PhDown Severely/abnormally drops the PH on DWC solution

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Cashmeh

Cashmeh

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Forget everything you think you know about these nutrients… its does not apply to these.
He has to do exacty as the bottles say right? For most nutrients we only have to add half the suppliers reccomened dose. For AN we have to call their customer service for troubleshooting. We are not much help when it comes to AN are we? Now something like trio, we can add whatever we want and however we want as long as its close. Our talents allow us to adjust perimiters for all nutrient lines but AN? Does that sound like a fair summery? Now if it was environmental controls, or root issues, or system design sure, but the ratios can only be set by AN, along with their res changes? So i guess its like since he has this stuff, he should use it. But if he didnt have this stuff, you wouldnt recommend it or would you? Im sure you would suggest trio as I would.
 
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FlyingToast

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Forget everything you think you know about these nutrients… its does not apply to these.
Can you provide any link/explanation that explains how they work? i've been researching Advanced nutrients for quite a long time since ive been using them for years and didn't stumble upon anything that says that they are different
 
Ponky

Ponky

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If you use PH perfect you have to use it full strength. Or it won't be perfect. And it last 5 days Max. Then boing. The powder food is replaced with new water before the PH changes at all in 2 or 3 days. Both gave me about a 6.0 P.h. no issues with hydrogen peroxide.
 
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FlyingToast

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If you use PH perfect you have to use it full strength. Or it won't be perfect. And it last 5 days Max. Then boing. The powder food is replaced with new water before the PH changes at all in 2 or 3 days. Both gave me about a 6.0 P.h. no issues with hydrogen peroxide.
oh that clarifies it a bit (i think)
i understand that the chemistry of those is kinda achieved in balance only when the dosages are right on.
i wonder why no guide i've ever read refered to that really important fact
i appreciate the time y'all took to answer to me, i hope i can be of help in the future
 
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FlyingToast

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So, to get this straight, i use Advanced nutrients exactly what the chart says, from start to finish , without worrying about PH/ppm-ec and given that all else conditions are good im gonna be all right?
That sounds too good to be true :P if you guys confirm it i will go ahead and do that
(except of course changing the water every week and monitoring the ph and EC just to recieve information about plant uptake and when ph stops being perfect)
 
Ponky

Ponky

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263
So, to get this straight, i use Advanced nutrients exactly what the chart says, from start to finish , without worrying about PH/ppm-ec and given that all else conditions are good im gonna be all right?
That sounds too good to be true :P if you guys confirm it i will go ahead and do that
I did. With the PH perfect. Fresh bottles. It worked. Was expensive though.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

26,480
638
So, to get this straight, i use Advanced nutrients exactly what the chart says, from start to finish , without worrying about PH/ppm-ec and given that all else conditions are good im gonna be all right?
That sounds too good to be true :P if you guys confirm it i will go ahead and do that
(except of course changing the water every week and monitoring the ph and EC just to recieve information about plant uptake and when ph stops being perfect)
Yep @Ponky is bang on
 
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FlyingToast

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Guys you are such a life saver, thank you so so so much, i will go ahead and do that, the amount of headaches you just saved me is absolutely gargantuan, thank you once again
 
SweetLeafGrow

SweetLeafGrow

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Sorry I am kinda late chiming in on your thread @FlyingToast. Not sure if you read the thread that Moe mentioned previously, but that was me struggling using AN nutrients, if you get a chance it might be worth a read that could give you a heads up on anything you might face with your grow.

It's been a while, but as I remember it, I used the AN as directed and my ppms were right where I wanted them to be. I might have missed it but are you using RO water? You generally want your starting ppm (ec) as low as you can get it before adding anything. That could explain why your EC is so high at the start. Sorry if I missed your water source and that associated data.

As far as PH, AN nutrients are designed to expand the plant's usable range of PH from 4.0 to 8.0 if I remember right with no lockouts. This will go against everything you learn about hydro. It did work for a while for me but I had problems that were too much and ended up switching mid flower to GH and thanks to Moe and Aman was able to manage a pretty decent harvest. If you stick with AN, get familiar with their 24/7 helpline and use that for help beyond what you might get here. For me, in the end, the AN guy wanted to blame my meter which was showing major dives in the ph that was only getting worse. At the end, I was changing the res every day because of runaway downward ph.

