Looking For A Simple Organic Soil.

Thanks for sharing @leadsled

Patanjali said:

What about the blood meal people are adding to their mixes? If you're into soil balancing (I'm not) blood meal is 12-0-0. and how much blood meal are people adding?

Just thinking...

P-

Edit: Food for thought on soil balancing:
http://onpasture.com/2014/06/23/soil-balancing-does-it-work/

Click to expand...

Same principle applies to anything in excess.
N ratios are related to healthy plants.
This is from lab testing the sap of plants.
When someone wants to know what is going on.

Neem is good. Just do not always put "more-on" and adding a 1/2 cup after each run.
Same goes for any input including Blood meal. Soil balancing usually does not cover nitrogen and it is often over applied.

That article is lacking in information. I care about quality. The article appears to be about yield. (quantity) When you get quality you also get quantity.

Albrecht studies soil health and how it relates to health. To make a statement about yields. Explains the lack of understanding. There is a cite of one instance of ph.

Balance of nutrients balances the ph. A balance of cations is related to pest and disease resistance.
Supposed to stir up people.
Balancing ph is related to nutrient balance.

Woah... each run? Oh no... Coot's mix is a one time deal. You can top dress a little if you want, but you don't want to be adding 1/2c of neem every run. I agree adding excess is never good, but what I'm hearing is people are dissing the Coot's mix saying it has too much nitrogen. I don't see how it has more N than subtool's or the rev's mix?

My experience is the need for Albrect's ratio's are greatly muted in an organic soil. High CEC eliminates the need for such precise balancing. Just like the article says, it's about having enough, not about precise ratios. I think the real problem with LOS is it has been bastardized so where people previously read and learned about nutrients and plants, now they order the clackamas coot nutrient kit and mix it with the buildasoil soil, and the xyz topdress kit, and now why don't my plants look right? Dumbing down the population in essence.

I don't really agree with the balancing of nutrients balances the pH. There are more factors involved than just nutrients.

Peace!

P-

leadsled said:

Same principle applies to anything in excess.
N ratios are related to healthy plants.
This is from lab testing the sap of plants.
When someone wants to know what is going on.

View attachment 570844 View attachment 570845

Neem is good. Just do not always put "more-on" and adding a 1/2 cup after each run.
Same goes for any input including Blood meal. Soil balancing usually does not cover nitrogen and it is often over applied.

That article is lacking in information. I care about quality. The article appears to be about yield. (quantity) When you get quality you also get quantity.

Albrecht studies soil health and how it relates to health. To make a statement about yields. Explains the lack of understanding. There is a cite of one instance of ph.

Balance of nutrients balances the ph. A balance of cations is related to pest and disease resistance.
Supposed to stir up people.
Balancing ph is related to nutrient balance.

View attachment 570840

Click to expand...

I wonder why fruit are different.

Patanjali said:

I don't really agree with the balancing of nutrients balances the pH. There are more factors involved than just nutrients.

Peace!

P-

Click to expand...

I agree with @leadsled

PH is on a scale 1-14, 1 being very acid, 14 being very alkaline. Ph is the concentration of hydrogen atoms in the solution being measured. One thing a gardener should understand, is every time a plant roots exchange a hydrogen cation for a nutrient cation, the amount of hydrogen atoms in the solution increases. Hence effecting the PH.

Then on top of that, nutrient ion exchanges influence what types of microorganisms live in the soil, and further dictating nutrient uptake, and balancing ph.

Bulldog11 said:

I agree with @leadsled

PH is on a scale 1-14, 1 being very acid, 14 being very alkaline. Ph is the concentration of hydrogen atoms in the solution being measured. One thing a gardener should understand, is every time a plant roots exchange a hydrogen cation for a nutrient cation, the amount of hydrogen atoms in the solution increases. Hence effecting the PH.

Then on top of that, nutrient ion exchanges influence what types of microorganisms live in the soil, and further dictating nutrient uptake, and balancing ph.

Click to expand...

I am aware of how pH is determined. This is just one instance of how there is more to pH then the nutrients added to the soil, which is my point:

From Teaming with Microbes:
I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don’t) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant’s rhizosphere by the plant’s exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn’t have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.

hth,

P-

Good point then. I thought you were arguing the apposite.:smoking:

Bulldog11 said:

Good point then. I thought you were arguing the apposite.:smoking:

Click to expand...

Sorry, it often makes sense in my head, and then with the help of too many bong hits, comes out garbled when I type.

