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Bayer 3 in 1 Tree and Shrub, nitrogen toxicity, help!

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Hi all, it has been a while!

I'm using the Bayer Tree and Shrub. I followed the directions for 2.67 oz per gallon of spray and sprayed my veg plants, and my plants that were 1 day into flower. It has a mild amount of imidacloprid, so I am certain it will flush by end of flower.

My problem is, I usually use less, maybe 2oz per gallon, and this time, I forgot and used to bottle labeled dosage. However, I'm noticing nitrogen toxicity and curling in both sets of plants. The imid is causing major nitrogen uptake, and it is worrying the hell out of me. The flowering plants have been in flower now for about 1 week, and I'm super worried about the stress they are encountering.

This is really unfortunate because they were super healthy otherwise. I've been spraying nitrozime in order to help with stress, but it doesn't seem to help a ton. I've also watered through with PbP Bloom at a low level to balance the nutrients available, but otherwise I'm at a bit of a loss.

Does anyone have any suggestions that I can work on to help them recover faster? Nitrogen toxicity really sucks, and most of the time it takes a couple weeks of rebound -- time that I don't really have during flower. Any ideas would be very much appreciated.
 
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Nitrogen toxicity sucks. Since you are in flower your N should be reduced drastically. Really the only next thing you can do is flush the plants with plain water and hope they recoup in the next week or two.
 
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Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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As far as imid goes, IIRC, it's not the percentage that matters with regard to persistence in plant tissues, you've started a clock no matter what percentage or dosing rate you've used. And as far as I recall, that clock is about 60 days minimum.

I can't recommend using less than the recommended dose of such a product because you're greatly increasing the chances of selecting out for resistance, GREATLY. You really don't want to do that, and neither do the rest of us.

I'm assuming you're treating for root aphids, and part of dealing with them is chasing phantom deficiencies, very odd appearance, a complete lack of vigor and really, the plants are just going to suck. If not... I'm not sure why you'd need to use something like an imid mix, but when I tried it, it was specifically for RAs, it didn't work, I did not see any kind of toxicity, I saw burning, LOTS of it, and the plants seemed to suffer everything under the sun, especially very problematic PM.

The only method I know and have used consistently to fix and/or remove available N is to dose with a rather high rate of some sort of sugar, which causes a bacterial bloom, which subsequently temporarily fixes N. I'd say the fix/unavailability lasts for about 2 weeks. This method only works if you've got good soil biota populations, though.
 
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Thanks a lot for the reply everyone. Seamaiden, I was using the bayer 3 in 1 as an all around plant health before flower type of deal. I got tired of nuking with merit 75 when I didn't have pests and more wanted a light systemic as a preventative.

I've been babying the hell out of them, and I believe what happened was an extreme nute uptake/toxicity which could have lead to burn. I've been foliar feeding and today, I remembered I had the DM Saturator product. I used that and 2ml of True Blooms from Beneficial Biologics and I immediately noticed reduction in interveinal chlorosis and overall reduction in dark green and increase in green where there was slight yellowing on the veins. I also flushed with PGP Bloom and molasses, at a low dosage. It looks like the stress may cause *some* problems, but a few more foliar feeds and I should be okay. What I am truly surprised by is how effective Saturator is compared to Cocowet and dish soap. Whatever is the surfactant in that product, it works incredibly well.

Still really bummed that this preventative measure is going to cost me yield. Argh, my new room just keeps having problems.
 
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Thanks a lot for the reply everyone. Seamaiden, I was using the bayer 3 in 1 as an all around plant health before flower type of deal. I got tired of nuking with merit 75 when I didn't have pests and more wanted a light systemic as a preventative.

I've been babying the hell out of them, and I believe what happened was an extreme nute uptake/toxicity which could have lead to burn. I've been foliar feeding and today, I remembered I had the DM Saturator product. I used that and 2ml of True Blooms from Beneficial Biologics and I immediately noticed reduction in interveinal chlorosis and overall reduction in dark green and increase in green where there was slight yellowing on the veins. I also flushed with PGP Bloom and molasses, at a low dosage. It looks like the stress may cause *some* problems, but a few more foliar feeds and I should be okay. What I am truly surprised by is how effective Saturator is compared to Cocowet and dish soap. Whatever is the surfactant in that product, it works incredibly well.