When using AN, PH your water first and then add nutrients. DO NOT adjust ph after adding nutrients. I'd have to look at my grow journal to remember everything 100% (it's been a while) but I do know you cannot add any ph adjusters after you have mixed nutrients in the res. That was my problem, the ph would dive on me and there was nothing I could do about it but watch it and then change the res, at the end it was every day because I would wake up and the ph had dropped to 3.0 overnight.

You can ignore your ph with AN as long as it's between that range of ph 4-8 (double check with AN on that to be 100%). However, if things get out of that range, you cannot ignore it IMO. I do believe had I ignored the <4 PH and followed the AN guys advice, I would have lost the plant.

Best of luck and hope this helps.
 
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FlyingToast

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Sorry I am kinda late chiming in on your thread @FlyingToast. Not sure if you read the thread that Moe mentioned previously, but that was me struggling using AN nutrients, if you get a chance it might be worth a read that could give you a heads up on anything you might face with your grow.

It's been a while, but as I remember it, I used the AN as directed and my ppms were right where I wanted them to be. I might have missed it but are you using RO water? You generally want your starting ppm (ec) as low as you can get it before adding anything. That could explain why your EC is so high at the start. Sorry if I missed your water source and that associated data.

As far as PH, AN nutrients are designed to expand the plant's usable range of PH from 4.0 to 8.0 if I remember right with no lockouts. This will go against everything you learn about hydro. It did work for a while for me but I had problems that were too much and ended up switching mid flower to GH and thanks to Moe and Aman was able to manage a pretty decent harvest. If you stick with AN, get familiar with their 24/7 helpline and use that for help beyond what you might get here. For me, in the end, the AN guy wanted to blame my meter which was showing major dives in the ph that was only getting worse. At the end, I was changing the res every day because of runaway downward ph.

When using AN, PH your water first and then add nutrients. DO NOT adjust ph after adding nutrients. I'd have to look at my grow journal to remember everything 100% (it's been a while) but I do know you cannot add any ph adjusters after you have mixed nutrients in the res. That was my problem, the ph would dive on me and there was nothing I could do about it but watch it and then change the res, at the end it was every day because I would wake up and the ph had dropped to 3.0 overnight.

You can ignore your ph with AN as long as it's between that range of ph 4-8 (double check with AN on that to be 100%). However, if things get out of that range, you cannot ignore it IMO. I do believe had I ignored the <4 PH and followed the AN guys advice, I would have lost the plant.

Best of luck and hope this helps.
thank you very much for taking the time to write to me, what you say sounds very useful, and i did read your thread, and i will again.

i wrote that i dont use RO water and that my tap water ph is 0.3 EC (i don't know about ppm i don't have a ppm meter only EC)

The other guys on this thread made AN ph perfect nutrients sound like if i follow the schedule i will have no issue whatsoever, and a range of 4 - 8 ph is very very nice to have, leaves a lot of room for swings, when you had those PH fluctuations, how was your environment ? did you ever find out why your ph dropped to 3 overnight?

also if those nutrients are dialed ppm wise and ph wise why would i need to get familiar with the AN help line? are that many issues caused by those nutes?
i can follow the AN schedule to a t,and my overall conditions are fully controllable and almost perfect (very good led light,temps,rh,co2,air,watertemps,sterilization etc)

as i said before, i am looking for an easily repeatable headache free strategy to go with every time, im trying to find an easy working recipe that over time and with minor adjustments will bring me some consistent A grade flower

my second option would be to switch to good old trusty general hydroponics nutrients, do you think i can succeed with AN or should i switch to GH from now to get acclimated to those? im still very early so i'd like to stick with something and make it work...what's your opinion?
 
SweetLeafGrow

SweetLeafGrow

1,467
263
You are welcome bro, anything I can do.

i wrote that i dont use RO water and that my tap water ph is 0.3 EC (i don't know about ppm i don't have a ppm meter only EC)
OK, so most meters will do both ec and ppm, it's just a different way of expressing the same thing. I normally use ppms cause it's easier for me to see small changes. 0.3 ec translates into 150 ppm. RO water will come in much closer to zero as a starting point. Anything in your water will count against your nutrient numbers and compete for uptake to the plant if that makes sense. You want to start as close to zero as possible, nutrient numbers count over and above your starting ppm (not included).

