Ca:mg Ratios. Where Did It Start And How Important Is It?

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K

kuz

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What did you use to kick up just K like that?
mkp and potassium sulfate. The phosphorus was around 130 I think and the sulphur was crazy high, I increased the k2so4 every week until i got it there. I think the P at 130 is way too high, especially late in bloom. It was just an experiment. Remember DD and his 13 dogs? That was the strain. The medium was growroks. By week 7 all they got was mkp and k2s04, and started flushing the next week. The bud came out real nice.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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mkp and potassium sulfate. The phosphorus was around 130 I think and the sulphur was crazy high, I increased the k2so4 every week until i got it there. I think the P at 130 is way too high, especially late in bloom. It was just an experiment. Remember DD and his 13 dogs? That was the strain. The medium was growroks. By week 7 all they got was mkp and k2s04, and started flushing the next week. The bud came out real nice.


Nice you got the 13 dogs eh? Wish I had gotten some of those. P at 130ppm is nuts, but I remember @hammerhead saying he ran really high P. The only problem I have with high P is it nukes the mycorrhizae at those levels. Also, I have said this before but I have read that a soil solution at any given time only has about 5ppm of available P. I am a big fan of less is more.

This is a great thread @MGRox
 
K

kuz

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I am a big fan of less is more.
This is a great thread @MGRox

I know you are, I'm not in that camp. I dont have 13 dogs anymore, i did make some seeds with a chem dog sister cut.

I hope MGRox follows up with more on calcium.
 
hammerhead

hammerhead

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I use Humic Acid and Kelp witch are high in P(potash) (0-0 10/1-0-10). The levels are not what I would call high. Has no effect on my micro heard.
 
hammerhead

hammerhead

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It is but when someone says high in P I don't know if there talking about Phosphorous(P) or potash(K). That's why I put Potash.. I should have used K to not Confuse the 2 my mistake...
 
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Capulator

Capulator

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It is but when someone says high in P I don't know if there talking about Phosphorous(P) or potash(K). That's why I put Potash.. I should have used K to not Confuse the 2 my mistake...

Sorry Hammerhead I was talking about a hammerhead from IC which I thought was you and I remember a long time ago reading a post that said he (or you?) used a lot of P (Phosphorous) in flower. It was in the High P myth thread.
 
MushinNoShin

MushinNoShin

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If you look around you can find all sorts of information about proper Ca:Mg ratios. You will also find that there are a few common ratios that are in literature as well, but where did this concept come from and how important is this for us?

The first conjecture at a "proper" Ca:Mg ratio came about in 1901 while looking at total Ca and Mg levels. The results here, suggested a ratio of 5:4 Ca:Mg.

Next, there was further research done in 1945. By this time, researchers had realized that total and exchangeable Ca and Mg levels were different and now considered exchangeable the more important factor.
From this, they determined the "proper" ratios of Ca:Mg based on CEC and saturation percentages.
They resulted in a saturation of; 65% Ca, 10% Mg, 5% K and 20% H. From this they determined that the "proper" ratios of Ca:Mg was 6.5:1 Ca:Mg.

As time passed and further research was conducted; suggestions of "proper" Ca:Mg ratios seemed to land at or between 5:1 and 8:1 Ca:Mg.

To add to this confusion, there are several other areas of research that have suggested a 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio.

Why would there be such a large difference in Ca:Mg ratio between various sources? Simple, they are both the SAME as they are stated from different perspectives.
I.E. 3 mmol of Ca = 60 ppm and 1 mmol of Mg = 12 ppm.
Here, you can see that a 3:1 ratio IN mmol of Ca:Mg is the SAME as a 5:1 ratio IN ppms.

So, now that we know where this came from and what "proper" ratios are; how does this effect productivity or growth then? For this we need to look into Ag and soils where Ca:Mg ratios are not kept specific; yet productivity or yield is tightly tracked.

Here are some links specific to this:
http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/icm/2003/4-21-2003/camg.html



From the first link:
""The results strongly suggest that for maximum crop yields, emphasis should be placed on providing sufficient, but nonexcesive levels of each basic cation rather than attempting to attain a favorable basic cation saturation ratio (BCSR), which evidently does not exist." Various greenhouse and field trials indicate that crop productivity is not influenced by ranges from less than 1:1 to more than 25:1--ratios outside of what is normally measured in soils.
....
"In summary, the Ca:Mg ratio concept is unproven and should not be used as a basis for fertilization or liming practices. Having sufficient levels of Ca and Mg is the proper method of evaluation, rather than trying to manipulate ratios."


