Ca:mg Ratios. Where Did It Start And How Important Is It?

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toquer

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However, it is the ability to tolerate excessive Al, Mn and Fe that largely determines the flora of acid soils, and an insensitivity to Fe‐ and P‐deficienciesthat determines the flora of calcareous soils.

This would lead me to believe that cannabis is a calcifuge. It says in their natural habitat. So I'm closest to mexico as far as landrace goes. Unless George Washington was growing something different. None the less...
In basic soil or high pH soil cannabis doesn't perform well at all.
A lack of iron and/or phosphorus is noticed immediately.
Conversely excess of Al, Mn, and/or Fe doesn't hurt as much. Hell rock to much Fe and it's just a really dark green for a few weeks, some tip burn. Not sure in flower though.
Also this is soil based, not hydro as the mineralization cycle does not occur in water to my knowledge.

Now I've never been to the mountains in the middle East where i assume its dry, the land is rocky, minerals are abundant in the soil which is likely calcarious. Indica dominant kush plants grow well there. Massive fan leaves, large roots that go deep searching out water and running into high concentrations of elements with little water. Hmmm, seems like the perfect environment.

Now take today's crap, bred back and forth and sideways and backcrossed. Mendel would shit himself. Anyways, just my two cents.
 
K

kuz

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Thanks for posting @MGRox. Shed some light on a few things. I also need to read over it a bit more. As for the last question I agree with quantrill and toquer, I dont think "neither" is the answer though, think I am missing something.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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@toquer *Claps and Cheers* You got it man, good job! That's the exact sentence that gives it away ;)

As a general rule of thumb then; if their natural environment is of a low pH ( < 7.0), then they are likely to be a calcifuge. This gets stronger as the natural habitat is shifted more acidic. Acidophiles (< 5.0) are typically fairly strong Calcifuges. On the other end of the scale with a higher pH (>7.0) it pretty much has to be a calcicole; however there are many fewer plants in the world that are Calcicole.

Toquer mentioned about mineralization and ultimately this is what determines "why" they evolved to be Calcifuge or Calcicole. You can compare a soil pH chart, but many metals have more availability at a lower pH while Ca is reduced; thus Calcifuges must be tolerant to this (metals). At a high pH, Ca availability increases while the metals are reduced; thus Calcicoles must be tolerant to this (Calcium).

Now I just have to figure out where I stashed the other stuff that will help here too. It took me a bit of time, but I was able to find out what the difference is with these plant types and why. With that, assertions can then be made to optimize things. I'll see if I can get the time for the rest of the info soon.
 
Quantrill

Quantrill

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With respect, I disagree with your conclusions toquer and MGRox.

Might I suggest you continue looking at this subject, maybe consider what role trichomes might play in the calcium game. Maybe compare dry weight content of calcium between known calcicoles and known calcifuges with cannabis. Look into cultural practices for industrial hemp.

cheers
 
MGRox

MGRox

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Sorry for the delay in posting here, but I finally got some time to pop in again.

@Quantrill Yea I'm aware of Trichomes and their connection with Ca; that was why I posted and underlined the sentence
Within the leaf, Ca follows the apoplastic route of the transpiration stream and accumulates in either the mesophyll cells, trichomes or epidermal cells adjacent to guard cells, depending on the plant species. Both the [Ca2+]cyt in guard cells and the closing of stomata in detached epidermal strips are sensitive to apoplastic Ca2+ concentrations within the range of [Ca2+]xylem."
About being a Calcifuge, I wonder here, if you may possibly have the wrong perspective on what the label Calcifuge / Calcicole means. That categorization is in no way connected to Calcium "Use" or "Requirement" for plant species. If it were, then ecologists would not have been able to group all plants into just 2 categories. Rather, it was originally brought forth from noticing species diversification in differing soil conditions; which eventually led to this "bulk" classification. As well, the connections with these 2 plant types and their corresponding sensitivity / insensitivity to (Al,Fe,P,Ca and Mn) was also realized early on. However, the exact reasoning and function behind this differentiation took quite a bit longer for scientists to deduce.

