uc vs aeroponics

[Bobby Smith]

I'd love to take some time off, but all the little shit that should take five minutes and instead takes a few hours has been killing me - still not totally setup with my new room, and the clones are ready to go in.

As far as the drip loop, the timer is outside of the box - I think you're talking about the black cord (in the little "V" cutout), which is the cord feeding the pressure switch.

And even without a chiller my rez temps are gonna be somewhere in the 65-70F range, give or take (there's a 50' wort chiller in there which has ~50F tap water flow through it before going to my watercooled CO2 generator).

Thanks for the other tips; there's already fifty things I'd change about it, and I haven't even run the sucker yet (need to finish wiring up these solenoids, which has been a nightmare and a half).

Appreciate the well wishes :)

EDIT: while I'm here, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the necessity of a chiller with this setup - JG, same with you, if you'd care to share.

What good would a chiller do?

 

[john guest]

Hi Bob
I havent had any tank condensation but lining the box with insulation will fix that if it comes up. Drip loops on the electrical cables are a good idea, it only takes a drop of moisture in the wrong place to trip an rcd. If you can keep the air temperature in the chamber at 65-70f you should be alright, i`m not sure a chiller will help as a teaspoon of water doesn`t give you much to work with. You can`t compensate with colder water as the roots won`t thank you for hitting them with 45-50f mist :)
Wiring solenoids up is pretty easy, plumbing the buggers in is where it gets interesting.

 

[Bobby Smith]

The wiring was easy enough once I stopped messing around with raw wire and went and bought four extension cords that I chopped the female end off of; wasted a day trying to do something stupid with wiring.

Also have the system up and running, after WRESTLING with that expansion tank four different times trying to get a tight enough seal that it wouldn't drip water............everything seems to work as it should, but holy wowsers is that pump loud in that echo box I bought for it............might throw some insulation on the interior to quiet it down a little bit.

Seems to run for about 20 seconds every 30-40 minutes (2 seconds on, 5 minutes off), pressure switch works really well, takes it right to 125 and cuts out.

Definitely some random little shit to do, but on the way to getting this rocking and rolling - almost threw in the towel earlier today, but I've since regained my composure.

 

[john guest]

Hi Bob
Congrats on getting it up and running.
I use PTFE tape to seal pipe threads and JG fittings for everything else.
You always get a few problems the first time you put a system together, you`ll find the second time is a breeze :) Keep the towel will be handy for mopping up water instead of throwing :)
I steered clear of mains powered pumps due to the fact they are noisey and ridiculously expensive over here. I have a couple of 24v aquatecs (cdp-6800 and cdp-8800) sitting idle now but neither makes any noise. The test pump is completely silent apart from an occasional creak from the handle.
Don`t forget to collect and measure all the liquid from one nozzle during your 2 second misting and compare it to the nozzle specification. The test will give you the true nozzle output for your setup and makes calculations more accurate. The measurement serve as a useful yardstick so if you retest in a month and its radically different you`ll know something has changed.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Lol, definitely kept a towel on hand during the testing out phase, and it certainly did come in handy :)

As loud as the pump is, was smoking a cig last night directly in front of my garage door (pump is three feet on the other side of it), and it turns out that my door/room is so well insulated that it was barely audible to me, who was listening for it...........so I'm not too worried about it, but quieting it down a little would be nice.

And I'll try to get to that test today, but I think my only working syringe is floating in my gallon of 35% H2O2, so even with gloves I'm hesitant to pull it out.

Will make a short video soon and post it here so you can look and see if you see any obvious problems with it - thanks again for all your help :)

 

[john guest]

Looking forward to seeing the video :) I`m hoping my 1/4" bsp-1/4" JG pushfit adapters arrive today so i can do some testing of my own.

The test method i use is to video a timed misting pulse from beginning to end and collect every drop of water from the nozzle. Open the video in some basic editting software to check what the real misting duration is from the footage..timers are seldom 100% accurate.
When you have the duration and liquid measurement its easy figure out the actual nozzle flow rate for your unique hardware/plumbing layout. No two setups are identical.

