9K CGE 16 site vertical UC room advice. Critical + 2.0

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stickynick

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Hi guys,

Long time reader first time poster!

So it's my first post here but I've been watching for many years.

I'm about to embark on building my first purpose built room and thought I would throw it in here to get some feedback prior to starting to order some hardware.

I'm experienced in hydro (water culture) Never had roots in anything but water and have run a few vertical light flooded tube systems and looking for something that scales up better with a lower plant count and embarking on a first time CGE environment.

Please forgive me if some of my imperial measurements are off as I'm in a metric country with 230v

I'd like feedback or concerns on any items mentioned and appreciate all of your time.

The Room.

To be built 15'6 x 15'6 x 7 ft Timber framed lined with plywood and insulated with R3.4 insulation. Painted in flat white mould & moisture resistant paint. Flooring is concrete slab polished.

The room will be supplied with 3 x 50 amp 230v feeds with AC running across 2 feeds and 3 lights on each with ancillary items run off the feed not supplying the AC.

Cooling
I will be cooling with 2 x Toshiba 12.5kw (42k btu I think) cassette heat pumps mounted in the ceiling. (Providiing redundancy) I will be leaving this running through the night to maintain specific night temperature and to provide dehumidifying capability. Night temperatures will require the units to heat. Day target of 78f night target of 68f

Hydro
I'm looking to go for the UCDB16XXL13 this would be changed to run 45" centers and be chilled by 2 x 1/4hp chillers plumbed in parallel on the double barrel lines. I will be running dual pumps either side of the double barrel and carry a spare 1/4 hp chiller for the event of a failure and will be insulating the piping in neoprene foam. Media will be hydroton.

Lamps
I will be running 9 x vertically hung bare bulb 1000w lamps. Metal Halide for veg & HPS I plan to veg in the UC straight from Aero. - Digital Ballasts. These are to be hung so that each light is surrounded by 4 plants. Some plants will have les light as only one side is lit being on the outside. But I'm sure you guys can figure out what I mean.

Co2
Is to be supplied by 70lb Food grade tanks and controlled by a Superpro carbon B1 Analog controller (same as the hydrofarm autopilot analog unit ) which will be reference checked by a secondary display. I plan to pump 1500 ppm once roots pop in the UC till week 1 flower then 1800 ppm till the day I turn the lights off.

Nutrients.
I'm limited on what is available so I can only run the Canna A + B and may have a bloom booster available to me. I will be running the suggested EC by CCHh20. and shooting for a 65f temp target.

Water
50ppm from the tap and will be recovered from the AC. Reservoir will be a 1000L tank I mix the next weeks nutrient on and be float level fed into the UC epicenter.

Carbon filters 2 x 800 cfm.

Plants will be trained into game fencing surrounding each UC module.

My goal is to average 1 1/4 # per site. But I think that I should smash that. I'm planning to Veg 12" Crtitical + 2.0 clones for 16 - 18 days lit by 1000w and with 1500 ppm co2.

Once again all of your feedback is welcomed.

Sticky.
 
Papa

Papa

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welcome to the farm stickynick!
'sounds like a plan.
i'm sure others will chime in.
'just a couple of things to think about . . .
you might consider shooting for higher temps during the day for more effective CO2 use. 1,800 ppm is a waste. i've seen numbers that anything over 1,200 or 1,500 ppm is a waste.
using two smaller chillers instead of a larger chiller is odd . . . unless you already have them and want to put them to use.
i haven't run Canna . . . but i'd skip the booster. 'seems like a lot of folks, including me, have run into problems with various boosters . . . and the upside when it works well is negligible.
depending on your native temperatures, you may be in need of more a/c. i prefer at least 6k btu per 1,000w.
i hope that you're drywalling or plastering over that plywood before the paint. in a moist room you risk mold growing on that plywood. best to seal it up and paint a smooth surface.
one thing i notice that you haven't covered is room exhaust. it's very helpful to exhaust your room at the transition from day to night, get all the CO2 out and fresh air in.
. . . and, the biggest battle that you'll have is keeping the humidity up. those a/c's are damn good dehumidifiers, and especially during veg and early flower, you're going to want to counteract that with massive humidification.
 
