Aqua Man planning organics (Questions)

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tomatoesarecooltoo

tomatoesarecooltoo

I wonder what is actually happening during the "cook" time recommended for supersoil mixes. Does it sit for a month because it takes that long to fully populate with wild bacteria and fungi and get tbe nutrient cycling going? Or is it just that the microbes break down insoluble food during that month?
Its one and the same, they are breaking down the food and storing it in microbial bodies that can be cycled. More mature soil can have a higher nutrient density without being hot because the nutrients are in the bodies of living things, not fully available but ready to become available.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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@MIMedGrower its always appreciated as @Dirtbag said.

The value of microbes can easily be seen with the use of enzymes. Like you mentioned dry amendments in soil need to be broken down so the microbial life is important. There will be some available nutrients in almost any soil you buy with them included as there are many types of bacteria that do this. Some aerobic and some anaerobic but both generally have the capability to break down all the required nutrients. Its not the bacteria so much that do this, its the enzymes they produce.

They only reason I am looking to add microbes is that I want specific ones. Many different type of say denitrifying bacteria live around thw world. The difference is the conditions they have adapted to be it anaerobic, salinity, PH etc. You have denitrifying bacteria that can thrive in freshwater but die in saltwater. So species is largely going to depend on the environment they come from. By adding specific species we have known microbes that do well and are most efficient for our typical conditions.

With the ferts im looking at they still need to be broken down. They can be brewed as a tea to be fed with a higher available amount of nutrients. This is because the tea allows a massive population of bacteria to form in a short period of time and they produce massive amounts of enzymes to break the oranics down fast.

This is why my plan is to scratch in the amendments and inoculate the coco. Then a light tea autofeed with small amounts added daily. There is no need for this but it can show how that teas can be done on a constant basis if they are done differently without going bad.

For anyone that wonder how long it takes for natural bacteria to form in a media that has no spores or bacteria already in it. Just look up nitrogen cycling for aquariums. You can test this yourself easily with a free ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kit from the pet store and pure ammonia from the supermarket. You can see exactly when the bacteria form that break ammonia down into nitrite form and then you can see when the bacteria form that break nitrites down into nitrates. Naturally it takes about 4-6 weeks for the bacteria to form to convert ammonia to nitrate in a media that is actually void of them to begin with.

Now any media used that has any type of compost in it will already have some various bacteria in and while they were not added per se but they are already in a sense inoculated.
 
Cracken

Cracken

wow, after reading all this my brain hurts. for myself I have a 120 Gallon barrel I fill with bails of peat, perlite, alfalfa meal, bone meal, blood meal, eggshells, a bunch of salmon bones and skin, potatoes shredded (uncooked), house and garden van de Zwaan roots excelurator, I mix well then lock the lid on for a couple months to brew. hold your nose after but it works well. I mix that with the soil outside and then only water all season and never have I had any issues. I dont know all the science behind it but the plants know what they like and they tell me they like what they got.

I do have a question for a science minded person. I was considering to use peroxide to dissolve eggshells so that it is a faster source of calcium then ph the liquid back to 6.5 and use on my indoor, is this possible? sorry Aquaman, not trying to jack your thread, but it about organic growing.. 🧐🤔
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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wow, after reading all this my brain hurts. for myself I have a 120 Gallon barrel I fill with bails of peat, perlite, alfalfa meal, bone meal, blood meal, eggshells, a bunch of salmon bones and skin, potatoes shredded (uncooked), house and garden van de Zwaan roots excelurator, I mix well then lock the lid on for a couple months to brew. hold your nose after but it works well. I mix that with the soil outside and then only water all season and never have I had any issues. I dont know all the science behind it but the plants know what they like and they tell me they like what they got.

I do have a question for a science minded person. I was considering to use peroxide to dissolve eggshells so that it is a faster source of calcium then ph the liquid back to 6.5 and use on my indoor, is this possible? sorry Aquaman, not trying to jack your thread, but it about organic growing.. 🧐🤔
No worries bro. Just my thought on this. You can use the h2o2 but I would do it seperate from anything else and then set out in the sun to help break the h2o2 down. UV reacts with h2o2 and kinda super changes it. So if you have a uv light that will work also. As it reacts its broken down

The reason I say this is because the enzymes that bacteria produce and the bacteria themselves will be destroyed by the h2o2 as its highly oxidative.
 
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Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Staff member
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wow, after reading all this my brain hurts. for myself I have a 120 Gallon barrel I fill with bails of peat, perlite, alfalfa meal, bone meal, blood meal, eggshells, a bunch of salmon bones and skin, potatoes shredded (uncooked), house and garden van de Zwaan roots excelurator, I mix well then lock the lid on for a couple months to brew. hold your nose after but it works well. I mix that with the soil outside and then only water all season and never have I had any issues. I dont know all the science behind it but the plants know what they like and they tell me they like what they got.

I do have a question for a science minded person. I was considering to use peroxide to dissolve eggshells so that it is a faster source of calcium then ph the liquid back to 6.5 and use on my indoor, is this possible? sorry Aquaman, not trying to jack your thread, but it about organic growing.. 🧐🤔
I also have no idea if the h2o2 will aid in the breakdown but it sure will disinfect them. I would think an acid like citric would be good for the task of breaking down the eggshells.
 