So, then to cover what the difference is with these plant types and why Calcifuges are more sensitive to P and Fe; I'll just use one of the papers that is fairly straight, to the point and has good information.



From the abstract:
"Until now, mechanisms regulating this differing ability of plants to colonize limestone sites have not been elucidated. We propose that contrasting exudation of low-molecular organic acids (LOA) is a major mechanism involved and show that germinating seeds and young seedlings of limestone plants exude considerably more di- and tricarboxylic acids than calcifuges, which mainly exude monocarboxylic acids. The tricarboxylic citric acid is a powerful extractor of Fe, and the dicarboxylic oxalic acid a very effective extractor of phosphate from limestone soils. Monocarboxylic acids are very weak in these respects."

From the Discussion:
"The tricarboxylic citric acid was, by far the most powerful extractant of Fe, followed by the dicarboxylic tartaric, malic, succinic and oxalic acids, whereas the Fe solubilizing power of the monocarboxylic (formic, acetic, lactic) acids was very low. Oxalic acid proved to be the most potent solubilizer of limestone soil phosphate (Table 1)."
...
"The exudation of tricarboxylic anions, including citrate, was on average one order of magnitude greater for limestone species than for acid soil species. Exudation of dicarboxylic acids by limestone species was four to five times that from acid soil species. Exudation of the monocarboxylic formate and acetate did not differ between the two categories but approximately three times more lactate was exuded from the acid soil species than from the limestone species."
.....
"Comparing the relative proportions of LOAs exuded thus reveals clearcut differences in the exudation with no overlap between the patterns of the two plant categories (Fig. 2)"

--This paper covers only the germination and seedling phase, however it is brought forth as the easiest to cover this aspect. You can easily find more papers on this subject with various keywords in the paper above, though there is no variation, that I've found; to these ends. I.e. they all agree.

--The differing composition of root exudates, then, is what ultimately makes the difference between Calcicole and Calcifuge plant types. It is worth noting that these powerful acids exudated from Calcicoles to solubilize Fe and P; are extracting these elements (most typically) from Sulfate, Calcium or Carbonates.

Finally with the Calcicole and Calcifuge relation, there is a few more points that might be good to cover. These are taken from "calcium in plants" linked on the last page of the thread here.

"Nevertheless, calcifuges generally grow well at low Ca2+ concentrations in the rhizosphere ([Ca2+]ext) and respond little to increased [Ca2+]ext, which may even inhibit growth (Fig. 2). Conversely, the mechanisms that enable calcicole plants to maintain low [Ca2+]cyt in their natural habitat are believed to restrict their growth at low [Ca2+]ext by inducing Ca‐deficiency."

"One characteristic of calcicole plants,is a high soluble Ca concentration. In these plants, which are also termed ‘calciotrophs’ (Kinzel, 1982), Ca accumulation is stimulated greatly by increasing [Ca2+]ext. By contrast, calcifuges generally have a low soluble Ca concentration. They include the ‘potassium plants’, .....which are characterized by high shoot K/Ca quotients, and the ‘oxalate plants’, which have high tissue oxalate concentrations.
"Plants that accumulate oxalate can be subdivided into species that contain soluble oxalate and those in which Ca‐oxalate is precipitated. Interestingly, the uptake of Ca does not appear to increase with increasing [Ca2+]ext in plants containing soluble oxalate, such as the Oxalidaceae. In plants that precipitate Ca‐oxalate ......, there is a proportional increase in both Ca and oxalate concentration with increasing [Ca2+]ext."


The largest note with the last section is a relation that Calcifuges respond rather poorly to increasing Ca in the rhizome. This along with the exudates explains why certain growers have never been able to supply enough Ca via the medium with certain strains.

