Aqua Man planning organics (Questions)

[Flexnerb]

wow, after reading all this my brain hurts. for myself I have a 120 Gallon barrel I fill with bails of peat, perlite, alfalfa meal, bone meal, blood meal, eggshells, a bunch of salmon bones and skin, potatoes shredded (uncooked), house and garden van de Zwaan roots excelurator, I mix well then lock the lid on for a couple months to brew. hold your nose after but it works well. I mix that with the soil outside and then only water all season and never have I had any issues. I dont know all the science behind it but the plants know what they like and they tell me they like what they got.

I do have a question for a science minded person. I was considering to use peroxide to dissolve eggshells so that it is a faster source of calcium then ph the liquid back to 6.5 and use on my indoor, is this possible? sorry Aquaman, not trying to jack your thread, but it about organic growing..

Soak half broken(font break them up just yet) eggshells in distilled water.

Peel the albumin from inside the shell.

Crush them up in your hand.

Then fry in a pan till half are still the original color and the other half brown.

Then grind them up into a fine powder

Add your apple cider vinegar to it..

Soak for 30 days in a mason jar shake it up a few times a day so the sediment doesnt rot

voila you have cal phos acetate

 

[Flexnerb]

No worries bro. Just my thought on this. You can use the h2o2 but I would do it seperate from anything else and then set out in the sun to help break the h2o2 down. UV reacts with h2o2 and kinda super changes it. So if you have a uv light that will work also. As it reacts its broken down

The reason I say this is because the enzymes that bacteria produce and the bacteria themselves will be destroyed by the h2o2 as its highly oxidative.

Catalase a yeast enzyme breaks down h202 in the human body...you sure h202 breaks down enzymes in the soil? I understood it as enzymes breakdown peroxidases and oxidases. My chemistry knowledge is quite low..

 

[Frankster]

No worries bro. Just my thought on this. You can use the h2o2 but I would do it seperate from anything else and then set out in the sun to help break the h2o2 down. UV reacts with h2o2 and kinda super changes it. So if you have a uv light that will work also. As it reacts its broken down

The reason I say this is because the enzymes that bacteria produce and the bacteria themselves will be destroyed by the h2o2 as its highly oxidative.

all great stuff man, trying to let some of this soak in, I'll be following this thread for sure, I"ve an extra UV light, so I should throw in the veg area as well, I think. Thanks about the fishtank stuff, I forgot about those nitrate test kits. I rasied african and south american cichlids many years ago, and remember those test. Have you ever done any auger isolation's agar? I used to do all that stuff in the micro lab, making dishes for all the exams, back in college. basic 400x-500x magnification is all that's really needed, actually.

It's not difficult to identify/isolate different species of bacteria. there is a whole scientific approach to doing so.

Nutrient Agar, Prepared Media Plates, 100 x 15 mm, Pack of 10

Media Name: Nutrient Agar Package: 100 x 15-mm Plates Size: Pack of 10 COA Available: No

www.carolina.com

Need some basics like some slides, and some basic stains.
identification though look, growth, stain, and strain. (morphology).
growing it out requires only isolation and the "clean technique" setup of the appropriate media to create a exponential growth run to completion, (complete with enzyme reactants) and then put into cool storage, it could be done even with "multiples" of various beneficial strains, I suppose. With some of them, i suspect the fresher, the more virulent they will be, far more eager beavers.

https://asm.org/Articles/2020/February/Identifying-Bacteria-Through-Look,-Growth,-Stain

,

I think multiple "applications" as you say is the best approach, and optimize condtions for continual renewal, because the tendency is toward completion, then dying off, that's what you DON'T want to happen. It's got to be well maintained conditions at the spawn sites, but big gains are possible when things line up.

roots are the foundation of everything, without them, transpiration means nothing. they "set" the stage, the "potential"

 

[Flexnerb]

No worries bro. Just my thought on this. You can use the h2o2 but I would do it seperate from anything else and then set out in the sun to help break the h2o2 down. UV reacts with h2o2 and kinda super changes it. So if you have a uv light that will work also. As it reacts its broken down

The reason I say this is because the enzymes that bacteria produce and the bacteria themselves will be destroyed by the h2o2 as its highly oxidative.

Some bateria produce peroxide too...that gives you a little bit of extra water and 02 for the roots as well

 

[Aqua Man]

I got an ph issue! Im at 7.3 for run off. Input ph 6.3. My ppms are down from 1300 to 850.

How can i get my ph down to the 6.4 i need it at. Need to do this over a week or so. Got yellowing leaves on the outter edges with green inners...lol

Add more ammonia based nitrogen is one I know of. Iron also but don't wanna go tox.