Edit, make sure your accumulator is at full pressure for the test, that`ll give you the highest flow figure.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Looking forward to seeing the video :) I`m hoping my 1/4" bsp-1/4" JG pushfit adapters arrive today so i can do some testing of my own.

The test method i use is to video a timed misting pulse from beginning to end and collect every drop of water from the nozzle. Open the video in some basic editting software to check what the real misting duration is from the footage..timers are seldom 100% accurate.
When you have the duration and liquid measurement its easy figure out the actual nozzle flow rate for your unique hardware/plumbing layout. No two setups are identical.

Edit, make sure your accumulator is at full pressure for the test, that`ll give you the highest flow figure.

Lol on that test, I'm just gonna guesstimate - I'm halfway retarded, that's much too complex for me :)

Will get that video up in the next couple of days and throw a link up to it.

 

[john guest]

If you post the video as an .avi, i`ll figure the misting duration then you only need to catch and measure the water :)
I`ve had to come up with a new way to catch the mist from mine as it wont fit in a syringe, a 3 litre coke bottle (crushed flat) and a length of hose seems to do the trick lol.
The adapters didnt arrive so the testing is scuppered until monday.

 

[Bobby Smith]

John, I'm actually looking for misters that don't crack at less than either 80 or 100PSI - would something like that work for me? As I run from 100-125PSI, that should be perfect, no? Since I have so much tubing after each solenoid, looking for ways to reduce the pressure drop after my solenoids...........and I'll get that movie up sooner rather than later.

 

[john guest]

They will help a lot but nothing beats a solenoid right behind the nozzle. Its more expensive but much easier than dealing with mist over run, maze-like plumbing and pressure drop. If you add up the cost of the JG fiittings etc, half a dozen cheapish solenoids probably wouldnt cost much more.
If you can reduce the number of nozzles to a very small number and still get complete coverage, individual solenoids are the best way to go.

My new nozzles use dedicated 12vdc solenoids, the pic shows a 2 second burst with perhaps 1.6ml of water.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Lol, that's just silly looking, John :)

Air atomized action going on there?

Was contemplating buying another 10-15 solenoids, but then nixed that idea........probably won't stay with this setup for much more than 2-4 runs, so it doesn't seem to be worthwhile at the moment, and I won't need the extra solenoids for my new setup(s) (plus I'm just about over messing around with this setup for the time being).

One easy change I'm gonna do is to put an elbow before the lower solenoid on each column, so that the mist shoots down the tube and dissipates, as opposed to shooting directly on one plant and coagulating, possibly starvng the bottom two plants.

Making that change tomorrow, assuming I can source 15 1/4" elbows tomorrow.

 

[john guest]

You should be good to go. I`d run with what you have and then decide if/where to invest more $$. The HP aero "spares box" tend to fill rapidly with hardware you think you need and then never use :)
I decided to try air atomising because its new territory and it`ll never become mainstream due to the cost ;) The nozzle assembly is pretty chunky but should manage a 50-100gal chamber on its own.

 

[Bobby Smith]

John, a couple of questions - is there both a nute accumulator and seperate compressed air accumulator in that setup, and does each solenoid control the feed from each in your nozzle assembly?

And a more informative/practical question - what size plants do you usually grow, and what size containers do you usually use? I wanted to shoot for a 1 pound plant in my upcoming setup, but have no idea what type of container that would require........and how do you keep the roots off of the bottom of the container?

 

[john guest]

Thats right, both air and water are controlled by the solenoids. If you think hp aero is complex you should try this route ;)
The biggest problem is noise, a silent compressor costs silly money and you can`t even store air to run for 24hrs as it takes too much space, a lot more than an accumulator :)
2 plants in a 150L chamber is my limit and its nowhere near a pound. I think you`ll need a fairly long veg and a pretty large tote for that. I`ve never kept the roots off the floor but its worth doing if you can get silkscreen cheap enough.

 

[squarepusher]

any instructions or more info about the atomising setup?