From the second link:
"Thus, if adequate levels of calcium and magnesium are present in the soil, variations in the Ca:Mg ratio between 2 and 8 have no effect on yield, and varying the calcium saturation percentage from 32% to 68% and magnesium from 35% to 12% also do not influence yield.
.......
"Thus, the amounts of these nutrients taken up are determined by the selectivity of the roots. The remainder accumulates in the immediate vicinity of the roots. Therefore, it is doubtful that the supply of calcium and magnesium to the root surfaces would ever be limiting under Wisconsin conditions where soil pH is maintained in good growing range. The Ca:Mg ratio seldom will be the dominant factor determining calcium and magnesium uptake by plants. This was shown by the small variations in the tissue Ca:Mg ratio when the soil Ca:Mg ratio was varied


And from the third link:
"The optimum soil cation ratio concept, developed about 50 years ago, has been incorporated into some fertilizer recommendation philosophies in various ways. Recent field evaluations of this concept, however, show that the ratio of cations has no impact on the response of crops to Ca, Mg, and K in fertilizer programs. The optimum cation ratio concept has a major disadvantage in that even if the ratio of cations in the soil is considered to be optimum, a nutrient deficiency may still exist. A sufficient supply of available cations in the root zone is the most important consideration in making economic fertilizer recommendations."

The above papers also give results for yields in various ratios of Ca to Mg that go considerably outside any of the proposed ratios without crop production loss.

The last quote is probably the best takeaway in that sufficient levels in soils of each element is more important than their ratios to each other.

Happy Farmin'
I knew it! This really clears a lot of things up for me. Every once in awhile you come across that really great post with extremely useful information, thanks MG!
 
MGRox

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@Capulator +1 with IMHO! I'm so terrible with formalities and I hate that. Lol, I need something like the signature, but at the top of my posts; so I can always have "I believe" or "I feel" or IMHO xD.

Since you mentioned the low P thing again, I've been wanting to ask you for a clarification on that if you know. From what I understand with P, it is generally considered a "pool" in soil situations. The "Total P Pool" is comprised of 3 components; Active pool, Available pool and Unavailable pool.
-The Active pool is considered to be any P that is not bound with any other element / compound and I've found numerous relations to this pool being only 5-10 ppm (typically lower) max.
-The Available pool is considered to be any P that IS bound, but is still easily "transitioned or reduced". This would include combinations with Ca most often.
-The Unavailable pool is considered to be any P that IS bound AND is not easily reduced. This typically includes combinations with Fe.

So, in places (crops or fields) where the run-off from "Total P" is well into the 100's (ppm); the "Active pool" is still in the 5-10 ppm range. From what I've read, phosphorus is pretty much always "bouncing around" in different forms, both within itself and other compounds; which tends to keep the "active pool" low.

Finally then my question; when you refer to 5ppm for mycorrhizae, are you referring to the total or active pool? My assumption is active since it matches ppm levels that you've found.

(side note: with an hourly drip setup recently and no re-innoculation of bacteria; I noticed the mycorrhizae disappeared on surface roots with P greater than 60 ppm. Something I thought was an interesting note. Not trying to say this or that.....just conveying the observation purely.)

I JUST JUST wondered something......Would it be possible that above certain P levels that mycorrhizae on roots lowers as a result of the plant "not needing them" . Sort of a luxury response.......hmmm. I wonder if it has been looked at from this perspective?

-------------------------

I suppose with the Calcium stuff I could maybe add a little more to the whole perspective. One factor (not really considered so far) that relates to proper Ca to Mg ratios, or better yet "Cation ratios"; can be looked at from only a root surface perspective. The root surface presents a "charge" to attract elements, which most then pass through ion specific channels or transporters into the plant. If an element is already in an ion specific channel or already uptaken; then each ion can be handled with an appropriate process.

-The weakness in this system is prior to an ion getting into a specified pathway. At this point, the only method of "sorting' is via bulk charge (think of volts and static here). The roots present a negative charge on the surface to attract Cations; however there is no selectivity here. If ANY cation is in high enough proportions, relative to others; then those high cation levels can actually "block" the ion specific uptake channels from receiving intended or needed elements. If we consider the static attractive force applied to each cation; then the highest force would be noticed on the cation with the highest charge. Ammonium is +4 but usually in low quantities along with Fe 2+, 3+. Calcium, being 2+ is the first element found in higher quantities and is of a greater charge than Mg or K (more with K).

This is, in part, what is determining the optimal Ca:Mg:K ratios that have been found over the years. Of course this adds to the variables considered in the thread so far; mediums, uptake efficiency, etc.

I don't believe I saved the paper, but I did find one that actually intentionally used high Ca levels with root samples to block all the transporter sites for absorption. I cannot remember off the top of my head if they were trying to isolate a specific element ion channel or observe specific element starvation responses. It wasn't of great use, but I thought it was an interesting way to test.

Thanks for kind words above and sorry to ramble a bit here xD.
 
ClassV

ClassV

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Great thread. I grow in coco, and the relationship between Ca, Mg and K in the medium is still mysterious to me.
 
K

kuz

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Great thread. I grow in coco, and the relationship between Ca, Mg and K in the medium is still mysterious to me.
Ya. Recirculating twice a day with coco gave me problems. Drain to waist every two or three days is working.
 
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