Breeders And Chuckers Etiquette

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jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Just read this article written by Matt of Riot Seeds on his perspective of proper etiquette in the breeding and pollen chucking world. Some of it resonated with me.

Take what you want and leave the rest. :D:smoking:

Quoted from Matthew,

The world of seed making, breeding, and pollen chucking is growing every single day with people new to the business. These aspiring breeders are finding themselves dropped into the middle of an arena that is filled with a great deal of unspoken rules, backdoor handshakes, constantly changing alliances (is this too Game Of Thronesy?). With everything in a constant state of change, it’s hard for people to figure out what rules always hold true as far as the permitted use of others’ genetics in their own work. Here’s a few tips that may help you to navigate those waters while avoiding the pitfalls that bring unwanted attention and drama.

Paying dues isn’t something new to the world of business, in fact in many industries including the cannabis breeding world. You’ll also find it big in the tattoo world, plumbers, professional wrestling, and pirate ships. The world of breeding and seed companies isn’t a new thing despite the history not being covered in books and not being as accessible to those who have just arrived. Needless to say, paying dues is important. This is where you first find your foothold in the world of breeding, establishing your name, your style of breeding, as well as the knowledge you’ve learned up until this point. So with this in mind, the following are rules to keep you from stepping on others’ toes at the same time as allowing you to start your adventure and keep your focus on what is important – good, solid breeding.

Rule 1: Pull up a chair and shut your mouth
This may be the most often broken rule by newcomers. Everyone wants to talk about their expertise and the “facts” that they learn on instagram or, in the case of the older days, cannabis forums. While an even exchange is great between peers, there will be times when an old, learned, seasoned breeder offers some advice. Close your mouth and listen. You’d be surprised what you could learn if you hang out and just listen when an old schooler lets some of his knowledge and trade secrets out. It’s a chance to eat that proverbial Super Mario Brothers mushroom and power up. Now, this doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t ask questions when the time is right, in fact if a breeder doesn’t invite questions about breeding, that should make you question them as breeders. Breeding should be a passion and passionate people love talking about the science of breeding.

Rule 2: Breeding is IN FACT a science
There are plenty of terms being used when speaking about lines: from F1, F2, and F3 to IBL, Backcrossing, and Cubing. You should know the definitions of all of these terms and use them appropriately. Google is a VALUABLE resource, but so are old books – namely, “Marijuana Botany” by Robert C. Clarke. If this book isn’t in your arsenal and this is something you are passionate about, it needs to be immediately added. Mind you, it’s older, but the information therein about breeding will not change. These are your solid fundamentals.

A quick note as well – please learn how to express your genetic formulas. This means Female x male, and when speaking of polyhybrids, which most of todays lines are, you need to know when to use parentheses, why you’re using them, as well as brackets. When a person doesn’t understand how to do this it makes me immediately question their knowledge and passion.

Rule 3: Breeding has a purpose
One of the most common errors I see is the misuse of the term “Breeding.” When it comes to cannabis, the most common consensus is that Breeding is a pairing of two or more lines with the purpose of selecting traits leading to an expected outcome. People often ask “How do you select your males?” This seems like a perfectly normal question from people not in the breeding world, however to an experienced breeder the logic doesn’t quite fit what we do. The answer I always give is that it depends on the project and what the overall goal I’m trying to achieve is. As a breeder, your logic should be “I want the next line I make to have X,Y, and Z traits… what do I have in my strain arsenal to achieve this goal?” If you’re crossing two lines just to see what happens, this isn’t breeding, but baby steps in the direction of breeding. With that said, not everyone has to be a breeder to make seeds. There are plenty of people hitting whole rooms of different females to one male because they happen to like the sound and or look of the male. That’s a perfectly valid and acceptable way to make seeds, however it isn’t breeding. I, myself, find a combination of the two methods to be the most successful way to run a seed company. Make the crosses people want and desire (hype strains) while working the line you love, over time in the background. I learned a long time ago that trying to stay relevant in the ever changing seed world isn’t easy. People want “new and shiny stuffs”, and it genuinely takes time to work lines and breed. So a measured dose of the two is highly advisable.

Rule 4: Permissions
Remember, the vast majority of strains is in the public domain, so in theory you can use almost any to start a breeding project. That said, go back to the intro of this article…

Permissions are bar none the question I get asked about the most. When is it okay to use another breeder’s work in your own creations? A quick answer would be to say “breeding is like an art piece”. You’d never directly copy someone’s art while they’re still selling their painting. But I will go into a bit more detail to help with the more specific questions.

