Plant Weakening Using Clones Of Clones… Of Clones

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ziplock

ziplock

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@ziplock
no...no problem......just the basic bare minumum for vegging once the clone establishes itself.....
Def would love for you to bring back that girl to full vigor so you can have many more harvests with her....and maybe pass her along to others as well....good luck and happy growing

Wisher
Yeah, I need to make an effort to get some cuttings out there. I t would be comforting to know that someone else had it growing, in case I have a disaster.
 
Savage Henry

Savage Henry

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this topic has been studied extensively.....by many top notch growers in this industry .....all of them have come to one conclusion....there is NO SUCH THING AS GENETIC DRIFT.....PERIOD......
when taking cuttings you should always take from the top where the largest concentration of growth hormones are...and always take from the same average hight off the mother......if you were to take 2 clones...one from the inner bottom and the other from the top.....the top cutting would be extremely more vigorous in growth...root much faster and be much hardier.....think of it this way.....and this is a very rough comparison......say the plant is you...and you are 40 years old.....and each 4-6 node cutting is an exact replica of you....if you were to take a cutting from the top it would be 40 just like you....if you were to take a cutting from the bottom it is exactly like you except it is you at age 15......exactly you...just much younger...HORMONALLY.....where we start to see expression and vigor drift is when the plant is infected with a systemic virus... the mother may look normal but you take a piece of her and transition her into a differ light pattern and she will show what is wrong with her.....which a lot of times would be called dudding......you can grow your plant out of dudding by using the ingredients stated in previous posts above....once your cleaned clone starts to show it has grown out of the infection...you can then start to clone again and she become the new mom...."genetic drift" can only occur if you are actually genetically manipulating its DNA profile..which would take scientific labs with DNA stranding etc....vigor and growth have nothing to do with DNA/genetics per say when it comes to loosing vigor or the change in characteristics in growth pattern......it is simply showing you there is something wrong...with it...or the environment ......this is all simple science....laws of life....if you started to gain calcium deposit in your joints you wouldn't say your genes changed.....you would say you have developed arthritis ......the shitty expressions and loss of vigor are all built into the genes....it is simply an expression of what is happening to the plant...if there was a such thing as genetic drift...we would be able to manipulate it in a positive manner to create whole new strains without having to cross one with the other...simply because cannabis is so diluted with thousands of years of genetic pooling and cross breeding that we would be able to virtually recess one trait and bring out another just through growth manipulation... which is not the same as phenotypic expression....

Well said, and thank you.
 
shemshemet

shemshemet

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@ziplock
shemshemets's logic is flawed....yes you are better off taking from one mother....but.....there is no such thing as genetic mutation....in this senerio.....genetic drift or mutation happens when parent passes alleles recessive know as hitch hiker alleles that can present themselves at any time for any reason....it is not a mutation or genetically veering from .....he is right it isnt good practice to keep cloning over and over from the next host only high radiation and a few other highly improbable things can mutate dna/genetics
I would start a new clone....and let her grow for a while....

No....mutation can be random. Radiation / chemical exposure can speed things up forsure. Rarely plant breeders will use that technique (dangerous crapshoot if you ask me).

What I said is technically true, yet not practical at all.

What I said means that it is possible, but not likely. How likely is it that a branch of a plant will mutate with a specific mutation of less vigor, slim to none. But a mutation is a mutation and that could be anything. It could hinder photosynthesis, stomatal production, trichome production, terpene production....literally anything.

If two people have a clone from the same cloning lineage, IT IS POSSIBLE for those two plants to express differently in the same environment.

I do not believe that the environment influences these changes. I do not believe in the practicality of all of it, that this happens often. It may not be called genetic drift, it may just be mutation. But my logic is not flawed. If you clone a mutated branch you get a mutated plant.



Hope that is an easier to understand example. Now substitute variegation for [ ].
 
Wisher619

Wisher619

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what you are talking about is recessive alleles that one or both parents may have passed down to the child in which it may present itself at any time.....lucky for us we are dealing with plants which acts more like cancer....in which you can cut that piece out and keep going.....if it is a positive...you can actually use that piece to breed with xing with another plant presenting the same characteristics
 
Wisher619

Wisher619

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http://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/advanced/topics/PopGenetics/Pages/geneticdrift.aspx
this link explains in great detail
underlying factor....."Plant Pathogen" aka systemic virus (Mosaic Virus)
which can be cleansed....or "breed out" so to speak.......by taking a cutting from the top and sterilizing ....effectively removing the pathogen that of which is disrupting the allele frequency

Leaf veragations I would not use as an example as it is in human terms....a lack of skin pigment
considered a mutation just as a human can gain and loose freckles.....