Nitrate will slowly raise soil ph and ammonia will lower. Of course the buffering around be adequate. In soil ammonium based nitrogen is much more beneficial in slightly higher amounts than say soiless or hydro.

 

[Aqua Man]

all great stuff man, trying to let some of this soak in, I'll be following this thread for sure, I"ve an extra UV light, so I should throw in the veg area as well, I think. Thanks about the fishtank stuff, I forgot about those nitrate test kits. I rasied african and south american cichlids many years ago, and remember those test. Have you ever done any auger isolation's agar? I used to do all that stuff in the micro lab, making dishes for all the exams, back in college. basic 400x-500x magnification is all that's really needed, actually.

It's not difficult to identify/isolate different species of bacteria. there is a whole scientific approach to doing so.

Nutrient Agar, Prepared Media Plates, 100 x 15 mm, Pack of 10

Media Name: Nutrient Agar Package: 100 x 15-mm Plates Size: Pack of 10 COA Available: No

www.carolina.com

Need some basics like some slides, and some basic stains.
identification though look, growth, stain, and strain. (morphology).
growing it out requires only isolation and the "clean technique" setup of the appropriate media to create a exponential growth run to completion, (complete with enzyme reactants) and then put into cool storage, it could be done even with "multiples" of various beneficial strains, I suppose. With some of them, i suspect the fresher, the more virulent they will be, far more eager beavers.

https://asm.org/Articles/2020/February/Identifying-Bacteria-Through-Look,-Growth,-Stain

,

I think multiple "applications" as you say is the best approach, and optimize condtions for continual renewal, because the tendency is toward completion, then dying off, that's what you DON'T want to happen. It's got to be well maintained conditions at the spawn sites, but big gains are possible when things line up.

roots are the foundation of everything, without them, transpiration means nothing. they "set" the stage, the "potential"

Nope never looked under a microscope. But easy enough to test of they are there.

 

[Aqua Man]

Catalase a yeast enzyme breaks down h202 in the human body...you sure h202 breaks down enzymes in the soil? I understood it as enzymes breakdown peroxidases and oxidases. My chemistry knowledge is quite low..

Many different bacteria that perform many different tasks. A very low dose of peroxide will be ok and some may tolerate it but others will not and at higher concentration it will wipe out all microbes. You cannot give a dose high enough to kill bad microbes without killing the good ones also. You could however kill everything and re inoculate but I would say not without some issues.

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

Catalase a yeast enzyme breaks down h202 in the human body...you sure h202 breaks down enzymes in the soil? I understood it as enzymes breakdown peroxidases and oxidases. My chemistry knowledge is quite low..

Yeah strong oxidizers real havoc in organic systems, thats why you need things like catalase.

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

Hey @Aqua Man since this thread has become so scientific and theoretical, I wanted to respond to your original post about these products.

Has anyone used this and found it to be adequate?

Never used this particular dry amendment mix, but the ingredients look very similar to the other dry amendment mixes out their. I am sure it will work just fine.

I have never grown organics and while I understand nutrients im oblivious to the organic sources of each.

Let me try to summarize the ingredients in the amendments you posted, the best I can. All of these numbers vary by brand and will not be exact. I am using down to earth products as a reference mostly. Just hoping to provide a little context.

Bat Guano,
High nitrogen bat guano will somewhere around 7-3-1,
fast release, also full of microbes.
There is also such thing is high phosphorus bat guano.

Fish Bone Meal
Around 4-12-0,
slow release.
Also lots of calcium and some micros.
Generally anything with bone you can assume has calcium and anything from the sea you can assume has micros.

Fish Meal
8-6-0,
Not sure how fast it breaks down, never used it personally

Langbeinite,
0-0-22,
Very slow release mined mineral

Kieserite,
Never heard of this stuff, but I just googled it and it seems to be a mined source of magnesium sulfate

Non Gmo Soybean Meal
7-1-2,
medium release
Plant ingredients will generally break down slower than blood or guanos, but much faster than bones or rocks.
Also plant ingredients will generally contain some growth hormones.

Feather Meal,
12-0-0
Slow release nitrogen, full of proteins.

Chicken Manure,
3-2-2
Very fast release complete nutrient, also full of microbes.

Kelp Meal,
1, .1, 2
Medium release
Full of micros from the sea. Has growth hormones from being a plant.

Dolomite.
Calcium and magnesium supplement, and ph buffer
Slow Release

Is there anything that may need to be added to it?