The main determiner in most of the following is whether you paid for the seeds. So please, keep that in mind. When using someone’s work, at no time should you ever take two lines from one breeder and cross them. If you decide it’s super necessary and want to do that anyway, you absolutely should have permission. It looks uncreative and you’ll never truly be able to call that your own creation. So why go down that route? With all of the world of genetics to choose from, this shouldn’t be an issue anyway.

When using just one line from a single source in your cross (and this is assuming that both lines are from different breeders that you will be crossing), if you paid for that strain you are using, it is POLITE and looked upon favorably to ask the breeder for their permission, however it is not required. This is one of those times where it’s nice to reach out and say “Hey, I really enjoyed this line of yours – so much in fact that it would be an honor if you would give me your blessing in using it”, etc. It’s not hard to do, you don’t have to go much out of your way, and in fact you can cut and paste what I just wrote and add in which line it is. Now no one has an excuse not to do this. HOWEVER, and I must emphasize HOWEVER, if the breeder declines his blessing and you paid for the seeds and selected that cut, it is totally up to you to decide whether to proceed with the project. This is one of those times where a lot of old school breeders have different points of view about the proper way of doing things. But if you have paid for those seeds and did the selection, in my opinion, you are on firm ground to do what you wish, but expect some backlash if they said no.

When is it okay to “Fgen” (if you don’t know the term refer to Rule 2)?
There are only a few instances where it is okay to directly copy someone’s work. One instance is if it’s a very old line, the breeder is no longer participating in the seed sales world and the seeds aren’t currently being sold by the breeder. Especially if the line is at risk of being lost. If there isn’t really anyone to reach out to and ask for permission, while the line is at risk of being lost or isn’t widely available, then this is a time when “Fgenning” is absolutely permissible. If it’s a clone only cut and no one has taken credit for its creation, then it’s acceptable to S1 that line. Now, if a breeder gives you direct permission to “Fgen” or “Self” any of their work, be smart and keep screenshots. People like to be fickle and change their mind, so it’s good to have that as a backup when the turd hits the punch bowl.

Rule 5: Respect, Respect, Respect
Let’s say you’ve used someone’s lines and have proper permissions. You finally got your first review in Skunk Magazine and get to write a blurb. Be sure to give props to the ones that came before you to make that strain possible. Be humble, kind, and honest when doing so. If there’s someone whose words you’ve read that have influenced your breeding techniques or directions and you have a chance to give them props – do it! None of us got here without the help, work, and words of someone else. Even if you don’t necessarily like the breeder whose work you used, it is NEVER okay to strip permission from them. Respecting and honoring those who paid their dues to get you to this point goes a LONG way with earning trust and making valuable relationships.

Rule 6: Come with THICK skin
Man… of all of the rules, this may be more appropriate at the top. If you don’t have thick skin in this business, you will not last and you will constantly be filled with stress. People can be very judgmental, ugly, and don’t like taking responsibility for their grows, and if you’re the one providing this crowd seeds, expect some unkind words. There isn’t one person who sells seeds that hasn’t had someone herm their seeds. It’s bound to happen, people can be reckless with their grows and a lot of them have WAY TOO MUCH time on their hands. In this modern world of 2018, keyboard warriors rule the day. I learned the hard way that you can’t fight back every single time. You have to pick your battles, and a quick bit of advice – 99% of the time there is no problem that can’t be solved with a kind gesture of free seeds.

Conclusion
I hope this has helped some of you understand the fluid motion of this business and its intricacies with permissions, paying dues, and saving your sanity. While there are too many companies who are only in it for the greed, we DO need new blood with new ideas and new points of view when it comes to breeding. If you’re passionate about this plant and have a firm understanding of breeding science, I implore you to make your way and don’t give up the first time it gets overwhelming. I, personally, LOVE seeing people work with my lines. It’s the kindest gesture to give one of my lines new life and take them on a new journey.
 
JWM2

JWM2

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Very good article. Most of it is common sense or at least should be. So nothing too ground breaking but a good way of doing business none the less. I see these rules broken all the time and we’ve all seen hype men come and go.

If I may I’d like to add a couple points that I think it’s missing.

Testing - Test your work and progeny if you are going to sell them. Don’t just take someone’s word for it. It’s one thing to pollen chuck and hand out free seeds but it’s another to pollen chuck and charge folks for those seeds.

Pricing - While this is often not in direct control of the breeder but the outlet that sells them, be reasonable. You didn’t create the plant you simply helped Mother Nature create a variation of it. To market and charge obscene prices for untested pollen chucks is just evil and will do more harm than good.