If anyone reads the posted article and needs further explanation on allele frequency change I would be more then happy to explain as well on how that frequency can be brought back to baseline

Wisher
 
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Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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yes Sea...I would like to add to that....when taking clones....once rooted.....let it veg for at least 2 weeks under 18/6....if it is still doing it then let it go another 2...if is still doing this then look to virus IMO
My experience with plants that are going back into veg from flowering is that the whole thing, to get back to normal, takes about 6 weeks, so I give them at least that much time. :)
The reason we call them cones is because it is the exact same DNA from the plant. Not kinda close to it, it is the same exact thing as when you took said cutting.if what you said were true we should call all cuts similar but different copies not clones. And that's what they are exact copies. Everything else is grower/environment issues.
NOW we're getting into phenotypic expression, and the more science is learning about epigenetics the more we're learning how and why certain genes can be turned off and on, as well as what may mitigate or enhance expression of certain traits.
I always veg for 6-8 weeks at 18/6 before flipping. Any problem there?
If they're still growing triple-lobed leaves, I personally wouldn't do it, I'd wait for normal growth. Hormones can really fuck your shit up! (So says the post-menopausal woman who knows.)
Radiation / chemical exposure can speed things up forsure. Rarely plant breeders will use that technique (dangerous crapshoot if you ask me).
Mm... I'm pretty sure mutagenisis by chemical means is used fairly often.
 
shemshemet

shemshemet

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@Wisher619

I know about tobacco mosaic virus and that is not what I am saying. You are correct, viral infection can be cured if you have a tissue culture lab. You bring high enough heat that the virus won't affect tip and you tissue culture out the very tip cells sans virus.

Variegation is a great example for what I am saying. A commonly known mutation is leaf variegation, and if you clone a plant where it has mutated (variegated) then you're new plant will be completely variegated. (although sometimes these plants switch back).

And I agree with Sea that we are learning more about epigenetics. I believe I was taught this in the topic of epigenetics..I am not quoting stoner science.
 
Wisher619

Wisher619

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yes but Variegation is not a good example of why a plant would dud or loose vigor...in the least
I was also only MV a an example of what would cause "Genetic Drift" if you did read the link I posted it would explain it in great detail
ask any breeder about certain cuttings that sometimes just turn to shit......what do they do to bring it back.....you dont just throw it out....especially with elite cuts.....
what about those elite cuts...how are they circulating without "drift"
 
We Solidarity

We Solidarity

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There is no genetic drift in cannabis...I've seen cuts that were 6 or 7 years old when I got them continue to thrive til this day, if kept healthy and not abused they plant will retain vigor forever, any genetics that fall out or fail in any way succumbed to viral infections or have been mistreated and faltered.

The oldest verified cuts in my circle are, ironically, some of the most vigorous growers, however they are also extremely susceptible to problems if they are abused.
 
ziplock

ziplock

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OK, I'm getting dizzy now. If I get you right, I take my epigenically-challenged mutations and expose them to my local x-ray source, then plant them in a little DNA boat and let them drift until they find the golden shore. Is that about it?
 
ziplock

ziplock

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f they're still growing triple-lobed leaves, I personally wouldn't do it, I'd wait for normal growth. Hormones can really fuck your shit up! (So says the post-menopausal woman who knows.)
Now THAT's the voice of experience talking. In my case, I've had enough frustration trying to nurse cuts from blooming plants. I do it only in a "no other option" situation, ex: Blue Orca (the One) from a friend's grow: week 5 of bloom, bottom branches, 1/2 hr from home, I got one to live. It was worth it, tho. Stickiest plant I ever grew. Just harvested some seriously glittery stuff, so will have to wait for cure for overall quality to be seen. And, yes, I've got a vigorous cutting in waiting for the "big" (4x5) room.
 
ziplock

ziplock

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I would let it grow out and take a cut from the top......make sure it looks as healthy as possible......soak it in 10% bleach solution for 15 minutes.....then rinse well in clean fresh water.....root......isolate that clone once rooted and grow ....if it was a virus then this cutting should pull through...if not and it is still running a reduction in vigor....I would look to enviroment for solutions
Please, a little clarification: when you said 10% bleach solution, did you mean 1 part household bleach to 10 parts water, or a 10% solution of sodium hypochlorite? I suspect the former. I'll have some clonable stock shortly to try this on.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

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I posted a long time ago here about DNA mutation\ environmental imprint and will repost the Scientific study as soon as I find it.
I doubt anyone in the scientific community besides militarry, govt appications for cannabis/hemp have the money to sufficiently do dna testing on cannabis. If I recall dna drift is species specific as the study was in galopgose island if I recall. So we have here a plant than will hermie as selfe preservation but not adapt over long periods of time to environmental change?



3000 years ago gobi desert high grade cannabis, lowest place on earth next to dead sea, extremely arid. The plants adapt to changing climates and those seeds become imprinted imho

As for cloning I agree ive had no mothers for years just cloning from veg and it was fine
 
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