Big plants, little buds

[SmokeyJoe710]

So it's nearing the end of week 7 of flower for these super lemon haze girls and it seems like i've been waiting forever for this "swell" of the buds to come on. The strain is listed as a 10 week finisher, but the majority of the buds look more like week 3 stage at this point and im starting to worry that there is something wrong. With only two weeks left before flush I doubt there is much I can do to help them at this point, but I'd like to know what exactly went wrong. I have another tent running the exact same DIY under current system, with the same nutes, just a different strain(pineapple express) and it's doing much better and looking like it's going to yield almost double what this tent has. Here's the history: vegged for 6 weeks with hardly any problems, ppm dropped consistently, they drank like crazy, and grew into huge plants(huge in my experience). The stalks of most of the girls are nearing 5" in circumference. I topped each one a couple of times and scrogged them as best I could. Being my first time with scrogging, I ended up with a fairly uneven canopy, which I think may be a contributing factor to the small buds. I also believe high temps early in flower(78-82) caused a lot of stretch which can be seen in the pics. I also defoliated a good portion of the fan leaves through late veg and early flower, finally lollipopping the entire bottom third of the plant. The strain seemed to be touchy with nitrogen, and I had what looked to me to be a nitrogen toxicity late in veg. I lightened up the nutes and things went back to normal for a couple weeks.

Early in flower, around week 3 I think, they starting to develop the same clawing leaves as earlier in veg, indicating another nitrogen tox. I flushed for 48 hours with plain ro, and the leaves improved slightly. As flowering continued I was never able to get control of this clawing issue, and some of the leaves are now standing straight upwards, especially the ones near the light, while some of the lower ones are still clawing downwards. The light is 1000w and I know it's closer than the recommended two feet, it's more like less than a foot from the tallest buds in reality. I'm in a tent and unfortunately with the light mover I can't raise it any higher. I'll attach pics of this issue. Along with this, I have seen twisted tips on new leaf growth within the buds, very small buds, amber pistils, and deformed fan leaf growth. The room conditions could also be a factor, the tents are in a room in a cool basement (60-65F) I have had the main doors of the tent open in an effort to keep humidity down, as well as the the entrance and exit door of the room itself open with a large fan pushing air out one door and pulling in from the other. This effect has cool air coming into the tents keeping the room itself around 65-70F, the tent temps at 70-75F, and the canopy temps slightly below 80F. Could this variation in temps at different parts of the plants cause growth issues?

My main issue which i'm sure is every growers main issue, is the yield. The buds are tiny, some not even larger than my thumbnail, i'm ultimately trying to figure out if it is the overall lack of light(1000w on light mover in 4x8 tent), nitrogen tox, canopy height, temps, or even the ph. I do not trust my ph meter at all(Hanna ppm/ph combo grocheck) the thing doesn't seem to hold a calibration whatsoever and reads a different ph every time I attempt to calibrate. I've been double checking it with the old dropper and water sample method but you can only be so accurate with that.

I also forgot to mention the nutrients, in flower it seems like I was never able to make it to the suggested ppm from Current Culture. I maxed at only 600 or so and the last two weeks I saw ppm rise and had to remove and dilute some of the solution to bring it down. I got some minor tip burn, but never let it do any major damage. I'm overwhelmed with all the different factors that could lead to these super small buds. I know it's a long thread and I thank anybody early who has the patience to take on this problem with me. Also forgot to mention, some of the larger buds have swollen calyxes with amber pistils, I don't really know much about hermies or pollination so I attached a pic just to verify nothings wrong. Like i said, I think it's too late to help this group but let me know what I should change to make this not happen again.

Main Factors:
Not enough light?
Nitrogen Toxicity?
Ph problems?
Heat Stress?
Cool air in room?