You probably know this, but adding liming agents to soil isn't like adding yellow paint to blue and bam you have green. It is a more complex interaction between nutrients, flora/fauna, environment, etc.

“Modern research divides nature into tiny pieces and conducts tests that conform neither with natural law nor with practical experience. The results are arranged for the convenience of research, not according to the needs of the farmer.”
― Masanobu Fukuoka

Edit: To further expound on this I think looking strictly at npk is like saying the only things we need to worry about in our diets are fat, protein, and carbohydrates. Hardly a snapshot of a healthy diet.

P-

Patanjali said:

Woah... each run? Oh no... Coot's mix is a one time deal. You can top dress a little if you want, but you don't want to be adding 1/2c of neem every run. I agree adding excess is never good, but what I'm hearing is people are dissing the Coot's mix saying it has too much nitrogen. I don't see how it has more N than subtool's or the rev's mix?

My experience is the need for Albrect's ratio's are greatly muted in an organic soil. High CEC eliminates the need for such precise balancing. Just like the article says, it's about having enough, not about precise ratios. I think the real problem with LOS is it has been bastardized so where people previously read and learned about nutrients and plants, now they order the clackamas coot nutrient kit and mix it with the buildasoil soil, and the xyz topdress kit, and now why don't my plants look right? Dumbing down the population in essence.

I don't really agree with the balancing of nutrients balances the pH. There are more factors involved than just nutrients.

Peace!

P-

Click to expand...

IMHO, You are cracking me up with your statement about how coots got "dissed".

You ever clack coot grow a bud? Hell no. He shows crappy little plants that are not happy.

You want to learn about sourdough bread?? Clack is your man.
Want to ask a question about enzymes?
Clack will have you waste your time learning about enzymes in humans on khan academy.
No clue about co-factors and soil enzymes. I pointed that out and he took notes.

You are correct that there is more to ph than chemistry.
Some growers want to speed things up. Because they have tested things and see how to optimize there grow.

Take years for biology the balance the chemistry. Then sometimes can hit a wall.

Same goes for chemistry without biology. Both are needed and compliment each other.

Also what if there is a problem? That is a way to troubleshoot and get an idea of what is going down.

Take someone else's soil mix, change an ingredient and put your name on it. Name it after yourself and belittle anyone who questions you. That is a "diss".

Asking if the soil could potentially has too much N a diss??? NO.
Is it possible to make a mistake: Yes.
Cmon more than one way to do things. YMMV.

Experience:
I have seen a huge difference in multiple locations with multiple growers. Indoor outdoor, greenhouses. Lots of factors involved that make a difference.

Biology benefits chemistry and chemistry benefits biology. They work together. If one is lacking the soil plant system can not do it job as well. More to balancing the ph than chemistry alone

You will not get all the facts if you take things at face value. You are making some broad assumptions about testing and that it is the end all solution.
Some people use tools to maximize there results and track if there is any improvements.

Others do nothing.

You are basing information on your results in one grow based on soil you may have mixed and also sourced quality compost.
All that makes a huge difference in the results you get.
To compare a soil sold at buildasoil with the clack coots name to a home made mix is not the same.
Think about it. Not a one size fits all scenario.

While doing consulting get to see many different grows inside and outside. That gives much more exposure to many different scenarios than one grow.

Sometime the chemistry it not that far off and biology will make a huge difference.

An example. The soil is lacking in calcium and excessive magnesium the soil can be tight and anaerobic. The aerobic biology we want will not thrive because the chemistry is so far off it is effecting the physical structure of the soil.
After adding calcium. The soil texture improved and later tests of biology showed it was thriving and the plants were healthy again.

Here is another example where we used alot of compost tea to get the soil going.
We did not test the soil.
We applied compost extracts and the plants started thriving.
Again: We did not need to test the soil because the plants were doing excellent.

Our methods made a huge difference. But the following year. The plant were not looking as good.
The pests arrived as well. We tested the biology and it was not thriving. We then tested the chemistry of the soil. I
t is lacking in calcium and has excess magnesium.
The biology has done its job and needs some help.

We amended with calcium and that helped add balance the soil adding back what is needed for the biology to thrive again. The plants are shining and healthy.


Biology takes time to balance out. If things are not going well than there are tool and methods to provide more knowledge on troubleshooting. If everything is going good great. Do not need to test.
Maybe a problem gets fixed. But if there is a problem and you can not figure out why? Here are tools to help.

Do you have to test soil? No.
Do you want to know what is going on? Than you can test.
The Albrecht studies were done for over 30 years. Soil fertility and animal health is of soils all over the world and how it relates to health. Just more information and tools to get the job done.
Respect!