The other guys on this thread made AN ph perfect nutrients sound like if i follow the schedule i will have no issue whatsoever, and a range of 4 - 8 ph is very very nice to have, leaves a lot of room for swings, when you had those PH fluctuations, how was your environment ? did you ever find out why your ph dropped to 3 overnight?
I can't speak for others, I do acknowledge that some can have success with AN, just not me. My environment was dialed in fairly well during that grow. No, I did not find out why the ph dove so hard and the AN helpline guy wanted to say I had root rot even though I was running a chiller at 68F or that my meter was not working properly.

also if those nutrients are dialed ppm wise and ph wise why would i need to get familiar with the AN help line? are that many issues caused by those nutes?
i can follow the AN schedule to a t,and my overall conditions are fully controllable and almost perfect (very good led light,temps,rh,co2,air,watertemps,sterilization etc)
I only suggested this because your options here at the Farm are limited regarding folks that have good knowledge of AN products. I don't have a lot of faith in the help line but it's at least something for you to go on and straight from the manufacturer.

as i said before, i am looking for an easily repeatable headache free strategy to go with every time, im trying to find an easy working recipe that over time and with minor adjustments will bring me some consistent A grade flower

my second option would be to switch to good old trusty general hydroponics nutrients, do you think i can succeed with AN or should i switch to GH from now to get acclimated to those? im still very early so i'd like to stick with something and make it work...what's your opinion?
If you want a headache free strategy, go with the GH trio, learn how to use that, and then if you are so inclined, try the various additives once you are familiar with the product.....walk before you run so to speak. Moe and Aman really held my hand to salvage that first grow, but after lessons learned, I started my 2nd grow. From what I learned on the first one, so far this second attempt is going very well and I am surprised at how EASY it really can be. You can try to push through using the AN if that is your choice, you've spent a bunch of $ on it, I get it. But if you want to succeed immediately, go with the GH trio. That is my opinion FWIW.

Here is a link to my second grow using what I learned from Moe, Aman, and other RDWC guys here at the Farm.


Also, new RDWC grow just getting started.

 
Habosabin

Habosabin

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263
I guess when all else fails a ph controller will give confidence. That's my next purchase when I want to eliminate daily checking.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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313
I guess when all else fails a ph controller will give confidence. That's my next purchase when I want to eliminate daily checking.
I can help you with that.

Great advice @SweetLeafGrow. Appreciate you helping the new guys. As you say, I am not and information source on AN, I can only regurgitate what has been told to me here. If you want help with issues running those nutes I don't even know who to send you to. All the advice I have ever seen on this forum about AN is basically just follow the recipe and don't measure anything. Trust them. That's fine until you have an issue, at which point it helps to have a little control and measurable feedback. Reliable PH data in a hydro system is like your pulse - just basic basic health data. To ignore it to me seems sacrilegious.

I wonder if any hydro power growers on the forum still run AN? @tobh you still doing AN? Seems like most folks that get serious about this hobby run dry nutes like Jack's. It's also easy to use, just different. You need slightly different tools to go with dry nutes over bottles.

I don't really know about your seedling EC question (obviously lol) but I agree with your gut that is a bit much for a young plant. That would in fact bother me too. But the advise is, "follow the instructions and trust it." You gotta decide if you want to follow that advise until you run out of AN, have a problem and switch, fall in love with AN and become the forum guru, or just switch now to get the learning curve out of the way. If you decide to switch, GH 3 part is reliable, easy, but a little expensive because you are buying water. I still recommend it for your first hydro grow and then you decide when you want to switch to dry if ever. I used it for years because it was just so easy.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
I did. With the PH perfect. Fresh bottles. It worked. Was expensive though.
You still using it? With the size of your grows seems like no way.

When you were using it did you feel like the results were on par with your typical hydro grows?
 
tobh

tobh

Supporter
4,194
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I can help you with that.