Still really bummed that this preventative measure is going to cost me yield. Argh, my new room just keeps having problems.
Crazy man I was in the same situation with a new room. We get over zealous and excited and tend to baby the plants to much. Sometimes you have to just let it flowwwww. I guess my biggest piece of advice for you in the future is remember that with nutes it is always good to under do it as opposed to over doing it. More is not better in this case. Good luck in the future man just get over this little speed bump you'll be aight!
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,629
638
Thanks a lot for the reply everyone. Seamaiden, I was using the bayer 3 in 1 as an all around plant health before flower type of deal. I got tired of nuking with merit 75 when I didn't have pests and more wanted a light systemic as a preventative.

I've been babying the hell out of them, and I believe what happened was an extreme nute uptake/toxicity which could have lead to burn. I've been foliar feeding and today, I remembered I had the DM Saturator product. I used that and 2ml of True Blooms from Beneficial Biologics and I immediately noticed reduction in interveinal chlorosis and overall reduction in dark green and increase in green where there was slight yellowing on the veins. I also flushed with PGP Bloom and molasses, at a low dosage. It looks like the stress may cause *some* problems, but a few more foliar feeds and I should be okay. What I am truly surprised by is how effective Saturator is compared to Cocowet and dish soap. Whatever is the surfactant in that product, it works incredibly well.

Still really bummed that this preventative measure is going to cost me yield. Argh, my new room just keeps having problems.
I get what you're trying to do, but you do realize that you're selecting out hard for resistance when you continually use something like imidacloprid, right? Just trying to give all a heads up on that issue, as it's well known across many species of pests.
 
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Thanks Seamaiden. The bayer 3 in 1 is just part of my rotation. I'm doing my best to not create any resistant bugs, but I appreciate the heads up.
 

xX Kid Twist Xx

Premium Member
Supporter
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use the spectrcide with it alrterate days and go through your veg and chuck out anything with roots. take all the cuts you will need plus soem for new moms and move the trays to a differnt room. go through that room and clean it out well. if you smoke a small amount of pesticide that may be in the plant one time shouldnt be a big deal, but like seamaiden was saying its systemic and stays in the plant up to 8 weeks. better to fix the problem once and for all then have to constintly treat for it.
 
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Thanks Kid, however, I think there was some confusion. I don't have any bugs, this was just a pre flower spray in case some came along. I'm on the ground floor and sometimes they just waltz in. The last thing I had was mites, and all plants in that session were culled, the rooms were cleaned, and then bombed. This was a post neem, preflower treatment that wasn't necessary and I paid the price. I appreciate the attention though.

Now, if anyone has any secrets to getting over nitrogen toxicity due to imid, well, I'm still battling that.
 
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It is possible to quickly halt nitrogen toxicity, if the toxicity is from excess in the soil. But since you foliar sprayed I am not sure if it would work in your case....
 

ShroomKing

Best of luck. Peace
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263
It is possible to quickly halt nitrogen toxicity, if the toxicity is from excess in the soil. But since you foliar sprayed I am not sure if it would work in your case....
Can you share your N Toxicity fix please. I've had it before and could only control it by flushing.
 
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It can be done using a process called 'nitrate-dependent alleviation of ammonium toxicity.' Top dress with 1/2 tablespoon per gallon of media with gypsum (I do 1 cup per 30 gallons) and water in thoroughly. Gypsum facilitates the leaching of ammonium by binding the ammonium to the sulfate in the gypsum, making it highly soluble, and able to flush out of the media more easily. Follow up within 24 hours (2 hours is is supposedly ideal) with a 50 PPM per gallon (1 gram per gallon) solution of Calcium Nitrate. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to apply nitrogen to correct nitrogen burn but the science behind it is sound. The nitrate nitrogen replaces the excess ammonium nitrogen at the cation exchange sites in the soil, alleviating symptoms.

Further reading:
http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/3/577.abstract
http://www.ballpublishing.com/growertalks/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=18726
 
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I've used Bayer Tree & Shrub in the past and never had any issues. ..ever.
So i'm beginning to believe that something else here is the culprit.

Fwiw, Just add the Bayer T&S to your nutrients, mix well, and water your plants like usual.

45ml per gallon!

No need for a foliar since it is a systemic anyways…..just water it in.
 
I have been a big fan of using a high microbial content compost/fertilizer tea with yucca and a well digested form of bone like what is found in the nectar products. If you are dealing with root aphids and are not doing a probiotic and beneficial organism base I would suggest a biological like mycontrol watered in as it will break down the exoskeleton of the critters. The higher the microbial concentration the quicker it will break down the lockout. BTW please don't use Bayer products. They are the reason most of our bees are dying. For them and your own health for that matter.
 