Hydro Growers:
1. Are you growing from seed or clones? Seed - feminized
2. How old are your plants? 13 Weeks (6 veg, 7 flower) 10 week strain
3. How tall are your plants? 24" - 36"
4. What type of hydro system are you using? RDWC DIY under current
5. What brand/type of nutrients are you using? Cultured Solutions Full Line
6. What is the Ph of your nutrient solution? 5.6-6.0
7. What is the PPM/EC of your tap water? Using RO ppm:14
8. What is the PPM/EC of your nutrient solution? 550/1.1
9. What is the temperature of your nutrient solution? 65-69 F
10. Does your PPM/EC show a rise or fall when you do your daily PPM check? About 10ppm drop daily
11. Does your pH show a rise or fall when you do your daily check? Erratic depending on nutrient temp but overall rise of .1 or so daily
12. Do you foliar feed or spray your plants with anything? No
13. What kind of lights do you use and how many watts combined? (HPS, MH, fluorescent, halogen, incandescent "plant lights") 1000W ventilated HPS on light mover
14. How close are your lights to the plants? 1ft
15. What size is your grow space in square feet? 8x4
16. What is the temperature and humidity in your grow space? 78 F canopy - 74 F room / 55% Rh
17. Have you noticed any insect activity in your grow space? Occasional fly or small flying bug
18. How much experience do you have growing? New to hydro, one soil grow

 

[chrissy2]

I've had this happen to me once in the past. I'm not sure what the problem was. I though maybe I screwed the Ph or something. Was disappointing how little that grow yielded.

 

[mastagrizzle]

I had some nutrient burn problems solved mostly by upgrading my hannah's. Research has told me hannah used to be the one to use but have dropped off quality wise.. I got these pinapple express myself day 10. . Did u lollipop in veg?

 

[ronvmpc]

Have u ran this cut yet? Are u sure it is a 10 weeker? I had a feminized SLH that ran 13 weeks once and it could have gone longer. Just a thought.

Good luck.

 

[Warrioreuel]

I don't see anything that jumps out at me as wrong in your setup. I did look up that strain and the posted time is 9-10 weeks. I flower at least 1-2 weeks longer than the posted time on a regular basis. I go by when the bud is actually ready looking at it under a scope. My experience is always longer than the advertised time. So your 7 weeks could easily turn into 12 weeks in which case you are still 5 weeks away from finishing. Although that said those buds do look small. When you say you are 7 weeks into flower, that 7 weeks time starts after you see the first hairs, 2-3 weeks after you switch to 12-12. I am not thrilled with the little amount of light you are using. My grow room is 10x11 with two UCX8 systems, so 16 grow sights. I have 6x1000w HPS lights in there. I get 8 pounds on a regular basis even when I screw up the nutrients, PH and fight mites. So your 1000W light may not be giving you what you need in sheer light needed. A good grow and a good strain can give you 1g per watt, or a tad over 2 pounds for a 1000W light. Not sure how the light mover figures in. I never hit this number as I am always fighting mites, gnats and other bothersome critters intent on ruining my crop. I say just ride it out and do not be in a hurry to harvest early.
Edit: Did you mention your CO2 levels? Do you know what they are? regular outside air is about 380 PPM. For a hydro system to perform you need way more than normal CO2. Getting ultimate performance from any system means every piece of the puzzle needs to be there and be strong. Your total harvest will only be as good as your weakest link in the setup.

 

[SmokeyJoe710]

I had some nutrient burn problems solved mostly by upgrading my hannah's. Research has told me hannah used to be the one to use but have dropped off quality wise.. I got these pinapple express myself day 10. . Did u lollipop in veg?

Yeah i'm def going to get a new meter as soon as I can afford it, I blew all my money on this setup so I'm going to have to wait until after harvest unfortunately. Do you have any recommendations on a reliable combo meter?

I did start lollipopping the lemons about 2 weeks before flower. I did minor chops once a week until end of week 3 in flower, then I did the big chop. On the pineapple express I didn't do hardly any defoliating until week 2 and 3 of flower then I did major removal, it seemed to work out better that way, the pineapples look much better than my lemons. Seems to be a really resilient strain, they got tall really quickly but that probably has to do with my temps more than the genetics. Here's a couple pics in week 6 flower(since 12/12 flip), the PE is on the right and SLH on the left. PE is gettin some nice kola shape, good inter nodal distance, but the buds are still slightly small likely due to my lack of light.

 

[SmokeyJoe710]

Have u ran this cut yet? Are u sure it is a 10 weeker? I had a feminized SLH that ran 13 weeks once and it could have gone longer. Just a thought.

Good luck.

