then after that running hose water through it for 10 minutes
 
RooR5mm

RooR5mm

146
43
Vinegar or citric acid are typically used to clean saltwater equipment.
 
stutter

stutter

325
93
it really isnt that hard to get enough D/O i never used airstones in my undercurrent systems, i had a constant top feed for each bucket and a strong undercurrent, the res had a pond fountain inside for aeration.

you will need a chiller though. not worth even messing with undercurrent without a chiller in my opinion but i am from australia as well so gets kind of hot
 

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