1 plant droops with small growth, several others get necrotic, all happening fast.

[NNN]

Can these lovely but complicated plants switch to flower ASAP?

Hello Farmers!

I've got a 2x4 ebb and flow system under a 400w MH w/ 9 Blue Dream (BD),3 AK-47, 5 Cheese. Threw out an additional 2 AKs and one BD. The AKs had only 3 leaflet inward dark growth and the BD was very droopy and had a black growth on the side of its rockwool medium. I threw them out because I'm on a tight time frame and I can't wait additional weeks for recovery and the time spent investigating and healing would have certainly cut into my day-job (though I would prefered to have learned how to fix them). The BDs are almost all in 4" rockwool in hydroton (several still in the manufacturer sleeve) and the others are 1' rockwool in hydroton in ~6" net pots. I received all of them from clone, with the AK & Cheese one week older than the BDs. I think I screwed up pretty badly on the Cheeses and AKs, shocking them with light and a couple other possible mistakes (too low nutes, failed attempt at organic in hydro). The BD have been looking great growing fast except for the one I tossed and this one which just started acting up on me in the last 24-48 hours (see attached image with redish brown growth, twisted new shoots, and the leaves are drooping).

The AKs are all showing browning/necrosis along the outer edge of lower branch leaves, including spotting on the inside of some leaflets. I applied NEEM at 1 tsp:1 Liter ~2 days ago due to a 2-spot mite development (which never got out of control but started spotting a few leaves).

The pH of my res has gone up every day, and when it gets to 6.5 (most was 6.8) I bring it back down to 5.8-6.0. My TDS levels were last around 1300, but went as high as the 1600s (at which point I added ~3 gallons to my res and it went down considerably). But my TDS count doesn't seem to stop rising (slower now perhaps) after several days. My rockwool was pH adjusted, my nutes are Supernatural Gro Aqua at recommended dosing.

The Supernatural Gro Aqua recommends 700-1000 ppm, but my TDS meter said ~1500 ppm when I followed their instructions at ~2/3 of their recommended dosing. I have a 20 gal res that is pretty much always 70 degrees. The room temps have been kept low due to the mites, moving between 70-75 (lowest 66 highest 80). My humidity stays 30-40 RH, but as low as 20 and highs are usually 50, but this morning my meter said it was 62 which I found very hard to believe (I have an AC in the room around the 5x5 Jardin tent).

My AKs and Cheeses are LST'd and two BDs have had two lower branches cut off (experimenting with light-weight lollipopping due to limited space).

I can add a second tray and res to the space if I needed to, but would rather not because it would be a lot more work and make very cramped space. A lot of my ebb and flow equipment is second hand, but EVERYTHING was washed by some mix of bleaching/H2O2/boiling-water/rinsing-rinsing-rinsing. This is my first grow (!), I hadn't intended on making it this massive of a project, but I came upon a great deal for a lot of equipment and I super-sized my goal. Don't regret the decision at all, I'm learning a lot and I love projects. But at until recently this project kept me up all night! I see the investment as worth it, because its an investment of LOVE! These plants and the plant in general have won my heart!

And I need to switch to flower ASAP! I need these beauties to be completely harvested by mid-May!! I was hoping to already be doing a 24-hour dark period today along with a flush. They will be put under a 600w HPS afterwards, with Supernatural Bloom Aqua (full strength?) and Sugar Daddy after I believe its safe to add another variable.

I have more questions in the future but for now I'm most in need of getting the necrotic edges/spots to stop, and to heal the BD that is now drooping and has the orangish growth. I've used the search function of this and other sites, but I ended up more confused honestly.

 

[Papa]

Attachments not working, will post photos ASAP! Have to find out best site to host photos since thcfarmer doesn't let Android upload attachments.

the farm does not allow linking to outside host sites.
android should not be a problem.
for instructions on uploading your photos, see the link in my sig line.
reduce image size to 1mb for quick and easy uploading.


Papa

 

[NNN]

I checked that helpful forum sticky, but unfortunately on my default Android browser, clicking "choose file" does nothing. No file browser opens, nothing. The boards image insertion button asks for an URL, so I thought I could link. Guess I will have to wait to het to a diff computer. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Papa]

oh yeah, you can't upload images from a phone, or ipad. they don't save images like on a pc, where you can identify the file to upload.
you're going to need something with a hard drive.