Thanks for the response, no I have never grown this one before, never grown anything before this besides bag seed lol so my experience is very limited. I've been told by multiple people now that this strain can easily reach 13 weeks so maybe it will just take a little longer than I expected. I also started counting flowering weeks right after the 12/12 flip, I know there's debate on whether that is correct practice or not, so I'm not sure if that could be a factor too.

 

[SmokeyJoe710]

I don't see anything that jumps out at me as wrong in your setup. I did look up that strain and the posted time is 9-10 weeks. I flower at least 1-2 weeks longer than the posted time on a regular basis. I go by when the bud is actually ready looking at it under a scope. My experience is always longer than the advertised time. So your 7 weeks could easily turn into 12 weeks in which case you are still 5 weeks away from finishing. Although that said those buds do look small. When you say you are 7 weeks into flower, that 7 weeks time starts after you see the first hairs, 2-3 weeks after you switch to 12-12. I am not thrilled with the little amount of light you are using. My grow room is 10x11 with two UCX8 systems, so 16 grow sights. I have 6x1000w HPS lights in there. I get 8 pounds on a regular basis even when I screw up the nutrients, PH and fight mites. So your 1000W light may not be giving you what you need in sheer light needed. A good grow and a good strain can give you 1g per watt, or a tad over 2 pounds for a 1000W light. Not sure how the light mover figures in. I never hit this number as I am always fighting mites, gnats and other bothersome critters intent on ruining my crop. I say just ride it out and do not be in a hurry to harvest early.
Edit: Did you mention your CO2 levels? Do you know what they are? regular outside air is about 380 PPM. For a hydro system to perform you need way more than normal CO2. Getting ultimate performance from any system means every piece of the puzzle needs to be there and be strong. Your total harvest will only be as good as your weakest link in the setup.

Thanks for the response man, I know that description was daunting. Wow!! Those are the type of yield numbers I'm trying to get to, I feared from the beginning that I wasn't going to have enough light and I think it turned out to be a big factor in the bud size now. I'm thinking for my next round I'm going to put both 1000w's in one tent for flower, and get some 600w's for veg. Switch to a perpetual veg and flower tent setup instead of having both going at the same rate. Hopefully I'll get more efficiency out of those 1000w's and get closer to the 1g per watt goal that way? How bad is the electric bill with all that wattage!? I'm nervous to go above 2000w but if it's necessary and the yield is there I suppose it's worth it!

I did start counting flowering weeks from the day I flipped to 12/12. I had preflower pistils showing up the the last two weeks in veg so I figured that was what people were describing when saying wait for hairs? Maybe I'm not as far along as I thought I was? If that is the case how do I adapt the nutrient schedule to this delay? Do you use the Cultured Solutions nutes? I'll attach a copy of the feed schedule I have from them since I believe they have a new one with new nute products. I've been following the schedule until week 4 of flower when the N tox started setting in again, then I started getting a little crazy with the ratios trying to find the proper balance for the strain. Ultimately I think I just made things worse. The attachment shows my actual ratios and ppm maxes in red, maybe you can decipher something from that info.

CO2 levels are unknown, I was hoping to add in a burner next round since I ran out of funds in the original setup I have here. I realize CO2 is crucial to plant growth though so I've been attempting to circulate as much air as possible through the room to bring in a fresh supply. But I am in a basement with no fresh air intake, just recirculating air through the space so maybe my levels are really low? I drew up a quick layout of the basement space, what is your opinion? Should I setup a fresh air intake from a window or something? Or is the air circulating down there enough to keep the PPMs up? It's a fairly large basement.

Thanks again for the help, this whole endeavor has been exactly like putting together the pieces of a puzzle lol a very difficult puzzle, not easy at all... much muchh more to this indoor hydro stuff than I anticipated. But it's challenging and entertaining so I keep pushing through for that good smoke! I really appreciate you taking the time to actually contemplate my issues. It's great that people on this forum are readily familiar with the under current design, most other forums give me some ridiculous advice on RDWC, telling me to bump my ppms up to 1600 and such haha this thing seems to be a whole different animal in DWC. Probably should have started off my growing adventure with a more user friendly design but I'm determined to put in the hard work to tame this beast!