If we then put together all of this information it would make sense why Cannabis and Calcium issues seem to be so common. Not only considering calcifuge / root exudate differentiation but also from the previous page in which; even when proper Ca is available it may not be able to to be supplied to new tissue fast enough.

I believe I've mentioned before that often times when looking into history or understanding; there is no large change or epiphany that comes with it. None of this is intending to say that there is some great shift needed at all, but rather a possible understanding to why these things occur.

So, finally then; where does it leave us with all of this? If we add in the beginning aspects of no set Ca:Mg ratio specifically and add to this that Calcicfuges do not tend to respond well to varying Ca levels in the medium; it would be logical to conclude that the more important point here, is to maintain / achieve proper Ca Saturation levels in the medium (in relation to other elements) for your specific environment. Also, that irrespective of availability, exudates and transport rates; Calcium may very well not be able to be supplied in large enough quantity during times of rapid growth. Combining this further, it would seem logical that the best option of alleviating / averting a possible Ca- would be to focus on Foliar application to bypass nearly all issues covered. It should be noted too though, that since Ca is not transported to any degree after deposition ; that it does tend to build up in older leaves and that any fully matured leaf would not have a calcium demand in excess of delivery rates. If we further consider the Cystolic Calcium signaling, it may well also possibly be inhibitive to raise Ca levels in mature leaves beyond a certain point; as they would no longer contribute to the signals / perturbations. As such, it may serve well to only focus the foliar application on newer growth and most importantly during times of high growth.

I think that about covers things and I apologize for all of this to be so long. Hopefully this can provide help or understanding to some.
 
Quantrill

Quantrill

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If we then put together all of this information it would make sense why Cannabis and Calcium issues seem to be so common

I think this might be where our perspectives diverge. I think often times calcium deficiency is misdiagnosed by cannabis forum participants.

I know from experience that increasing the calcium supplied to cannabis improves its health in many gardens, I presume that if you had tissue analysis you would see the marked increase in shoot calcium content coincide with increased calcium fertilization.

My point regarding trichomes is that " the ability of some calcicole species to tolerate high [Ca2+]ext may be related to their ability to accumulate Ca in their trichomes (De Silva et al., 1996, 1998)."

No disrespect intended, but it seems to me that you can not see the forrest for all the trees.

https://books.google.com/books?id=1...Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=calcareous soil&f=false
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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I know from experience that increasing the calcium supplied to cannabis improves its health in many gardens, I presume that if you had tissue analysis you would see the marked increase in shoot calcium content coincide with increased calcium fertilization.
This jives with my (organic) ag readings. Not many papers, most go far beyond my pay grade and I can barely interpret them.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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props @Quantrill for quoting my most generalized statement to be made in the entire thread!!

However, the information has been put out and there is no paper that specifically states Calcicole or Calcifuge; so from here forward we are into conjecture, experience and logic.

I think often times calcium deficiency is misdiagnosed by cannabis forum participants.

When "forum members" diagnose necrosis on upper leaves as a Ca deficiency; what do you feel this is instead?

I know from experience that increasing the calcium supplied to cannabis improves its health in many gardens

Yep, in any condition below sufficiency; you probably will see some response, irrespective of classification. Beyond this, as was stated in the paper "there is little improvement". Maybe I should point out also, that Ca levels typically considered to start negatively affecting growth with plants is well above 1,000 ppm for a Calcifuge (species dependent). Calcicoles will show no negative response well above this.

I presume that if you had tissue analysis you would see the marked increase in shoot calcium content coincide with increased calcium fertilization.

This point is mute and needs removed from the debate. It does not apply to prove either case. Again as was stated in the paper previously, Ca in the shoot will vary in direct proportion to Ext. calcium within wide ranges; irrespective of Calcifuge or Calcicole.
Calcium is acquired from the soil solution by the root system and translocated to the shoot via the xylem.""The Ca concentration in xylem sap ([Ca]xylem) is influenced greatly by [Ca2+]ext, and [Ca]xylem between 300 µm and 16·5 mm has been reported.