 

[420Gator]

it can be done if ur device uses an SD card just download opera mini

 

[lil miss lone]

NNN, any pest activity in the room?

 

[Seamaiden]

What I see looks like physical damage, perhaps from the Neem you sprayed for the mites. The one leaf is showing what appears to be a combination Ca/Mg problem (leaf necrosis coupled with interveinal chlorosis).

You're certain the mites are dealt with? Usually once spotting is seen it's become a bit of a problem.

The rest of what I see appears to be a combination of disliked pH (twisting, contorted leaves) and possibly cool conditions with low relative humidity, or at least to one girl's preference the humidity may not be where she likes it (the drooping, assuming they're not limp though).

 

[NNN]

Lil Miss Lone: definitely had some mites that I aggressively responded to.

Seaman: I was hoping it was only Neem damage. I was hoping it wasn't a nutrient deficiency since I'm using Supernatural Gro Aqua and it has a blend of trace nutrients which I thought would cover everything.

I'm not certain its the last I've seen of the mites, but when I first identified them they did seem contained to a few sets of leaves. My plan has been to spray Neem again after 5-7 days, which is coming up.

Would it be okay to go to 24 hour dark period (I was going to start this at 6am tomorrow), flower 12/12 for a day or two, then apply Neem again? I was thinking to do one water flush during the dark period (or maybe with the Clearex I have?)?

My pH is getting weird. It went from 5.8 or 5.9 to 6.8 in 24 hours (2 or 3 floods). Last night I took it back down to 5.8, but it took more pH-down than it did in previous days. Is it better to be close to 5.8 (or lower if you recommend) or closer to 6.8? I'm going to try to get the temp to center around 75/76 instead of averaging 72.5. I will also see about increasing the humidity, but I started to think that the drooping BD in the first two photos might be OVER-watered. I'll check for limp-ness in a few hours.

Can I switch to 12/12 under these conditions? Does my overall plan/setup/progress seem satisfactory?

THANK YOU!

 

[amstercal]

I second Seamaiden with the Neem and pH burn. Maybe your lights need to be left off longer when you spray? Definitely do a second and even third spraying at least 3 days apart. I'm sure little mite babies are being born as we speak.

The 6.8 is definitely getting too high, looking at your plants. It sounds like from your ppm shifts that you are just feeding them too high. What is the ppm of the water you are starting with? Are you using tap?

First, their rec of 700-1000 is good. I'd go the lower end of that until they are healthy again. If you are following their formula correctly and it's not coming to the right range of ppms, either you are starting with water that is too high or something is wrong with the nutes or how they're being mixed.
If the ppms are rising dramatically every day and causing the pH to swing, they want to be fed at lower ppms.
Maybe flush now, get your res at like 650-750ppm and give them a few days to see good growth.
As far as switching them, the healthier they are, the better they will yield for you, but if the timing is more important... They bounce back pretty quickly if given the right "medicine." So even as soon as a day or two, you could see new healthy growth. The damaged stuff won't get better.

I think the 72 on your temps is fine, especially if you don't have a chiller and the room temp is helping maintain the water temp. Higher would not be bad, but since you are already changing a few things, maybe give your plants a slow progression for another change.

 

[NNN]

If the Neem application did so much damage, I'm afraid to do two more applications within 6 days, but I didn't switch lights off before (the damage took several days, if that means anything).

The ppm of the tap water I use is supposedly 80ppm. I say supposedly because the store I purchased my calibration solution sold me a bottle that I found out was open and half-used. My meter can't even read the solution (errors out). I have a RO filter which I have to get the right adaptor for to hook up to my sink, but the tap water in my area is supposed to be famously good. I was also told by a grower or two that it should be fine (barring bad pipes, which could be the case).

I will test out smaller batches of nute mix to find out what I might be doing wrong with the high ppms.

I don't have a chiller, and I'm concerned of complicating-variables, so your advice on the temp is well-taken.

The rest of the Blue Dreams (only one is bad) are probably going to be my biggest yeilders and have been looking very healthy. Because of this and my tight time frame I think I will flip them soon, probably tomorrow.

