Avid / Abamectin residual

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max_well

Avid / Abamectin residual

Motivated by a problem I've had with broad/cyclamen mites, I've been researching the toxicity and concerns with using Avid, and have some confusion. It seems that Avid is only approved for use in ornamentals, however Agrimek, which has the same active compound (Abamectin, which is the same as Avermectin), is approved on a huge range of vegetables and crops, from cotton all the way to kumquat, up to 1 week before harvest.
http://www.syngentacropprotection.c...?type=curcrop&prdid=663&ProdNM=Agrimek 0.15EC
Some of this confusion discussed here:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tompests/msg07132539866.html?10
Anyone have insight here? Seems like there is a real staunch opposition to using this into flower in our growing community, and paranoia about it's lingering presence in our medicine; however, I've never heard too many people give pause before eating a non-organic burrito about the chance of the tomatoes, lettuce, cilantro, etc having been treated up to a week before harvest...
They are dropping this from planes into our orange juice!
http://www.syngentacropprotection.com/news_releases/news.aspx?id=93696
I'm certainly not suggesting this is a good thing!, just wondering about the pick-and-choosiness of when to be concerned about the health risks associated with this , as I've never hesitated to eat a good looking orange.
I've also read that Abamectin, when in the thin film of sprayed application on a plant leaf, has half life of 4-6 hours ..
( http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/abamectin-ext.html )
and in case your curious about No Pest Strips:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxfaqs/tf.asp?id=596&tid=111
 
P

paulycali

To much to read. I would never i mean never apply avid when your plants are flowering. Thats a big no no. Vegatative state only. No spraying during flowering unless you want to inhale extremely harmful chemicals. Great stuff to use but never during flowering

Good luck
 
M

max_well

Organic vegetables. If your really a health nut. But I guess they even use organic pesticides. Plus your suppose to thoroughly wash your veggies with a diluted wash before you use them. Most people don't do that cause they simply don't care what they put in there bodies. That is there choice.

Putting avid on a flowering plant and having people smoke it without knowing is pretty dick in my book. I'm not trying to bash you at all, I'd just have to agree with pauli, avid on flowering plants is a big NO NO.

P.S. I don't care what you put on asparagus and artichokes because I'll still eat the shit out of them.
I've never personally used Avid past early veg.. I'm just curious why there seems to be such a strong mentality about how this leaves a toxic residue in our medicine if used in flower, but we are sending our kids to eat school lunch that could potentially contain lettuce which was legally treated with abamectin up to 7 days before harvest... Smoking it worse than consuming residual, I don't know? Btw, the labeling allows for use on crops of hops up to 28 days before harvest, which may be the closest mainstream crop to compare to. In a perfect world we could all be eating and smoking organic all the time, but looking at the list of crops approved for abamectin use, you have to think that 99% of dishes at 99% of restaurants have an ingredient that is on the list...
 
leadsled

leadsled

GrowRU
dont try and justify fucking people up purposely

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Avid is a mite pesticide developed for ornamentals and Christmas trees. It is systemic which means that it works by lingering around inside the plant for a long time. It may be very affective; however it is not developed for use with any food crops. Furthermore, Avid has been known to cause illness in medical marijuana patients. It is known to adversely affect animals and fish according to the Manufacturers Warning Label. This pesticide is very dangerous to work with and be exposed to. Due to the nature of this you are urged to not use this on your medicine. No amount of flushing will remove this substance.

According to the directions Avid has a 28 day residual, try to leave double that time for it to clear of the plant. Being systemic who know if it is ever gone....
[/FONT]
 
leadsled

leadsled

GrowRU
I've never personally used Avid past early veg.. I'm just curious why there seems to be such a strong mentality about how this leaves a toxic residue in our medicine if used in flower, but we are sending our kids to eat school lunch that could potentially contain lettuce which was legally treated with abamectin up to 7 days before harvest... Smoking it worse than consuming residual, I don't know? Btw, the labeling allows for use on crops of hops up to 28 days before harvest, which may be the closest mainstream crop to compare to. In a perfect world we could all be eating and smoking organic all the time, but looking at the list of crops approved for abamectin use, you have to think that 99% of dishes at 99% of restaurants have an ingredient that is on the list...
My understanding it that smoking is alot worse than eating. In addition, not like you wash off your buds with soap before smoking them.