Show Your Work - When possible document as much as you can and don’t be afraid to share that work with the public. There should be no secrets or secret sauce recipes here. Keep notes and take lots of pics. Keep track of phenos and environmental conditions leading to those genetic expressions. Don’t be afraid to show others what and how you’ve created what you did.

Keep your Customers Happy - Sure hermies and all male packs are bound to happen. But that customer went to great lengths to grow your gear. They spent time and money buying the seeds, they waited weeks to get them from half way around the world. They grew them out and babied them like their children. Then tragedy struck and now they are upset. Understandable. They wasted more than the cost of a pack of seeds growing them out. They used space in their garden, they paid for all the growing medium, nutrients, water and electricity to grow them. So don’t just offer to replace the seeds. Kill them with kindness. Offer them several packs of seeds and feel free to send them new unreleased stuff to help make them feel special. That’s how you turn an unhappy customer into an evangelist.

Pitch In - Don’t be afraid to help others. There’s lots of communities out there where new growers go for advice. Share some advice with them. You have lots of experience and knowledge (I hope) and it would behoove you to share it with others.

Help those in Need - If you see someone who is having a rough go and might have gotten screwed over by someone else (there’s lots of scammer in this biz after all) offer to help make it right. It’s an opportunity to turn someone else’s bad review into someone who will spread the word of how generous you are.
 
Rootbound

Rootbound

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Just read this article written by Matt of Riot Seeds on his perspective of proper etiquette in the breeding and pollen chucking world. Some of it resonated with me.

Take what you want and leave the rest. :D:smoking:

Quoted from Matthew,

The world of seed making, breeding, and pollen chucking is growing every single day with people new to the business. These aspiring breeders are finding themselves dropped into the middle of an arena that is filled with a great deal of unspoken rules, backdoor handshakes, constantly changing alliances (is this too Game Of Thronesy?). With everything in a constant state of change, it’s hard for people to figure out what rules always hold true as far as the permitted use of others’ genetics in their own work. Here’s a few tips that may help you to navigate those waters while avoiding the pitfalls that bring unwanted attention and drama.

Paying dues isn’t something new to the world of business, in fact in many industries including the cannabis breeding world. You’ll also find it big in the tattoo world, plumbers, professional wrestling, and pirate ships. The world of breeding and seed companies isn’t a new thing despite the history not being covered in books and not being as accessible to those who have just arrived. Needless to say, paying dues is important. This is where you first find your foothold in the world of breeding, establishing your name, your style of breeding, as well as the knowledge you’ve learned up until this point. So with this in mind, the following are rules to keep you from stepping on others’ toes at the same time as allowing you to start your adventure and keep your focus on what is important – good, solid breeding.

Rule 1: Pull up a chair and shut your mouth
This may be the most often broken rule by newcomers. Everyone wants to talk about their expertise and the “facts” that they learn on instagram or, in the case of the older days, cannabis forums. While an even exchange is great between peers, there will be times when an old, learned, seasoned breeder offers some advice. Close your mouth and listen. You’d be surprised what you could learn if you hang out and just listen when an old schooler lets some of his knowledge and trade secrets out. It’s a chance to eat that proverbial Super Mario Brothers mushroom and power up. Now, this doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t ask questions when the time is right, in fact if a breeder doesn’t invite questions about breeding, that should make you question them as breeders. Breeding should be a passion and passionate people love talking about the science of breeding.

Rule 2: Breeding is IN FACT a science
There are plenty of terms being used when speaking about lines: from F1, F2, and F3 to IBL, Backcrossing, and Cubing. You should know the definitions of all of these terms and use them appropriately. Google is a VALUABLE resource, but so are old books – namely, “Marijuana Botany” by Robert C. Clarke. If this book isn’t in your arsenal and this is something you are passionate about, it needs to be immediately added. Mind you, it’s older, but the information therein about breeding will not change. These are your solid fundamentals.

A quick note as well – please learn how to express your genetic formulas. This means Female x male, and when speaking of polyhybrids, which most of todays lines are, you need to know when to use parentheses, why you’re using them, as well as brackets. When a person doesn’t understand how to do this it makes me immediately question their knowledge and passion.