To everyone: what is the max pH I should allow it to rise to given the setup? I've heard suggestions and was under the impression that 6.8 is okay but the max (but perhaps that is better advice to soil-medium grows).

Many thanks!

 

[NNN]

Update and important questions

I've flipped them to 12/12, so now they are under a 600w HPS. My biggest concern right now is how quickly the pH changes. Within 24 hours (2 8-minute floods) my pH will go from 5.8 to 6.4, and after another flood or two its 6.8. I'm trying to keep the pH between 5.8 and 6.4, but its jumping so FAST. Might there be a problem, or does this happen? Can I safely add a buffer of some sort?

Given this setup, will I be able to keep everything in this one tray? Should I lollipop the bottom branches of the plants I have running along the center (side plants are LST'ed)? Any advice welcome!

 

[Seamaiden]

Yes, you're correct, that pH range hitting 6.8 is appropriate for soil, definitely not for rockwool/hydroton. If it were me, I would start premixing my reservoir batches and bubble them for 24-48hrs before putting into the reservoir, making adjustments to pH as it bounces but before it's fed to the plants. BUT! I don't do e&f, so if someone else comes along with experience doing e&f who says do it such and thus way, listen to them, k?

 

[NNN]

NEW PROBLEMS! EEK! Is this nitrogen deficiency? What is it and what should I do?

NEW PROBLEMS! EEK! Is this nitrogen deficiency? What is it and what should I do?

Oh my poor ladies, they really are feeling the pains of having a first-time grower!

So my new growth is getting twisty and small, and the top and mid leaves are turning yellow from the inside. The outsides and lower leaves are dark(ish) green. I only watered the plants for the 24 hour dark period, so I'm hoping this is a delayed onset of symptoms of nutrient deficiency. They reservoir is now on about 2/3 strength bloom aqua (Supernatural brand), with pH going up to 6.4ish but being brought down to 5.8 daily or every other day. PPM is more reasonable this time around at 1150.

Should I make a new thread for these new issues? I'm worried because the plants that are really experiencing these symptoms are the second batch of clones that were looking great and had no issues :(

Seamaiden: I like your idea of pre-mixing and aerating, but its really impractical for me to fill a second 20gal reservoir, because the nutrient powder I use is supposed to be mixed only into the final amount of water needed.

 

[Seamaiden]

It looks like you already know pH shift is a problem. Get that under control, see what happens, then reassess the situation. If I were you I'd start reading through the e&f threads, see what I can find on keeping pH stable. For one thing, though, if you're using tap water, you're NEVER going to get it to stabilize in the range where you want it. Look up "alkalinity" to understand why.

 

[NNN]

Thanks Seamaiden, your advice pushed me to find pH stabilization solutions. I've since lowered the return pipe of my ebb&flow setup, so the water won't go too high and also be exposed to light. I've tilted my tray so water doesn't sit in any corners. We'll see how things go. I may add H2O2. I've also been told recently that it was a mistake to add ph up after too much ph down (only did that once). My reservoir has 1/8" to 1/4" gaps around the uptake and downtake hoses and air hoses, is this enough to produce algae and other problems?

I hope the symptoms ease away, but I'm curious as to what exactly went wrong. The plants all had very specific symptoms: yellowing on the top half of leaves, with the yellowing coming from the inside of the leaflets. Multiple leaflets lost tissue, not through dying tissue but the disappearance of tissue! Lower leaves have been dark green, maybe too much in some cases.

I think I need to post this next question to another forum, but I'm seriously wondering what I should do to keep all the plants in this one tray. They have been GROWING, crowding each other out, and I'm only at the end of the 1st week of flower! I may have to do some bending to plants I thought I wasn't going to. I haven't wanted to prune the lower growth due to the stress but I wonder if I have to (I REALLY don't want to switch to two trays & reservoirs unless I NEED to). I'm wondering if I should FIM in the next week to keep the plants shorter.

Finally, I've changed the water schedule. it was 8 minutes at 6 am and pm, and 12 am and pm. Now I have it water once in the middle of the dark period 15 min, then one hour after light on, then 5 hours later, and 2 hours before lights off.

 

[Brad 420 Marley]

tobacco mosaic virus:rain that's what it looks like to me. google it, it reeks havoc on crops. kinda funny u hardly hear 'bout it