S

stickynick

5
1
welcome to the farm stickynick!
'sounds like a plan.
i'm sure others will chime in.
'just a couple of things to think about . . .
you might consider shooting for higher temps during the day for more effective CO2 use. 1,800 ppm is a waste. i've seen numbers that anything over 1,200 or 1,500 ppm is a waste.
using two smaller chillers instead of a larger chiller is odd . . . unless you already have them and want to put them to use.
i haven't run Canna . . . but i'd skip the booster. 'seems like a lot of folks, including me, have run into problems with various boosters . . . and the upside when it works well is negligible.
depending on your native temperatures, you may be in need of more a/c. i prefer at least 6k btu per 1,000w.
i hope that you're drywalling or plastering over that plywood before the paint. in a moist room you risk mold growing on that plywood. best to seal it up and paint a smooth surface.
one thing i notice that you haven't covered is room exhaust. it's very helpful to exhaust your room at the transition from day to night, get all the CO2 out and fresh air in.
. . . and, the biggest battle that you'll have is keeping the humidity up. those a/c's are damn good dehumidifiers, and especially during veg and early flower, you're going to want to counteract that with massive humidification.

Thanks for the welcome Papa,

So I will go through this point by point.

Nutrients.

With the nutrients I'm a 100% in agreement with just running the basics. I never have actually used any boosters before. I possibly was biased after watching a video with Dan from CCh20 making recommendations. But from my own experience you don't actually need anything else to pollute your water.

A/C & Humidity.

Ok I completely get what you are saying on the low humidity front. The residual humidity in the air where I will be located is generally very high. Usually 75% - 90% with a ambient that will apart from 3 - 5 days per year for a few hours. Never exceed the daytime target of the room. So I should be ok on the A/C front - I checked the sheets and both units are 48k BTU so with just under 100k btu I technically could cool the bulbs on one of the units. But having a second will keep them operating in the most efficient range.

Plywood & Paint.

Ok so I'm going to need some advice on this. All I intended to do was use a treated plywood and have mould & mildew resistant paint sprayed everywhere. I had factored on the fact that if I can maintain 45% humidity I would be fine.

Room Exhaust.

I don't plan to vent anything out of the room. Bugs , insects and other nasties are rife where the room will be. I also do not want to pump smell outside.

Co2

I see your comments and it seems to be backed up everywhere. But if I'm running tanked Co2 & not concerned about waste. I'm not going to do any harm am I?

Chillers

I currently have 1x 1/4hp unit. Units of above 1/4hp are significantly more expensive and the cost of purchasing a unit to provide a fallback is significantly more. The statistics support my case of running the 2 with a hot spare allowing for less than a 1% chance of having a double failure compared with 10% of a single.

My concern on this front is - is a pair of 1/4hp units capable of handling this?
 
F

FooDoo

1,278
263
I agree with everything said.

1800 ppm is insanity. Absolute waste of co2 even if its sitting in a sealed room and not leaking anywhere.

I have mine set to turn on at 900ppm and off @ 1100 ppm. I never see above 1200 unless I'm in the room for awhile. I run a 11x12 ucdb16 and two 20 # tanks lasts a full 2 week veg + 10 week bloom. 70 # tank is extrrmely heavy. How do you plan on carrying that around when you need a refill

The two chillers thing also boggles my mind. I can perfectly read that you want some "backup" type thing with a chiller but honestly its a silly idea that makes no sense.

Out of the thousands of growers, have you ever seen anyone run a double chiller? Didn't think so. Now do you think that's because we are all dumb and you know something we don't or simply because its completely unnecessary
 
S

stickynick

5
1
I agree with everything said.

1800 ppm is insanity. Absolute waste of co2 even if its sitting in a sealed room and not leaking anywhere.

I have mine set to turn on at 900ppm and off @ 1100 ppm. I never see above 1200 unless I'm in the room for awhile.

The two chillers thing also boggles my mind. I can perefectly read that you want some "backup" type thing with a chiller but honestly its a silly idea that makes no sense.

Out of the thousands of growers, have you ever seen anyone run a double chikler? Didn't think so. Now do you think that's because we are all dumb and you know something we don't or simply because its completely unnecessary

Thanks for the input. Part of the justification is the long lead time I would have on getting a replacement. If I had 110v I would run a ECO plus 1hp. the 1/4hp chiller size is the largest that's stocked that isn't air freight. Last thing I want is to be put on hold because of a failure of an item. Also the cost of a 1/2hp vs a 1/4hp in my area is more than double.