Rule 3: Breeding has a purpose
One of the most common errors I see is the misuse of the term “Breeding.” When it comes to cannabis, the most common consensus is that Breeding is a pairing of two or more lines with the purpose of selecting traits leading to an expected outcome. People often ask “How do you select your males?” This seems like a perfectly normal question from people not in the breeding world, however to an experienced breeder the logic doesn’t quite fit what we do. The answer I always give is that it depends on the project and what the overall goal I’m trying to achieve is. As a breeder, your logic should be “I want the next line I make to have X,Y, and Z traits… what do I have in my strain arsenal to achieve this goal?” If you’re crossing two lines just to see what happens, this isn’t breeding, but baby steps in the direction of breeding. With that said, not everyone has to be a breeder to make seeds. There are plenty of people hitting whole rooms of different females to one male because they happen to like the sound and or look of the male. That’s a perfectly valid and acceptable way to make seeds, however it isn’t breeding. I, myself, find a combination of the two methods to be the most successful way to run a seed company. Make the crosses people want and desire (hype strains) while working the line you love, over time in the background. I learned a long time ago that trying to stay relevant in the ever changing seed world isn’t easy. People want “new and shiny stuffs”, and it genuinely takes time to work lines and breed. So a measured dose of the two is highly advisable.

Rule 4: Permissions
Remember, the vast majority of strains is in the public domain, so in theory you can use almost any to start a breeding project. That said, go back to the intro of this article…

Permissions are bar none the question I get asked about the most. When is it okay to use another breeder’s work in your own creations? A quick answer would be to say “breeding is like an art piece”. You’d never directly copy someone’s art while they’re still selling their painting. But I will go into a bit more detail to help with the more specific questions.

The main determiner in most of the following is whether you paid for the seeds. So please, keep that in mind. When using someone’s work, at no time should you ever take two lines from one breeder and cross them. If you decide it’s super necessary and want to do that anyway, you absolutely should have permission. It looks uncreative and you’ll never truly be able to call that your own creation. So why go down that route? With all of the world of genetics to choose from, this shouldn’t be an issue anyway.

When using just one line from a single source in your cross (and this is assuming that both lines are from different breeders that you will be crossing), if you paid for that strain you are using, it is POLITE and looked upon favorably to ask the breeder for their permission, however it is not required. This is one of those times where it’s nice to reach out and say “Hey, I really enjoyed this line of yours – so much in fact that it would be an honor if you would give me your blessing in using it”, etc. It’s not hard to do, you don’t have to go much out of your way, and in fact you can cut and paste what I just wrote and add in which line it is. Now no one has an excuse not to do this. HOWEVER, and I must emphasize HOWEVER, if the breeder declines his blessing and you paid for the seeds and selected that cut, it is totally up to you to decide whether to proceed with the project. This is one of those times where a lot of old school breeders have different points of view about the proper way of doing things. But if you have paid for those seeds and did the selection, in my opinion, you are on firm ground to do what you wish, but expect some backlash if they said no.

When is it okay to “Fgen” (if you don’t know the term refer to Rule 2)?
There are only a few instances where it is okay to directly copy someone’s work. One instance is if it’s a very old line, the breeder is no longer participating in the seed sales world and the seeds aren’t currently being sold by the breeder. Especially if the line is at risk of being lost. If there isn’t really anyone to reach out to and ask for permission, while the line is at risk of being lost or isn’t widely available, then this is a time when “Fgenning” is absolutely permissible. If it’s a clone only cut and no one has taken credit for its creation, then it’s acceptable to S1 that line. Now, if a breeder gives you direct permission to “Fgen” or “Self” any of their work, be smart and keep screenshots. People like to be fickle and change their mind, so it’s good to have that as a backup when the turd hits the punch bowl.

Rule 5: Respect, Respect, Respect
Let’s say you’ve used someone’s lines and have proper permissions. You finally got your first review in Skunk Magazine and get to write a blurb. Be sure to give props to the ones that came before you to make that strain possible. Be humble, kind, and honest when doing so. If there’s someone whose words you’ve read that have influenced your breeding techniques or directions and you have a chance to give them props – do it! None of us got here without the help, work, and words of someone else. Even if you don’t necessarily like the breeder whose work you used, it is NEVER okay to strip permission from them. Respecting and honoring those who paid their dues to get you to this point goes a LONG way with earning trust and making valuable relationships.

Rule 6: Come with THICK skin
Man… of all of the rules, this may be more appropriate at the top. If you don’t have thick skin in this business, you will not last and you will constantly be filled with stress. People can be very judgmental, ugly, and don’t like taking responsibility for their grows, and if you’re the one providing this crowd seeds, expect some unkind words. There isn’t one person who sells seeds that hasn’t had someone herm their seeds. It’s bound to happen, people can be reckless with their grows and a lot of them have WAY TOO MUCH time on their hands. In this modern world of 2018, keyboard warriors rule the day. I learned the hard way that you can’t fight back every single time. You have to pick your battles, and a quick bit of advice – 99% of the time there is no problem that can’t be solved with a kind gesture of free seeds.