I don't know how great aero is, it gives good root systems, but the roots are fluffy and airy, so in order to match the root system of a DWC, like say an undercurrent, you would need maybe double the chamber size (DWC fits enough roots in 8 gallon that it would take 20 gallon of aeroponic to fit). Also, as the root system becomes bigger, it gets harder to pump nutrients to the middle of the roots, since the outer roots block the air misting somewhat. So, unless you are only growing small plants, I think DWC might have an advantage..

just some thoughts I came up with right now

 

[Bobby Smith]

any instructions or more info about the atomising setup?

Lots of info I found with a quick Google search; basically air comes in one end and nutes come in the other, and the pressure from the air atomizes the nutes (when using a proper nozzle, obviously).

I don't know how great aero is, it gives good root systems, but the roots are fluffy and airy

Those "fluffy and airy" roots are exponentially more efficient at utilizing nutes and water, which accounts for the rapid growth and low use of both water and nutes. In no other "high performance" system can you do a drain to waste, which to me is a factor that can't be overlooked - eliminates a LOT of problems when you're able to run a drain to waste setup vs. recirculating - there's reasons most commercial greenhouses (of other plants) use drain to waste - keeps pathogens, pH, and PPM issues at bay.

Here's an excerpt from a Wikipedia article:

"Another distinct advantage of aeroponics over hydroponics is that any species of plants can be grown in a true aeroponic system because the micro environment of an aeroponic can be finely controlled. The limitation of hydroponics is that only certain species of plants can survive for so long in water before they become water logged. The advantage of aeroponics is due to the fact that suspended aeroponic plants receive 100% of the available oxygen and carbon dioxide to the roots zone, stems and leaves,[10] thus accelerating biomass growth and reducing rooting times. NASA research has shown that aeroponically grown plants have an 80% increase in dry weight biomass (essential minerals) compared to hydroponically grown plants. Aeroponics used 65% less water than hydroponics. NASA also concluded that aeroponically grown plants requires ¼ the nutrient input compared to hydroponics. Unlike hydroponically grown plants, aeroponically grown plants will not suffer transplant shock when transplanted to soil, and offers growers the ability to reduce the spread of disease and pathogens.[11] Aeroponics is also widely used in laboratory studies of plant physiology and plant pathology. Aeroponic techniques have been given special attention from NASA since a mist is easier to handle than a liquid in a zero gravity environment."


So in order to match the root system of a DWC, like say an undercurrent, you would need maybe double the chamber size (DWC fits enough roots in 8 gallon that it would take 20 gallon of aeroponic to fit).

Any "true" HP aero grower (of which I hope to become one day in the fairly near future) would rather sacrifice their firstborn than to have roots that look like the spaghetti roots of LP aero, DWC, NFT, etc......they want fuzzy roots, because fuzzy roots are efficient roots, and if nothing else, HP aero is the most efficient system in terms of electricity, nutes, and water used. Also, has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps all of the root rot/crop loss issues with RDWC has a relationship to trying to fit the roots of a massive plant into a small bucket? I don't know the answer to that, but it's something I've been thinking for a little bit now.

Also, as the root system becomes bigger, it gets harder to pump nutrients to the middle of the roots, since the outer roots block the air misting somewhat.

Well shit, if something is hard than I just give up :evilgrin0040: Orrrrr, we'll fuck around and experiment until we figure it out :) Not too difficult, simply gonna be a matter (as JG said above) of using silk screens to layer the roots......honestly, I really don't see any issue with that at all - just takes some foresight on nozzle placement and screen design in the rootzone.
So, unless you are only growing small plants, I think DWC might have an advantage..

IMO, there's something inherently flawed (again, this is my opinion and my opinion only) about a system that sits plants in water (when roots need oxygen), and to compensate uses air pumps and water pumps that heat up the water, and then uses another water pump and a chiller to keep the water cool - shit, even if that system worked 100% of the time, the inefficiency is astounding - BTW, this is MY THOUGHTS about all RDWC, not the MPBs or UCs or any other specific system.