Trimmers have gotten cancer from avid sprayed plants
Labs can detect it, imho that should be enough.
 
girlwondergrows

girlwondergrows

In my opinion there is too little information to make an informed decision, so I err on the side of caution. As far as I know there is no research to backup the claim that smoking Abamectin poses a greater health risk than eating it. It seems logical but lots of BS can seem logical. Also, I have to assume that some percentage of the smoking population is getting medicine from a source that is spraying avid during flower as this is not real uncommon in big commercial gardens. It seems like that would have an effect on cancer rates among smokers which could have been detected in large scale studies of long term smokers.

As for labs, they are testing for metabolites of Abamectin as far as I understand. Which leads me to an important question:

Where did you get that info MendoCruz? I've been looking for that information for a while, even asked lab reps in person and was unable to get a straight answer. Can you please elaborate?

The labs can't find any traces past 45 days out. That's with gas chromatography.
 
sanvanalona

sanvanalona

I heard the very same thing, but the source came from the same lab out of Santa Cruz. I am going to the med cup this weekend in L.A. and will be testing some nugs at a different lab, while I don't use Avid, I do use floramite and figure that it is about equal in toxicity. Does anyone have any other lab info on the residual toxicity of avid?
 
M

max_well

My GM Talk to the lead lab tech/owner at SC Labs. He stated that past 45 days, Avid, Floramite and eagle 20 show no traces.
Thanks for this.. Nice to get information based on real testing, and not hearsay. Gas chromatography doesn't lie.
I think people get confused when they hear of the acute dangers of spraying / applying avid and such pesticides without proper gear / protocol, and that results in some misconception about the toxicity of residuals.

From Cornell Univ. link in first post: "Abamectin is subject to rapid degradation when present as a thin film, as on treated leaf surfaces. Under laboratory conditions and in the presence of light, its half-life as a thin film was 4 to 6 hours "),

This means that after 40 days (in 12-12 lighting), there is max of ~10^-24 of the original active amount; this is less than the ratio of 1 drop (~.05 mL) in the entire volume of all the water on earth (~ 3 * 10^20 gallons).
 
girlwondergrows

girlwondergrows

Which brings up a whole other problem! Homeopathic avid! It could actually attract mites!

^That is a joke.

Thank you for the great info, I might make it to the cup too, gonna be in LA on sat. I'll have to ask around about this and report back.
 
Jolly Mon

Jolly Mon

I personally know of breeders from the farm that use Avid up to 5 weeks into flowering and they have a reputation for having the bomb meds. They use Steephill labs to do their testing. After being applyed @ 5 weeks and havested @ week 9 there was no trace of Avid in Steephills testing. You can imagine what the breeders did with that info, now all their crops are treated with avid. I don't use it myself but it is widespread through out the community. If you were concerned about health risk smoking all together is bad for the respitory system so we are all splitting hairs.

" If the thunder don't get you then the lightning will."
 
girlwondergrows

girlwondergrows

^^That's a specious argument. You have to accept some risk when using this medicine, you don't have to accept the risk of smoking pesticides.

I do appreciate the information, though. It's a bitch because those of us trying to grow ethically have to compete with bullshit like that. It is no doubt the cheaper easier way to run, but I take care of people with cancer. That kind of corner cutting just isn't acceptable.
 
SpiderK

SpiderK

dont try and justify fucking people up purposely

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Avid is a mite pesticide developed for ornamentals and Christmas trees. It is systemic which means that it works by lingering around inside the plant for a long time. It may be very affective; however it is not developed for use with any food crops. Furthermore, Avid has been known to cause illness in medical marijuana patients. It is known to adversely affect animals and fish according to the Manufacturers Warning Label. This pesticide is very dangerous to work with and be exposed to. Due to the nature of this you are urged to not use this on your medicine. No amount of flushing will remove this substance.

According to the directions Avid has a 28 day residual, try to leave double that time for it to clear of the plant. Being systemic who know if it is ever gone....
[/FONT]

:eek:
 
SpiderK

SpiderK

My understanding it that smoking is alot worse than eating. In addition, not like you wash off your buds with soap before smoking them.

Trimmers have gotten cancer from avid sprayed plants
Labs can detect it, imho that should be enough.
Trimmers have gotten cancer from avid sprayed plants
Labs can detect it, imho that should be enough.

:eek:
 
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