Conclusion
I hope this has helped some of you understand the fluid motion of this business and its intricacies with permissions, paying dues, and saving your sanity. While there are too many companies who are only in it for the greed, we DO need new blood with new ideas and new points of view when it comes to breeding. If you’re passionate about this plant and have a firm understanding of breeding science, I implore you to make your way and don’t give up the first time it gets overwhelming. I, personally, LOVE seeing people work with my lines. It’s the kindest gesture to give one of my lines new life and take them on a new journey.
I didnt bother even looking at it, I lost all respect for Matt Riot yrs ago....
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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pays to be in the know, enquiring minds ya know. Talk to me root @Rootbound
 
JWM2

JWM2

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For sure. I’m not wanting to spread gossip or anything. But if there’s something that upset a friend then I’d like to know.
 
Rootbound

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There was a breeder named outlawgrower a few yrs ago. Riot was contacting every breeder around to give him their parental breeding stock so he could help the sick,lol.. Outlawgrower declined his request and Riot got mad. Not long after that Outlawgrower got popped and Riot laughed at the news and said he deserved to be behind bars for not sharing..:puke2:
 
JWM2

JWM2

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There was a breeder named outlawgrower a few yrs ago. Riot was contacting every breeder around to give him their parental breeding stock so he could help the sick,lol.. Outlawgrower declined his request and Riot got mad. Not long after that Outlawgrower got popped and Riot laughed at the news and said he deserved to be behind bars for not sharing..:puke2:

I sure hope he’s helping a shitload of them at $500 a pop for his seeds. Karma works in mysterious ways.

Not that I’d tell someone else how to run their business as it’s none of my business but he doesn’t pass the smell test if ya know what I mean.
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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There was a breeder named outlawgrower a few yrs ago. Riot was contacting every breeder around to give him their parental breeding stock so he could help the sick,lol.. Outlawgrower declined his request and Riot got mad. Not long after that Outlawgrower got popped and Riot laughed at the news and said he deserved to be behind bars for not sharing..:puke2:
WOW...………………… maybe he got struck by the good karma wagon and has changed his wayzzzzzzz. Thanks for the heads up. :D Any links or sources where a fellow can draw his own conclusions? forums etc.?
 
Rootbound

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jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Tho I would like to add, our teachers can come from anywhere. So even tho he may be of of questionable character, the body of some of his suggestions are sound even tho he may not practice his own advice. :D
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Very good article. Most of it is common sense or at least should be. So nothing too ground breaking but a good way of doing business none the less. I see these rules broken all the time and we’ve all seen hype men come and go.

If I may I’d like to add a couple points that I think it’s missing.

Testing - Test your work and progeny if you are going to sell them. Don’t just take someone’s word for it. It’s one thing to pollen chuck and hand out free seeds but it’s another to pollen chuck and charge folks for those seeds.

Pricing - While this is often not in direct control of the breeder but the outlet that sells them, be reasonable. You didn’t create the plant you simply helped Mother Nature create a variation of it. To market and charge obscene prices for untested pollen chucks is just evil and will do more harm than good.

Show Your Work - When possible document as much as you can and don’t be afraid to share that work with the public. There should be no secrets or secret sauce recipes here. Keep notes and take lots of pics. Keep track of phenos and environmental conditions leading to those genetic expressions. Don’t be afraid to show others what and how you’ve created what you did.

Keep your Customers Happy - Sure hermies and all male packs are bound to happen. But that customer went to great lengths to grow your gear. They spent time and money buying the seeds, they waited weeks to get them from half way around the world. They grew them out and babied them like their children. Then tragedy struck and now they are upset. Understandable. They wasted more than the cost of a pack of seeds growing them out. They used space in their garden, they paid for all the growing medium, nutrients, water and electricity to grow them. So don’t just offer to replace the seeds. Kill them with kindness. Offer them several packs of seeds and feel free to send them new unreleased stuff to help make them feel special. That’s how you turn an unhappy customer into an evangelist.

Pitch In - Don’t be afraid to help others. There’s lots of communities out there where new growers go for advice. Share some advice with them. You have lots of experience and knowledge (I hope) and it would behoove you to share it with others.

Help those in Need - If you see someone who is having a rough go and might have gotten screwed over by someone else (there’s lots of scammer in this biz after all) offer to help make it right. It’s an opportunity to turn someone else’s bad review into someone who will spread the word of how generous you are.

Great addition to the list!!!!
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Didnt mean to go off topic. Back to breeding etiquette....
its all good root. I appreciate the heads up a I had been considering some collaboration. Will have to rethink that. If all is true, not the type I want to run with for sure.
 
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