Great advice @SweetLeafGrow. Appreciate you helping the new guys. As you say, I am not and information source on AN, I can only regurgitate what has been told to me here. If you want help with issues running those nutes I don't even know who to send you to. All the advice I have ever seen on this forum about AN is basically just follow the recipe and don't measure anything. Trust them. That's fine until you have an issue, at which point it helps to have a little control and measurable feedback. Reliable PH data in a hydro system is like your pulse - just basic basic health data. To ignore it to me seems sacrilegious.

I wonder if any hydro power growers on the forum still run AN? @tobh you still doing AN? Seems like most folks that get serious about this hobby run dry nutes like Jack's. It's also easy to use, just different. You need slightly different tools to go with dry nutes over bottles.

I don't really know about your seedling EC question (obviously lol) but I agree with your gut that is a bit much for a young plant. That would in fact bother me too. But the advise is, "follow the instructions and trust it." You gotta decide if you want to follow that advise until you run out of AN, have a problem and switch, fall in love with AN and become the forum guru, or just switch now to get the learning curve out of the way. If you decide to switch, GH 3 part is reliable, easy, but a little expensive because you are buying water. I still recommend it for your first hydro grow and then you decide when you want to switch to dry if ever. I used it for years because it was just so easy.
I've never used AN, but I use Front Row Ag salts. Dry nutes are by far the easiest and most economical way to run hydro imo. You can make your own stock concentrates that makes it a no brainer in case you need to have a baby sitter handle your stuff for whatever reason too. For instance, my stock concentrate can be applied at 20ml/gal for each part A and part B and I don't need to even check with an EC meter (still do, but I know I'll end up with a solution of 1.3 regardless at this ratio). Much easier than weighing out the salts each res, and explaining to a baby sitter all the equipment and steps for weighing vs "take n ml part a, add it, take n ml part b, add it" is a no-brainer for me personally.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
I've never used AN, but I use Front Row Ag salts. Dry nutes are by far the easiest and most economical way to run hydro imo. You can make your own stock concentrates that makes it a no brainer in case you need to have a baby sitter handle your stuff for whatever reason too. For instance, my stock concentrate can be applied at 20ml/gal for each part A and part B and I don't need to even check with an EC meter (still do, but I know I'll end up with a solution of 1.3 regardless at this ratio). Much easier than weighing out the salts each res, and explaining to a baby sitter all the equipment and steps for weighing vs "take n ml part a, add it, take n ml part b, add it" is a no-brainer for me personally.
😂

I read SOCK concentrates instead of stock and then a babysitter watching your stuff and I got brain stuck envisioning you stuffing socks with dry nutes and your babysitter could I guess drop a sock in the res every week like a bath bomb or some shit - man my mind went way down a weird hole on that.

The way I see it is GH has made the sock concentrates for you and made the math easy and repeatable. If you don't mind a few extra steps making the concentrate liquid form, its cheaper and more customizable. When someone is in trouble, grabbing bottles of known qty off the shelf is the way to go to minimize risk. If you plan it out, not in a hurry like OP is now, dry would be the way to go IMO.
 
Moshmen

Moshmen

8,218
313
😂

I read SOCK concentrates instead of stock and then a babysitter watching your stuff and I got brain stuck envisioning you stuffing socks with dry nutes and your babysitter could I guess drop a sock in the res every week like a bath bomb or some shit - man my mind went way down a weird hole on that.

The way I see it is GH has made the sock concentrates for you and made the math easy and repeatable. If you don't mind a few extra steps making the concentrate liquid form, its cheaper and more customizable. When someone is in trouble, grabbing bottles of known qty off the shelf is the way to go to minimize risk. If you plan it out, not in a hurry like OP is now, dry would be the way to go IMO.
Dry was 1/2 price for me but bottles are just so easy
 
F

FlyingToast

70
33
You are welcome bro, anything I can do.


OK, so most meters will do both ec and ppm, it's just a different way of expressing the same thing. I normally use ppms cause it's easier for me to see small changes. 0.3 ec translates into 150 ppm. RO water will come in much closer to zero as a starting point. Anything in your water will count against your nutrient numbers and compete for uptake to the plant if that makes sense. You want to start as close to zero as possible, nutrient numbers count over and above your starting ppm (not included).
Yeah i am fully aware, i can't have an ro system so i do what i can do with 0.3 ec 7.8ph tap water...