To help also, this is saying that with Ca ranges in between 12 ppm - 660 ppm will influence Xylem and shoot concentration whether it is a calcifuge or not. Even further still, as Calcicoles primarily have the advantage of better regulation of cystolic calcium levels; at super high Ca levels, you would need to compare leaf tissue samples to note a difference, not shoots.

My point regarding trichomes is that " the ability of some calcicole species to tolerate high [Ca2+]ext may be related to their ability to accumulate Ca in their trichomes (De Silva et al., 1996, 1998)."
Yep I'm aware of that abstract and the only paper done on this. Though, it would be logical to assume that surplus Ca storage in trichomes would be a stress response; yet again irrespective of Calcicole or Calcifuge. If we were able to access the entirety of the paper, then it could be seen to what level they were noticing differences. However, note that they were not pointing out the novelty of a plant using trichomes as a stress response; but to convey the possible connection to this and further reasons to why Calcicoles may be able to tolerate such high Ca levels.
here's the paper from which you paraphrased http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-3040.1996.tb00424.x/abstract

I did enjoy that they used Dandelion's. Those things definitely will grow anywhere and never seem to have problems finding nutes.

Last with the book, that's pretty decent. I marked that as the first cannabis source I've ever seen to recommend a pH of 7.0 or above. S0 all the soil guys have been running excessively low pH?

--------------------
Okay though we need to step back and look at the "primary factors" utilized for determination of Calcicole and Calcifuge for the last 80 years or so.

Calcicoles - Will be very sensitive to Fe+ or P+ as a result of high activity root exudates. If cannabis is a Calcicole, then P- should be non-existent along with Fe + being relatively common.

Calcifuges - Will be very sensitive to Fe- or P- as a result of low activity rooot exudates. If cannabis is a Calcifuge, then P- should be relatively common along with Fe- being relatively common.

@Quantrill , you have not made any responses to these "most common" methods of determination. This is what scientists used for a long time to classify plants.

I know for me, the first deficiency I ever saw with cannabis (many years ago) was Fe deficiency. That was corrected at the behest of an old timer, with 8 rusty iron nails per gallon of pot. I've also seen many instances of P deficiency in my time. Though I cannot say that I've seen a Fe toxicity, even when I accidentally gave 25ppm of Iron Chelate before.

I'm curious here too, has ANYONE ever seen a Fe toxicity with Cannabis? How about Fe- ? or how about P - ?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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No, I have not, nor have I seen ill effects from overabundance of Ca (Fe+). I have seen Fe- in Camellia, corrected by using....? Some rusty nails, as advised by one of the old timers around here.

P- in cannabis, as you know, in my opinion, is more common than most folks think. It's usually only Dx'd when it's gotten fairly severe and you see necrosis and yellowing.
 
Quantrill

Quantrill

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I'm not in this to argue. I just wanted you to look into it a little further, because I fell like you have made some incorrect conclusions.

I will say one more thing....


if you fixed an iron deficiency in a cannabis plant by fertilizing with rust, then cannabis is not a calcifuge.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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kinda gonna go backwards here with the response.

Maybe it would help to clarify what was said with the nails. (paraphrasing) "You want an old nail that's pure iron, like before they were round; but doesn't have to be, just pure iron. The nail must be starting to rust, otherwise it will take forever for it to work, but you don't want it covered in rust. Then just stick them in the soil around your roots......since you're having iron problems I would put about 8 in there"

Just to state about what was said at least; that's how it was conveyed to me back then. From what I can find, Fe Chelates were first patented in 1957 and the first fertilizer patent is from 1959. I would presume the rusty nails were used more common before 1960 then.

With the last comment, though; I noted that the Camellia that Sea mentioned (doing the same with), is a calcifuge I guess.