Maybe some diatomaceous earth for silica and bug prevention.
Maybe some rock dust for more micros.
Both optional IMO

 

[Aqua Man]

Hey @Aqua Man since this thread has become so scientific and theoretical, I wanted to respond to your original post about these products.



Never used this particular dry amendment mix, but the ingredients look very similar to the other dry amendment mixes out their. I am sure it will work just fine.



Let me try to summarize the ingredients in the amendments you posted, the best I can. All of these numbers vary by brand and will not be exact. I am using down to earth products as a reference mostly. Just hoping to provide a little context.

Bat Guano,
High nitrogen bat guano will somewhere around 7-3-1,
fast release, also full of microbes.
There is also such thing is high phosphorus bat guano.

Fish Bone Meal
Around 4-12-0,
slow release.
Also lots of calcium and some micros.
Generally anything with bone you can assume has calcium and anything from the sea you can assume has micros.

Fish Meal
8-6-0,
Not sure how fast it breaks down, never used it personally

Langbeinite,
0-0-22,
Very slow release mined mineral

Kieserite,
Never heard of this stuff, but I just googled it and it seems to be a mined source of magnesium sulfate

Non Gmo Soybean Meal
7-1-2,
medium release
Plant ingredients will generally break down slower than blood or guanos, but much faster than bones or rocks.
Also plant ingredients will generally contain some growth hormones.

Feather Meal,
12-0-0
Slow release nitrogen, full of proteins.

Chicken Manure,
3-2-2
Very fast release complete nutrient, also full of microbes.

Kelp Meal,
1, .1, 2
Medium release
Full of micros from the sea. Has growth hormones from being a plant.

Dolomite.
Calcium and magnesium supplement, and ph buffer
Slow Release



Maybe some diatomaceous earth for silica and bug prevention.
Maybe some rock dust for more micros.
Both optional IMO

Thank you for taking the time to answer bro. Appreciate the info.

 

[amekins]

Many different bacteria that perform many different tasks. A very low dose of peroxide will be ok and some may tolerate it but others will not and at higher concentration it will wipe out all microbes. You cannot give a dose high enough to kill bad microbes without killing the good ones also. You could however kill everything and re inoculate but I would say not without some issues.

It’s chemo for plants.

 

[amekins]

Hey @Aqua Man since this thread has become so scientific and theoretical, I wanted to respond to your original post about these products.



Never used this particular dry amendment mix, but the ingredients look very similar to the other dry amendment mixes out their. I am sure it will work just fine.



Let me try to summarize the ingredients in the amendments you posted, the best I can. All of these numbers vary by brand and will not be exact. I am using down to earth products as a reference mostly. Just hoping to provide a little context.

Bat Guano,
High nitrogen bat guano will somewhere around 7-3-1,
fast release, also full of microbes.
There is also such thing is high phosphorus bat guano.

Fish Bone Meal
Around 4-12-0,
slow release.
Also lots of calcium and some micros.
Generally anything with bone you can assume has calcium and anything from the sea you can assume has micros.

Fish Meal
8-6-0,
Not sure how fast it breaks down, never used it personally

Langbeinite,
0-0-22,
Very slow release mined mineral

Kieserite,
Never heard of this stuff, but I just googled it and it seems to be a mined source of magnesium sulfate

Non Gmo Soybean Meal
7-1-2,
medium release
Plant ingredients will generally break down slower than blood or guanos, but much faster than bones or rocks.
Also plant ingredients will generally contain some growth hormones.

Feather Meal,
12-0-0
Slow release nitrogen, full of proteins.

Chicken Manure,
3-2-2
Very fast release complete nutrient, also full of microbes.

Kelp Meal,
1, .1, 2
Medium release
Full of micros from the sea. Has growth hormones from being a plant.

Dolomite.
Calcium and magnesium supplement, and ph buffer
Slow Release



Maybe some diatomaceous earth for silica and bug prevention.
Maybe some rock dust for more micros.
Both optional IMO

Bookmarked this one.

 

[beluga]

all great stuff man, trying to let some of this soak in, I'll be following this thread for sure, I"ve an extra UV light, so I should throw in the veg area as well, I think. Thanks about the fishtank stuff, I forgot about those nitrate test kits. I rasied african and south american cichlids many years ago, and remember those test. Have you ever done any auger isolation's agar? I used to do all that stuff in the micro lab, making dishes for all the exams, back in college. basic 400x-500x magnification is all that's really needed, actually.

It's not difficult to identify/isolate different species of bacteria. there is a whole scientific approach to doing so.