Cracken

Cracken

I also have no idea if the h2o2 will aid in the breakdown but it sure will disinfect them. I would think an acid like citric would be good for the task of breaking down the eggshells.
maybe I could try concentrated lemon juice, then PH. H2O2 is that water with extra O to make it more HO, lol
I get ideas but dont know the science.... I am just a Newfie contractor, if it comes to building or renovating, I can answer almost any question. plant science... not so much. growing is in my blood thou, my grandfather was a farmer, yes NFLD has some of those, lol ... I do really enjoy reading all the threads and learning. I feel like after a decade on here I might graduate and get a diploma in horticulture. lol
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Staff member
Supporter
maybe I could try concentrated lemon juice, then PH. H2O2 is that water with extra O to make it more HO, lol
I get ideas but dont know the science.... I am just a Newfie contractor, if it comes to building or renovating, I can answer almost any question. plant science... not so much. growing is in my blood thou, my grandfather was a farmer, yes NFLD has some of those, lol ... I do really enjoy reading all the threads and learning. I feel like after a decade on here I might graduate and get a diploma in horticulture. lol
H2o2 (hydrogen peroxide) is just the chemical name. Its an oxidizing chemical. Because of that it reacts with many things including light like UV. Thats why its in light proof bottles.

Just Googled this for an explanation on the chemistry for ya.

 
MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

@MIMedGrower its always appreciated as @Dirtbag said.

The value of microbes can easily be seen with the use of enzymes. Like you mentioned dry amendments in soil need to be broken down so the microbial life is important. There will be some available nutrients in almost any soil you buy with them included as there are many types of bacteria that do this. Some aerobic and some anaerobic but both generally have the capability to break down all the required nutrients. Its not the bacteria so much that do this, its the enzymes they produce.

They only reason I am looking to add microbes is that I want specific ones. Many different type of say denitrifying bacteria live around thw world. The difference is the conditions they have adapted to be it anaerobic, salinity, PH etc. You have denitrifying bacteria that can thrive in freshwater but die in saltwater. So species is largely going to depend on the environment they come from. By adding specific species we have known microbes that do well and are most efficient for our typical conditions.

With the ferts im looking at they still need to be broken down. They can be brewed as a tea to be fed with a higher available amount of nutrients. This is because the tea allows a massive population of bacteria to form in a short period of time and they produce massive amounts of enzymes to break the oranics down fast.

This is why my plan is to scratch in the amendments and inoculate the coco. Then a light tea autofeed with small amounts added daily. There is no need for this but it can show how that teas can be done on a constant basis if they are done differently without going bad.

For anyone that wonder how long it takes for natural bacteria to form in a media that has no spores or bacteria already in it. Just look up nitrogen cycling for aquariums. You can test this yourself easily with a free ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kit from the pet store and pure ammonia from the supermarket. You can see exactly when the bacteria form that break ammonia down into nitrite form and then you can see when the bacteria form that break nitrites down into nitrates. Naturally it takes about 4-6 weeks for the bacteria to form to convert ammonia to nitrate in a media that is actually void of them to begin with.

Now any media used that has any type of compost in it will already have some various bacteria in and while they were not added per se but they are already in a sense inoculated.

Just to add. Peat already has natural bacteria breaking down things. Even rhe nutrient charge in a sealed bale of pro mix is already being eaten by them in the bag.

there is no time needed to start the cycle it is immediate and already started. Even the “cooking” of super soil is not needed.

dont know if coco has microlife.
 
tomatoesarecooltoo

tomatoesarecooltoo

I do have a question for a science minded person. I was considering to use peroxide to dissolve eggshells so that it is a faster source of calcium then ph the liquid back to 6.5 and use on my indoor, is this possible? sorry Aquaman, not trying to jack your thread, but it about organic growing.. 🧐🤔
Brown rice vinegar
That will leave you calcium ions and carbonate ions in aqueous solution

Adding peroxide will give you Carbonic acid and Calcium Oxide (also called burnt lime).
2H2O2 + 2CaCO3 → 2H2CO3 + 2CaO + O2
 
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SwoleGrow

SwoleGrow

I wonder what is actually happening during the "cook" time recommended for supersoil mixes. Does it sit for a month because it takes that long to fully populate with wild bacteria and fungi and get tbe nutrient cycling going? Or is it just that the microbes break down insoluble food during that month?

If its the former, that would be a good reason for introducing exogenous microbes, just to jump start it.

I honestly am not sure about this but now I'm curious.

You can really be a bubble burster @MIMedGrower Lol, but I like that you're constantly making me look deeper into why I do some of the crazy things I do. I appreciate when someone is willing to call me or anyone out on their shit, because I'm well aware that everyone, myself included is susceptible to confirmation bias and believing in unverified science.

That said, Im pretty comfortable standing behind the decisions ive made for this grow. Some of it is possibly unnecessary, but maybe its helping. I do think the added microbes will help with breaking down the 4-4-4 faster. And EJ is about as fully organic as you can get in a bottle. No salts, not chemically chelated, and semi insoluble.. Its really only one foot out the door from true "water only" organics.