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Phenotyper, One question for you...Are you spraying when the lights are on? Sorry I wasn't sure.
Pheno - Limelight.Bx is exactly RIGHT! DO NOT use Bayer products. I will expand more on that below.
Second, don't ever trust a corporation to tell you their rate of feeding. You will certainly learn the hard way! There obnoxious feeding programs will all burn and become toxic at their recommended rate, or kill, your plants - especially herbs. This plant is easy to grow, but, remember plants are autotroph's, meaning they create their own food through photosynthesis which is a chemical process. The plant doesn't eat like us and digest in our belly, they have to break down elements they can uptake through a chemical process at root tips and cell walls. So feed your plants with slow chemical process in mind, and you will be more careful, I know. The companies out there want you to buy more and more, right? Cut the dosages by as much as 50-75% and the plants will get more than enough.

On Bayer and other dangerous and poisonous products - I am almost certain it is a Monsanto (mon-satan) product. Regrdless, the product should not belong in a grow room. They are killing bees and US!! This is not hype or hysteria...this is a very serious topic indeed. Aside from your case, I lost my entire outdoor crop because (little to my knowledge) I purchased what I thought was local organic soil (VERMIFIRE:puke2::opps:), and turned out the CO. sold out to foxfarm...Monsatan. FACT - Monsatan is trying to complicate, destroy, poison, and take over the cannabis industry and make a simple thing complicated and demand more and more products and grow environment requirements that are unnecessary. It is there way of entering into the market, controlling it, before it is legal. So by, purchasing products such as Bayer, which is toxic to plants, and the ecosystem, you support the oligopoly Monsanto is trying to create within OUR industry, and at the same time, threaten our very own sustainability on this planet. Please educate yourself with not only what you feed your plants, but what you buy and spray around your nervous system and your family! I am not coming from a place of malice or negativity, but I will be the light on this subject any way I can to bring a healthier growing environment for us all and the earth. Keep your room clean, don't show it off to a mite bus (friends), cut your nutz by 75% (also your soil's bio-life will thank you), keep enzymes in the routine, use mostly organic, and become more informed on nutrients you feed your medicine.

Great peace of advice and many ways to achieve better than stellar results using organic/more natural products.
Limlight.BX
I have been a big fan of using a high microbial content compost/fertilizer tea with yucca and a well digested form of bone like what is found in the nectar products.
This is medical grade cannabis we are talking about right? Don't over think it. I don't medicate with others cannabis...most are unaware of what they are actually medicating/smoking from all the pesticides and synthetic nutz made from money hungry companies who could care less if you end up sick from smoking poison...Stay positive but informed! Peace:fire:
 
Last edited:

jumpincactus

Premium Member
Supporter
11,628
438
It can be done using a process called 'nitrate-dependent alleviation of ammonium toxicity.' Top dress with 1/2 tablespoon per gallon of media with gypsum (I do 1 cup per 30 gallons) and water in thoroughly. Gypsum facilitates the leaching of ammonium by binding the ammonium to the sulfate in the gypsum, making it highly soluble, and able to flush out of the media more easily. Follow up within 24 hours (2 hours is is supposedly ideal) with a 50 PPM per gallon (1 gram per gallon) solution of Calcium Nitrate. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to apply nitrogen to correct nitrogen burn but the science behind it is sound. The nitrate nitrogen replaces the excess ammonium nitrogen at the cation exchange sites in the soil, alleviating symptoms.

Further reading:
http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/3/577.abstract
http://www.ballpublishing.com/growertalks/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=18726
Great info @Blaze This method most definitely works. And like you said the science stands up to the theory.

However, I am wondering if the toxicity is due to foliar feeding would a soil based fix alleviate the immediate symptoms associated with foliar over dose?? Or would the OP have to wait for a period of time for the lower N values to be taken up via the rhizoshpere? I'm with @Seamaiden on this your info is sticky worthy.
 
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If the overdose is from foliar, then no, I don't think the method I posted would help at all. When you foliar feed the nutrients are absorbed thru the leaves rather than the soil, so applying gypsum and calcium nitrate wouldn't do much. I am not aware of any quick fixes for a foliar over dose of N, or anything else for that matter.

Maybe you could foliar with a nutrient that is antagonistic to nitrogen in order to lock the excess N out? That is just an off-the-top-of-my-head- guess though, I have no idea if that would really work. You might just burn your plants even more.
 
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Nitrogen toxicity sucks. Since you are in flower your N should be reduced drastically. Really the only next thing you can do is flush the plants with plain water and hope they recoup in the next week or two.
Also try just spraying with plain water with maybe some Calmag to help with the N uptake.
 

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