Nutrient Agar, Prepared Media Plates, 100 x 15 mm, Pack of 10

Media Name: Nutrient Agar Package: 100 x 15-mm Plates Size: Pack of 10 COA Available: No

www.carolina.com

Need some basics like some slides, and some basic stains.
identification though look, growth, stain, and strain. (morphology).
growing it out requires only isolation and the "clean technique" setup of the appropriate media to create a exponential growth run to completion, (complete with enzyme reactants) and then put into cool storage, it could be done even with "multiples" of various beneficial strains, I suppose. With some of them, i suspect the fresher, the more virulent they will be, far more eager beavers.

https://asm.org/Articles/2020/February/Identifying-Bacteria-Through-Look,-Growth,-Stain

,

I think multiple "applications" as you say is the best approach, and optimize condtions for continual renewal, because the tendency is toward completion, then dying off, that's what you DON'T want to happen. It's got to be well maintained conditions at the spawn sites, but big gains are possible when things line up.

roots are the foundation of everything, without them, transpiration means nothing. they "set" the stage, the "potential"

I wanted a reason to hop in here and this is the one that hooked me.

Got into a discussion about molasses use and surmised that a lot of the commercial molasses amendments probably had beneficial cultures added so to not bloom the microbiome the wrong way.

I have all the cell culturing stuff from mushroom cultivation... and a high school microscope that should suffice... now I just need some reference material on bacterium...

 

[amekins]

I wanted a reason to hop in here and this is the one that hooked me.

Got into a discussion about molasses use and surmised that a lot of the commercial molasses amendments probably had beneficial cultures added so to not bloom the microbiome the wrong way.

I have all the cell culturing stuff from mushroom cultivation... and a high school microscope that should suffice... now I just need some reference material on bacterium...

All you peeps growing shrooms. I’m jealous. That will definitely not happen here anytime soon.

 

[Frankster]

Add more ammonia based nitrogen is one I know of. Iron also but don't wanna go tox.

Nitrate will slowly raise soil ph and ammonia will lower. Of course the buffering around be adequate. In soil ammonium based nitrogen is much more beneficial in slightly higher amounts than say soiless or hydro.

Whatever you do, bring it down slowly aqua. Maybe a loading dose is fine, but once you start getting into the zone just be deliberate about it.

You could also use something like humics to lower it, or other "organic" acids. Citric acids, Growth impact and beneficial microbes, hormones, auxins, glibberillins, cytokininnins, all acidic things to consider, kelp. Even salicylic acids in minute doses.

But be careful, because their all potent in their own rights.

 

[Frankster]

Nope never looked under a microscope. But easy enough to test of they are there.

Do you get the dipstick kind of test, or a droplet type?
Something like this one?

NT Labs Mini Test Kit 120 Tests For Freshwater & Tropical Aquariums Fish Tank 733809001472 | eBay

NT Labs Aquarium Water Mini Test is perfect for quick water testing on your aquariums. This test kit will test ph, Ammonia & Nitrite. These are the three main problems in aquariums and with these tests you will be able to find out what your water quality is in your tank.

www.ebay.com

 

[Frankster]

Finally, I got this light up, how long can I run it? how my position? Most of my later stages are on one side there.

I really like this unit, because I can aim the beam, and target plants with more rays than others. It dials the beam. I can feel it getting sticker all ready...

 

[Aqua Man]

Finally, I got this light up, how long can I run it? how my position? Most of my later stages are on one side there.

I really like this unit, because I can aim the beam, and target plants with more rays than others. It dials the beam. I can feel it getting sticker all ready...

That the aggro max? I'm gonna start mine about 2-5 min every hour for the 12 hr light cycle. Probably 2 to be safe and see after a day how they respond. Just keep bumping until I hot around 15 min each hour if I can get that high.

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

I took a few rosin dabs so don't judge me please
but I wanted to share my understanding of why foul manure, is more of a concentrated nutrient, while cow manure is more of a nutritious base
its because birds have no seperation between their urinary tract and their bowel movements
essentially chicken shit (or any bird shit)
is also bird piss
so of course it has more ammonium and nitrates and stuff
again I am high so take what you want from this post

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

Hey @Aqua Man any more updates on this plan? I am thinking about doing something similar next round but I am not decided. Soil is what I am comfortable with but I want to push myself, plus I will already have drip going by then.

I leaning towards liquid plant based nutrients to cut down on the smell and some of the slimy proteins in the fish based nutrients. Currently looking into biobizz, vegamatrix, and general organics biothrive. General organics seems like the best value, but also owned by demons so idk.