Much simpler, IMHO, to just have the roots suspended in air, where they can get all the oxygen they want..........I know root rot can be possible in any system, but I like my chances better with roots sitting on air than sitting in water.

just some thoughts I came up with right now

Me too :)

Reponses are in blue.

 

[john guest]

Mist has a better chance of penetrating the rootmass than the water in a dwc.
Imagine a gap between the roots thats 0.5mm wide (0.02"), you can fit a line of six 80 micron droplets or sixteen 30 micron droplets through that and nothing will touch the sides.
What looks like a solid mass of roots to us is more like a bundled up fishing net to small droplets, its literally full of holes. A balloon loses air in the same way, the latex appears to be a solid barrier to the eye but to small air molecules, its a net full of holes ;)

 

[deseee]

Hi Bobby Smith and John Guest. You seem like a couple of real knowledgeable and friendly dudes so I was wondering if you might be willing and able to help me put together an aero setup for a Michigan med grow which is 72 plants total? Sealed basement grow in a room that's 12x20.

Ive recently purchased 8 of these 5"x5" by 8' posts for use as the containers and had figured 9 plant sites per post.

Originally I had only read about/been thinking low pressure so I bought 2 50 gallon rubbermaids, a bunch of 1/2 inch pvc and 100 of these micro sprayers http://www.irrigationdirect.com/dd-msf40

But after reading this thread and the "Project - forget the fogger, I'm going HP aero" post at gardenscure I'm thinking high pressure may be the better way to go, but I could use a bit of handholding through the process so I don't waste a bunch of time/money.

I've been looking at picking up one of these pumps
or this one https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4350-5800-demand-pump-5-gpm-160psi-38jg-120v-cord.aspx

but after the pump I get completely lost when it comes to sourcing the right misters/nozzles, expansion tanks, solenoids, tubing, fittings etc and putting it all together as it's all still a bit over my head.

I really appreciate your taking the time to read this and any advice you might have,
Cheers!

 

[Bobby Smith]

Firstly, I'm only a few weeks into this whole HP aero thing, so take that into consideration.

What is your experience level, and how necessary is it for you to harvest?

Also, what's your budget?

I'm above average in experience (started in the late 90s), have a fairly large amount of money to throw at this (for an enthusiast level grower), and this is simply a hobby for me, so I can take the plunge and afford a failure or two along the way.

If you're growing to pay your bills and you're not at least an intermediate level grower, there's probably better systems for you than designing a new room around an HP aero setup - not trying to discourage you, but just to help you make an informed decision - if a week before I harvest a pump goes out and I lose my entire crop, I'll be pissed but I'll still have a roof over my head and food on the table.

You can certainly build in redundancies to mitigate the points of weakness in the system, but that gets (even more) expensive and complicated; just wanna make sure you've thought this over before investing lots of time and money in something that may or may not be the best option for your particular needs.

 

[squarepusher]

Reponses are in blue.

Hi Bobby

Very fair response and answer. One big big problem, however, is in real world practice, DWC/RDWC produces the most impressive buds by far that I have seen.

There is a thread on another cannabis site, I wont post it due to respect for this forum, but the thread title is "Heaths latest tree grow" ... by Heath Robinson.

Heath uses no chillers, no air pumps, and aerates his water completely by just water movement and a spray type feeder, and his plant literally is breaking apart with buds and he got nearly 3 lbs off 1 plant if i remember!

I know aero on paper sounds good, however I'm struggling to remember seeing a really impressive aeroponics grow. As far as saving water, thats fine but water is low cost so not a huge issue. Nutrient savings can save some cost, which is good, and D2W is really my favorite reason for getting into aeroponics (yes, I am doing an aero setup now), however I feel like a lot of the reasons people use aeroponics is just to site some NASA study, or to show off root pictures. Most of us are here for maximum BUD yield, and for that I've been really impressed with RDWC pumping out some major performers.

Anyways, I am still planning to use aero, however I think there has to be some impressive aero grows before it can start living up to its name more.