Ok, that's out of the way.....
@Quantrill I did not mean to come off argumentative and I owe you an apology if I did. I would be lying to say that there was not an err of sarcasm with the "props"; however it was an honest statement, as from a debating perspective it was a great pick. I do respect you bringing up opposition and, if you believe this, I am / will still be open to learning more with this subject. I did mention that it comes down to conjecture, experience and logic so I do still consider this a theory and is thus just "my perspective"; as such, I should have put in more "i feel", "I believe" and IMHO as I tend to be a bit poor with this (when spitting out info).

I suppose on a side note. I did not intend to bring up the Calci-XX thing when starting this thread; nor did I have particular intentions of bringing it up at all. Whereas I have brought things up in the past as simply a neat find (which I try to point out as such); this particular thing I had / have spent more time on. When I used to do research for a company, any new idea would have a "shootdown session"; before any resources could be devoted. I suppose here and to make a relation; I would be at the point of approaching the team (which i kinda did here xD) and consider the theory "defensible".

My apology again to you Quantrill or Anyone who might have felt drama from this.
 
K

kuz

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What I do know is if you get the temps and humidity right most all the other issues go away. I think it all has a lot to do with ca, vapor pressure deficit about 10 and everything seems to work out.

About K, I kicked it up to 2000 ppm's once just to see, I didnt see any ill effects on that plant. That was with a strain that always seemed to want more nutes in general.
 
F

FooDoo

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What I just had happen was CA def with 109 ppm of calcium in my nutrient profile. when I reworked the profile to have 145 ppm calcium while keeping mg ppm the same and I got mg def. I do think there is a thing as too much calcium and it locks out mg. I have now reworked my nutrient profile again to have 129 ppm calcium while again keeping mg ppm the same and will see if the mg def goes away
 
K

kuz

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What about chelated ca. Going to try a foliar product called metalosate. Disguiesed as an amino acid the ca can travel anywhere in the plant.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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kinda gonna go backwards here with the response.

Maybe it would help to clarify what was said with the nails. (paraphrasing) "You want an old nail that's pure iron, like before they were round; but doesn't have to be, just pure iron. The nail must be starting to rust, otherwise it will take forever for it to work, but you don't want it covered in rust. Then just stick them in the soil around your roots......since you're having iron problems I would put about 8 in there"

Just to state about what was said at least; that's how it was conveyed to me back then. From what I can find, Fe Chelates were first patented in 1957 and the first fertilizer patent is from 1959. I would presume the rusty nails were used more common before 1960 then.

With the last comment, though; I noted that the Camellia that Sea mentioned (doing the same with), is a calcifuge I guess.

Ok, that's out of the way.....
@Quantrill I did not mean to come off argumentative and I owe you an apology if I did. I would be lying to say that there was not an err of sarcasm with the "props"; however it was an honest statement, as from a debating perspective it was a great pick. I do respect you bringing up opposition and, if you believe this, I am / will still be open to learning more with this subject. I did mention that it comes down to conjecture, experience and logic so I do still consider this a theory and is thus just "my perspective"; as such, I should have put in more "i feel", "I believe" and IMHO as I tend to be a bit poor with this (when spitting out info).

I suppose on a side note. I did not intend to bring up the Calci-XX thing when starting this thread; nor did I have particular intentions of bringing it up at all. Whereas I have brought things up in the past as simply a neat find (which I try to point out as such); this particular thing I had / have spent more time on. When I used to do research for a company, any new idea would have a "shootdown session"; before any resources could be devoted. I suppose here and to make a relation; I would be at the point of approaching the team (which i kinda did here xD) and consider the theory "defensible".

My apology again to you Quantrill or Anyone who might have felt drama from this.


I find that IMHO is one of the best tools to use when writing on the interwebz.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
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What I do know is if you get the temps and humidity right most all the other issues go away. I think it all has a lot to do with ca, vapor pressure deficit about 10 and everything seems to work out.

About K, I kicked it up to 2000 ppm's once just to see, I didnt see any ill effects on that plant. That was with a strain that always seemed to want more nutes in general.

What did you use to kick up just K like that?
 
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