I think I will re-think my thoughts on the PPM level of CO2

Thanks for the comments.
 
F

FooDoo

1,278
263
Might as well touch on the other pionts you listed.

Nutrients ive never used canna. But if using canna nutrients I WOULD NOT follow CCH20 ec chart . if I were you, I'd google canna stats calculator and get to the Angel fire page that has it. Plug in the values and weight of canna a+b into the calculator and work the ml/gal until you get the ideal n-p-k-mg of 100-100-200-60 but the leaner the better so I aim a little less.

After that, mix it into a gal of your water and read ppm. that's your full ppm. Start veg at 25% and work your way up to 100% as the plants call for it.

66-68 is fine, dont need to aim for 65 all the time.

Mini split can take a sealed room with 100% humidity to 20% in about 5 minutes. You will 10000000052526827251% need a humidifier with lights on.

You will 100% need a dehumid with lights off. Mini splits don't run very long and the plants sweat like crazy. You'll have a pool in that room within 5 minutes of lights off

Also I'd go up to 82 degress with co2 instead of 78. 72+ at night since you don't want more than a 10 degree drop

I think there's more but I have to get back to trimming
 
S

stickynick

5
1
Might as well touch on the other pionts you listed.

Nutrients ive never used canna. But if using canna nutrients I WOULD NOT follow CCH20 ec chart . if I were you, I'd google canna stats calculator and get to the Angel fire page that has it. Plug in the values and weight of canna a+b into the calculator and work the ml/gal until you get the ideal n-p-k-mg of 100-100-200-60 but the leaner the better so I aim a little less.

After that, mix it into a gal of your water and read ppm. that's your full ppm. Start veg at 25% and work your way up to 100% as the plants call for it.

66-68 is fine, dont need to aim for 65 all the time.

Mini split can take a sealed room with 100% humidity to 20% in about 5 minutes. You will 10000000052526827251% need a humidifier with lights on.

You will 100% need a dehumid with lights off. Mini splits don't run very long and the plants sweat like crazy. You'll have a pool in that room within 5 minutes of lights off

Also I'd go up to 82 degress with co2 instead of 78. 72+ at night since you don't want more than a 10 degree drop

I think there's more but I have to get back to trimming

Ok. So what do I use to manage humidity during lights on. i.e add humidity in a measured method?

I had planned to have the AC units set a couple of degrees apart at night to fight each other causing the humidity to drop and the temperature to be set somewhere in the middle of the 2 set points. Saving me the need to have an industrial sized dehumidifier as I can't find a single unit off the shelf with enough capacity to do the job.
 
Papa

Papa

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by the sounds of it you're in europe, which has different building materials than what is available in cali. with what we have available here, i frame in lumber, sheath in plywood, cover that with 5/8" drywall, mud, caulk, prime, and paint several coats with flat latex. it provides a sealed environment that will do alright with high humidity and is easy to clean. the plywood allows me to put a screw in anywhere and get structural support. a room built like this will last many years without a problem. you'll need to figure out how to achieve something similar with whatever materials and skills you have available. if you're building a room that is expected to be used for less or more time, you may make different design decisions.

re: exhaust . . . you will want to exhaust. both smell and insects can be addressed with filters, carbon filter for smell and a shroom filter for insects. for your size room i'd recommend a 12" duct exhaust and a 12" duct intake. a damper on each duct and everything on a timer to open her up and exhaust for 20-30 minutes at lights off. your plants will thank you for it.

generally, you can grow weed in low humidity and high heat, etc., but FooDoo and I have made recommendations to improve the room you've already planned. number of lights and how many splits is the easy part. figuring out how you're going to maintain the best VPD is what steps up the game.