I can't speak for others, I do acknowledge that some can have success with AN, just not me. My environment was dialed in fairly well during that grow. No, I did not find out why the ph dove so hard and the AN helpline guy wanted to say I had root rot even though I was running a chiller at 68F or that my meter was not working properly.


I only suggested this because your options here at the Farm are limited regarding folks that have good knowledge of AN products. I don't have a lot of faith in the help line but it's at least something for you to go on and straight from the manufacturer.


If you want a headache free strategy, go with the GH trio, learn how to use that, and then if you are so inclined, try the various additives once you are familiar with the product.....walk before you run so to speak. Moe and Aman really held my hand to salvage that first grow, but after lessons learned, I started my 2nd grow. From what I learned on the first one, so far this second attempt is going very well and I am surprised at how EASY it really can be. You can try to push through using the AN if that is your choice, you've spent a bunch of $ on it, I get it. But if you want to succeed immediately, go with the GH trio. That is my opinion FWIW.
i hear you, although its so so tempting to give in to the very easy GH schedule, but if i can get AN to work on point it would be a m a z i n g...if the ppm is right for the plants (which are fastbuds gorilla strawberry) and the ph is automatically regulated thats absolutely a win and i'd love to not worry about the nutrient uptake, the ph and the ppm altogether, it will give me room to have a couple runs problem free, get acclimated to dwc and then decide if i want to switch strategies or whatever... if AN gives me problems, i'll accept the cost of a mediocre/bad harvest and i will take the lesson and move on with GH, and probably stick there... for now i mixed my bucket with 1/8th strength of the AN feed chart, and the ph for 2 days straight is a stable 6. so i'm gonna let the first week roll like that, see what happens, and i if it gives me problems i will either mix a new one because of the problems or mix a new one with full nute strength (or probably ease the plants on higher ppm with like half strength for the 2nd week, and full strength for 3rd week etc...) i have the full 16some bottles of the an line and it would be a waste, they are also full themselves...i guess if i have to recieve a lesson the hard way let it be in the next 2 weeks so i don't waste a lot of time... but yeah since i have a solid environment that is probably the last (or one of the last) things to dial in and then i will be ok

now as far as money or dry ferts etc, i know nothing about how dry ferts work, and money is no issue because i grow in a very small scale (1 plant or 2 maximum) so i dont even go through nutes that fast, i guess i will walk the path that i'm on and i will find something that works and stick to it.
Here is a link to my second grow using what I learned from Moe, Aman, and other RDWC guys here at the Farm.


Also, new RDWC grow just getting started.

i will be watching all these, thanks dude you are an absolute goldmine i can't thank you enough , i wish i make the right decisions cause all the different opinions in here are hard to navigate and decide what's valuable and what's not, i hope for the best and thank you for contributing
 
Cashmeh

Cashmeh

2,007
263
Dry was 1/2 price for me but bottles are just so easy
My plants drink about 25 gallon a week, between the 4 systems. I dont even do res changes. I honestly wouldnt be able to afford res changes if running bottles. Id say im spending about 100 bucks every 2 months on bottle nutrients. I want to go to dry, but im lazy. . so atm, ill continue to keep my res changes at 2 months. Again, i dont see how people can afford to pump it out every week, especially if running bottles.
 
Ponky

Ponky

3,941
263
You still using it? With the size of your grows seems like no way.

When you were using it did you feel like the results were on par with your typical hydro grows?
Honestly I felt silly after I switched to powder food. I was spending way too much on the liquid stuff. I was buying hundreds of dollars worth of food. Compared to just a few cents a spoonful on the powder. Honestly for me less has been more. All the different recipes I've tried. I've seldom noticed a difference. I think it's just colorful labels and the promises on the supplement bottles. Sticking to doing it simple is the best way for me. Time spent is minimal. Yield is up.
If iwas going to do a big one i would do a commercial size sack of grow and one of bloom . Have pre measured scoops for blue barrels. And circulating pumps. I'd fill and mix. Aerate for a couple hours. And right to the plants in pro mix. Flag and spray once a week. Train.
(It's going back up around here)...
 

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