Edit: Forgot to mention regarding the CO2 that the exhaust fans on the tents pull air out and vent it directly into the room. I ran out of hvac duct so that was my only choice.

 

[SmokeyJoe710]

I got a random question too, is it better to premix your nutrients before adding to the rez or add each one at a time? Or does it even matter at all? haha trying to cover every piece of the puzzle here.

 

[Seamaiden]

Have you read the thread on dudded, stunted plants yet?

 

[SmokeyJoe710]

Have you read the thread on dudded, stunted plants yet?

No I sure haven't, I'll try to find it. Is it stickied somewhere?

 

[SmokeyJoe710]

Always add to the rez one at a time.
Never mix nutrients EVER.

Awesome, thanks. I was mixing them in veg, but started doing one at a time in flower. It seemed wrong mixing them, they must have been separated into parts for a reason.

In regards to the low CO2, how would you recommend fixing this without a CO2 tank? Just duct in fresh air from outside?

Also, I've been thinking about my ppms. I understand that in DWC you want the ppms and ph to stay steady correct? Meaning that the nutrients are being taken up at the same rate as water. Does this still apply if I have an automatic top off rez with plain RO? I would think that the ppm will drop on account of the top-off water diluting the solution. This would make the same effect of ppm drop/ph rise as when their is not enough nutrient in the solution right?

 

[Seamaiden]

No I sure haven't, I'll try to find it. Is it stickied somewhere?

It's in the infirmary. I don't believe it's been stickied yet. I personally will wait to hear back on the tissue testing being discussed before I'm going to sticky it, but another moderator may feel differently and beat me to it.

 

[Warrioreuel]

You absolutely need to get your CO2 up. If you get hold of even a cheap meter you will see your CO2 is below normal outside air. Several options.
1) Duct in outside air on a timer every so often. Depending on your outside weather condition this can be good or bad.
2) Use a propane operated CO2 generator. Beware they generate lots of heat.
3) Use a CO2 tank (welding shop) and regulator. This the method I use.
4) Construct some sort of generator by fermentation. Several articles on here about that, never tried it. Sounds way too tedious for my size grow. It may be ok in a tent grow.

There are tons of articles about PPMs and PH etc swinging up and down. In a nutshell, your PPMs will drift downward and your PH drift upwards when topping of with RO water. This is normal and exactly what you want. Lots of variables contribute to how much nutes you will use. Low humidity you will find that a low PPM solution works fine as your plants are consuming lots of water to stay hydrated, just like a person. High humidity condition you can up your PPMs as the plants water uptake is far less than in dry conditions. You can research for a long time on those subjects.I cant recall if you said you had a chiller or not. I keep my water at 64 degrees at all times. Helps keep root rot and other stuff from getting a foot hold. I also am an avid fan of adding peroxide to my water on an every other day regime. I use 1 ml of 29% peroxide per gallon of water in my system. So for me I add about 50-60 ml peroxide every other day. Many have good luck with the chlorine route, never tried it.
And one more thing. I promise you that the advertised flower time of 10 weeks does not start until after you see the first hairs, 2-3 weeks after switching to 12/12. Personally i think the confusion started from advertised time of auto flower strains. Typically the auto strains are advertised as "from seed to harvest in 10 weeks". But, for photoperiod strains the flower time is measured from first sighting of hairs, typically 2-3 weeks from switching to 12/12.

 

[rascali]

A couple of things that i notice in the pics… The shoots aren't showing full alternating phylotaxy which is one of the better signs of sexual maturity. I also see a lot of trichome activity diffusing around the bud sites which is a sign of weak hormonal flux. I guess 6wks wasn't enough time for your plant to fully mature and now it's struggling to assert it's sexual direction.
You can try to wait it out for a real surge but since it's sativa that could be a real patience bender.

I also see a plant that doesn't have a lot of topside and probably not much of a root system given it's short life. I also know that a ppm meters mode of failure is to UNDERREAD solutions and you mentioned having difficulty getting your ppm's to reach recommendations which leads me to diagnose your dark green deformed growth issues as over-fertlization.
Buy that new meter and check it against the old one.

 

[KarmaPharms]

Always add to the rez one at a time.
Never mix nutrients EVER.

What do you mean never mix nutes? Like don't premix your nutes in a jug 1st?