I'm rambling now lol. Smoking some Spiked Punch buddy brought me, its the same cut I've got. And it messes me up lol.
Watching a video with subcool teaching his super soil recipe and yes it’s for the microbes to do their work, but also for the ph to stabilize. Says it takes around six weeks from his experiences
 
Frankster

Frankster

Ok so the grow after next i will be doing an organic coco grow. Here is the plans/options im looking at in terms of complete nutrients. How I will be applying them is up in the air but likely a combination of half dose scratched in and a low dose tea with each watering autofeed with no runoff. Likely 2-3gal pots

Roots organic grow/bloom

Raw microbes grow/bloom.

Cal/mg will still be added.

I have never grown organics and while I understand nutrients im oblivious to the organic sources of each.

Has anyone used this and found it to be adequate?

Is there anything that may need to be added to it?

I'm not looking to make my own nutrients so my goal is to find a proven complete source of organic nutrients in as few different products as possible.
holy shit, aqua goes "half" dirt, I love it.
 
Frankster

Frankster

Watching a video with subcool teaching his super soil recipe and yes it’s for the microbes to do their work, but also for the ph to stabilize. Says it takes around six weeks from his experiences
bingo, microbes. That's why I've got a tote sitting below some of my plants full of worms, egg shells, coffee, weed fan leaves, tangerine peels, banana peels, ect. But only very high quality mulch, and red worms, doing there thing, much bacterial and fungus fungus amungus. I might ever go to a myco patch I know about and get some spawn for it, but I'm pretty sure it's getting good. I"m hoping for some extra CO2 from the activity also, as there's always a fan on it. It certainly doesn't have any bad smells so far, which is kinda surprising, actually.
Ok so the grow after next i will be doing an organic coco grow. Here is the plans/options im looking at in terms of complete nutrients. How I will be applying them is up in the air but likely a combination of half dose scratched in and a low dose tea with each watering autofeed with no runoff. Likely 2-3gal pots

Roots organic grow/bloom

Raw microbes grow/bloom.

Cal/mg will still be added.

I have never grown organics and while I understand nutrients im oblivious to the organic sources of each.

Has anyone used this and found it to be adequate?

Is there anything that may need to be added to it?

I'm not looking to make my own nutrients so my goal is to find a proven complete source of organic nutrients in as few different products as possible.
I would use kelp for nitrogen.
then I would add in all your amino's, microbes, myco, sugars, enzymes, whatever
Then I would use "basic" salts throughout the flower, as your microorganisms are going to have "acidic byproducts, nitrates" and use "basic" salts like dipotassium phosphate (7.2), Magnesium sulfate (5.5 to 6.5) liquid dolomite lime (6.5), Calcium Carbonate, potassium phosphate, just to name a few.

I would use your (base) salts as buffers and as counter balance, to the nitrification going on (in the root ball) in organics... If you've got a CO2 meter, you might even be able to measure or quantify it, possibly. Or perhaps, mount a ph probe in the root ball.

Either that or try and create a mixture from the beginning that has almost all ingredients already there, (true super soil) then just add at the end, as needed. Either way should work fine with coco.
 
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Frankster

Frankster

Meh, not sure why you're so hung up on it. Yes it is mostly usable, but again a large portion of it isn't. I can't say that about pbp.
pbp was good stuff, I'm just trying something different. Combined with the dry 4-4-4 id wager that about half my feed is coming from insoluble sources
And EJ is almost a 30 year old fert line. I certainly wouldn't call it a fad. It worked extremely well for me before.

Keep in mind the EJ is just supplementing the feed program in my grow anyway, the 4-4-4 is providing base nutrition.

the gaia green 4-4-4 is alo organic and its good stuff, its made from alfalfa meal, bone meal, blood meal, glacial rock dust, potassium sulphate, fossilised carbon complex, rock phosphate, greensand, kelp meal, and gypsum. Its pretty much what goes in a coots or tom hill mix, but its ready to use. Still needs healthy soil biology to make it work.
So what's the best "dry feed" you guys rave about Dirtbag? Cheapest, but good nitrate ratio's amounts please.
 
Flexnerb

Flexnerb

Actually they dont. I dont add any to ocean forest and it feeds my plants for 6 weeks with just water.

there is no proof that added microbes are needed at all. Its a retail product sold on bro science.
Microbes are needed big time indoors...lol...i get a better myco bite with it than without.

Another good profuct is enzymes. Malted barely is great! I use it on my veggie garden i see a big difference....lol...the giant pumpkin growers that compete use microbes....everyone should use microbes...just have to understand what ph is necessary to keep there numbers high....

Bio bizz is organic..E.U. certified.....problem eith the bio is i wish the label gave the %'s of nutes in it. It just gives npk...
 
Flexnerb

Flexnerb

I got an ph issue! Im at 7.3 for run off. Input ph 6.3. My ppms are down from 1300 to 850.

How can i get my ph down to the 6.4 i need it at. Need to do this over a week or so. Got yellowing leaves on the outter edges with green inners...lol
 
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