Patanjali said:

Sorry, it often makes sense in my head, and then with the help of too many bong hits, comes out garbled when I type.

You probably know this, but adding liming agents to soil isn't like adding yellow paint to blue and bam you have green. It is a more complex interaction between nutrients, flora/fauna, environment, etc.

“Modern research divides nature into tiny pieces and conducts tests that conform neither with natural law nor with practical experience. The results are arranged for the convenience of research, not according to the needs of the farmer.”
― Masanobu Fukuoka

Edit: To further expound on this I think looking strictly at npk is like saying the only things we need to worry about in our diets are fat, protein, and carbohydrates. Hardly a snapshot of a healthy diet.

P-

Click to expand...

Appears you are making some assumptions based on your limited information. All going for the same end result. A healthy soil that is balanced in chemistry, biology and texture.

You are taking things at face value. AS if chemistry is an end all solution. Same goes for the statement biology trumps chemistry. That can be the case but is not to be taken as the single solution that solves all problems. Same goes for chemistry or physical properties of soil .

Much more to it. Same goes for NPK. I only used NPK as example because npk is listed on labels. You are MAYBE not reading OR comprehending all the information if you are assuming it is all about solely NPK!

leadsled said:

IMHO, You are cracking me up with your statement about how coots got "dissed".

You ever clack coot grow a bud? Hell no. He shows crappy little plants that are not happy.

You want to learn about sourdough bread?? Clack is your man.
Want to ask a question about enzymes?
Clack will have you waste your time learning about enzymes in humans on khan academy.
No clue about co-factors and soil enzymes. I pointed that out and he took notes.

You are correct that there is more to ph than chemistry.
Some growers want to speed things up. Because they have tested things and see how to optimize there grow.

Take years for biology the balance the chemistry. Then sometimes can hit a wall.

Same goes for chemistry without biology. Both are needed and compliment each other.

Also what if there is a problem? That is a way to troubleshoot and get an idea of what is going down.

Take someone else's soil mix, change an ingredient and put your name on it. Name it after yourself and belittle anyone who questions you. That is a "diss".

Asking if the soil could potentially has too much N a diss??? NO.
Is it possible to make a mistake: Yes.
Cmon more than one way to do things. YMMV.

Experience:
I have seen a huge difference in multiple locations with multiple growers. Indoor outdoor, greenhouses. Lots of factors involved that make a difference.

Biology benefits chemistry and chemistry benefits biology. They work together. If one is lacking the soil plant system can not do it job as well. More to balancing the ph than chemistry alone

You will not get all the facts if you take things at face value. You are making some broad assumptions about testing and that it is the end all solution.
Some people use tools to maximize there results and track if there is any improvements.

Others do nothing.

You are basing information on your results in one grow based on soil you may have mixed and also sourced quality compost.
All that makes a huge difference in the results you get.
To compare a soil sold at buildasoil with the clack coots name to a home made mix is not the same.
Think about it. Not a one size fits all scenario.

While doing consulting get to see many different grows inside and outside. That gives much more exposure to many different scenarios than one grow.

Sometime the chemistry it not that far off and biology will make a huge difference.

An example. The soil is lacking in calcium and excessive magnesium the soil can be tight and anaerobic. The aerobic biology we want will not thrive because the chemistry is so far off it is effecting the physical structure of the soil.
After adding calcium. The soil texture improved and later tests of biology showed it was thriving and the plants were healthy again.

Here is another example where we used alot of compost tea to get the soil going.
We did not test the soil.
We applied compost extracts and the plants started thriving.
Again: We did not need to test the soil because the plants were doing excellent.

Our methods made a huge difference. But the following year. The plant were not looking as good.
The pests arrived as well. We tested the biology and it was not thriving. We then tested the chemistry of the soil. I
t is lacking in calcium and has excess magnesium.
The biology has done its job and needs some help.

We amended with calcium and that helped add balance the soil adding back what is needed for the biology to thrive again. The plants are shining and healthy.


Biology takes time to balance out. If things are not going well than there are tool and methods to provide more knowledge on troubleshooting. If everything is going good great. Do not need to test.
Maybe a problem gets fixed. But if there is a problem and you can not figure out why? Here are tools to help.

Do you have to test soil? No.
Do you want to know what is going on? Than you can test.
The Albrecht studies were done for over 30 years. Soil fertility and animal health is of soils all over the world and how it relates to health. Just more information and tools to get the job done.
Respect!

Click to expand...