"I can't find a single unit off the shelf with enough capacity to do the job." option #1: get two. option #2: build a smaller room.

if you have concrete floors with drainage you might opt for centrifugal humidifiers. during veg you may want 70-80% humidity. you'll need several humidifiers because those a/c units are going to be trying to suck out every bit of moisture you put in. at the end of flower you may want your humidity at 30%, you'll remove the humidifiers and let you a/c keep it down.

and to answer your question, 1,800 ppm of CO2 will not harm your plants and will not harm you. it's just money down the drain. and FooDoo is right about wrestling those 70#ers.

also, beware of the CC nutrient chart you're looking at. if you've been reading everything at the farm you've seen that everyone is going much lighter on the nutes than any chart that i've seen recommends.
 
cephalopod

cephalopod

96
18
I have been aiming for a VPD value between 8-10 in flower if I can manage all my parameters. What do you find to be ideal range and is it a moving target as the weeks progress? When things start getting thick and sealed Ng co2 enriched 800-1100ppm 81-82F I start to chicken out and dry thing up a bit.
Might as well touch on the other pionts you listed.

Nutrients ive never used canna. But if using canna nutrients I WOULD NOT follow CCH20 ec chart . if I were you, I'd google canna stats calculator and get to the Angel fire page that has it. Plug in the values and weight of canna a+b into the calculator and work the ml/gal until you get the ideal n-p-k-mg of 100-100-200-60 but the leaner the better so I aim a little less. Happy trimming.

After that, mix it into a gal of your water and read ppm. that's your full ppm. Start veg at 25% and work your way up to 100% as the plants call for it.

66-68 is fine, dont need to aim for 65 all the time.

Mini split can take a sealed room with 100% humidity to 20% in about 5 minutes. You will 10000000052526827251% need a humidifier with lights on.

You will 100% need a dehumid with lights off. Mini splits don't run very long and the plants sweat like crazy. You'll have a pool in that room within 5 minutes of lights off

Also I'd go up to 82 degress with co2 instead of 78. 72+ at night since you don't want more than a 10 degree drop

I think there's more but I have to get back to trimming
 
S

stickynick

5
1
by the sounds of it you're in europe, which has different building materials than what is available in cali. with what we have available here, i frame in lumber, sheath in plywood, cover that with 5/8" drywall, mud, caulk, prime, and paint several coats with flat latex. it provides a sealed environment that will do alright with high humidity and is easy to clean. the plywood allows me to put a screw in anywhere and get structural support. a room built like this will last many years without a problem. you'll need to figure out how to achieve something similar with whatever materials and skills you have available. if you're building a room that is expected to be used for less or more time, you may make different design decisions.

re: exhaust . . . you will want to exhaust. both smell and insects can be addressed with filters, carbon filter for smell and a shroom filter for insects. for your size room i'd recommend a 12" duct exhaust and a 12" duct intake. a damper on each duct and everything on a timer to open her up and exhaust for 20-30 minutes at lights off. your plants will thank you for it.

generally, you can grow weed in low humidity and high heat, etc., but FooDoo and I have made recommendations to improve the room you've already planned. number of lights and how many splits is the easy part. figuring out how you're going to maintain the best VPD is what steps up the game.

"I can't find a single unit off the shelf with enough capacity to do the job." option #1: get two. option #2: build a smaller room.

if you have concrete floors with drainage you might opt for centrifugal humidifiers. during veg you may want 70-80% humidity. you'll need several humidifiers because those a/c units are going to be trying to suck out every bit of moisture you put in. at the end of flower you may want your humidity at 30%, you'll remove the humidifiers and let you a/c keep it down.

and to answer your question, 1,800 ppm of CO2 will not harm your plants and will not harm you. it's just money down the drain. and FooDoo is right about wrestling those 70#ers.

also, beware of the CC nutrient chart you're looking at. if you've been reading everything at the farm you've seen that everyone is going much lighter on the nutes than any chart that i've seen recommends.

Well after some serious thinking over the weekend I moved back to the original of refrigerator paneling for the inside of the room it's sterile , reflective & has a great R value. Also obtaining a perfect seal is very easy.

As for the tanks. No problem moving them around. Have a tank cart trolley & fork lift ain't no way I'm lifting them. Also already have the tanks full.
 
Papa

Papa

Supporter
2,474
163
the "refrigerator paneling" is a great solution . . . it's not easily available in the u.s., so we don't see it often. (it's poly-iso or rock wool insulation sandwiched between metal sheeting). it's also a great solution for sound insulation.
'sounds like you have the handling of those tanks down . . . i'd suggest finding a way to install them on the outside of your room where there may be room to wrestle them. it's nice to get as much of the equipment out of your room as possible. once that room blows up there's not going to be much room in there for anything besides plants.
 

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