You typed up all that after you posted up a Coot's mix recipe to someone and then come back saying don't use it my math is off? And you're dissing Coot? Lol! Come on man, he has shaped the way people grow cannabis. Give some respect where it is due. If you are really consulting, you should know a soil recipe off the top of your head, not quoting a coot mix, and then coming back to diss it.

P-

Coots mix is great. I have started several threads on great I think it is. Is it perfect, no. Do inputs vary, yes. Coots mix from grass valley had a ph of 7 to start. With that said, I would hire (and hopefully am) leadslead for consulting. I have soil that is three years old that needs tweaking, along with new soil I am making from bulk inputs in my area.

I think a professional grow could benefit from someone like leadsled, or coots knowledge for that matter. Always ready to learn how to grow a healthier crop.

For the record, I have seen Leadsled argue against Neem. He first claimed some math, and showed why he thought that was the correct way to calculate that math. Then he was corrected on the math, and gladly showed his errors. When criticism of coots mix comes, it's sometimes met with hostility. I think a discussion about what might make it better is always welcome.

I agree, but sometimes people get upset if you debate something delivered by their guru. I myself enjoyed the post, greatly, because I've seen what lead is talking about.

I won't ask him how to bake sourdough, there are too many good and kind masters out there.

I'm disappointed when people let their personality conflicts get in the way of their learning. I realize Coot may have been a little less than cordial to some, but that is no reason to discount the knowledge he brings to the table. Not to mention he has more experience and education than most.

To each their own, but I'll put my Coot mix plants up against any.


P-

But, see, here's the thing. I'm learning without Coot's special kind of input. And I'm enjoying myself *and* the learning experience so much more because of it. I will give credit where credit is due, but I will not where it isn't. So, he's cashing in with help from others. Great! I'm not buying into it.

Patanjali said:

To each their own, but I'll put my Coot mix plants up against any.


P-

Click to expand...

Me too. Including what leadsled is providing. Come Oct we shall see who prevails.

When you guys are using Coots mix and using it multiple years in a row, outdoors...what do you do during the winter months? I'm following the mix off of build-a-soil and going to use it in my raised beds, in my greenhouse this season and would like to continue using it for years to come. I live at 6k and needless to say it gets sub freeze for weeks at a time and I don't heat my greenhouse in the winter. Do you still cover crop, or just mulch in these conditions? Do I need to water the soil during the winter? Any advice or a link would be helpful. Your guys knowledge is helping me bigtime, much respect.

Underthesun said:

When you guys are using Coots mix and using it multiple years in a row, outdoors...what do you do during the winter months? I'm following the mix off of build-a-soil and going to use it in my raised beds, in my greenhouse this season and would like to continue using it for years to come. I live at 6k and needless to say it gets sub freeze for weeks at a time and I don't heat my greenhouse in the winter. Do you still cover crop, or just mulch in these conditions? Do I need to water the soil during the winter? Any advice or a link would be helpful. Your guys knowledge is helping me bigtime, much respect.

Click to expand...

Not sure about your temps, but what about winter rye?

Coots soil mix is all about living soil. If you let your soil dry out in the off season, that hurts the quality. If it's too cold, then a mulch will do wonders. However a living cover crop is the best option. Using c4 cover crops, you will be able to produce your own mycorrhizae for the next season. When you till your cover crops, you also gain organic matter and extra biology. (bacteria dominate) For me personally, a cover crop is a must.

I agree, though I'm at about half of UTS's elevation so don't experience the same conditions. I'm sure there's got to be a suitable crop out there for him, though.

Underthesun said:

When you guys are using Coots mix and using it multiple years in a row, outdoors...what do you do during the winter months? I'm following the mix off of build-a-soil and going to use it in my raised beds, in my greenhouse this season and would like to continue using it for years to come. I live at 6k and needless to say it gets sub freeze for weeks at a time and I don't heat my greenhouse in the winter. Do you still cover crop, or just mulch in these conditions? Do I need to water the soil during the winter? Any advice or a link would be helpful. Your guys knowledge is helping me bigtime, much respect.

Click to expand...

I'd start looking to stuff like Austrian winter peas, garbanzos are said to be another good winter crop, the rye grass Bulldog mentioned and... has anyone posted the USDA cover cropping guide? Hold on, lemme repost even if it's up.



http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=20323

They grow winter wheat out here, but not in raised beds. I'll check out those links. Yeah, when I went to start digging out my raised beds all my soil was bone dry from being in the greenhouse. Just got the wheels turning on how I'll manage my soil next winter. I'll check into winter rye and let everyone know what I find out. Thanks, yo!