Cal Mag Questions

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kbellfoy

kbellfoy

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Iv recently been reading Seamaidens thread about no such thing as Cal mag Def. Iv took it all on board and I would like to supplement separately. I had a massive cal- at week 4 flower last run. I do not want that again. Thing is I'm number blind (which doesn't mean stoopid lol) Even basic maths for me is hard. I also cannot find any set equations to follow. If I remember correctly the ratio is 4:1 or even 6:1 cal mag. My cal supplement is 15% in strength and I have Epsom salts. . I have 2 questions

1 should I use the Epsom or buy a bottle of mag supplement from the same range as my cal supplement? (Canna mono)

2 At what amounts would I use them to get the correct ratio in either scenario (Epsom and cal supp/ mag supplement and cal supp) ?
Thank u in advance for any advice.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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You can use the Epsom salt. Start at a rate of 1/4tsp/gal. It can be given via foliar application and because it's so highly mobile (the Mg, not the S that's also provided in the Epsom salt) it's a super easy deficiency or imbalance to correct.

The Ca supplement should be used at the recommended rates to start, 15% Ca is a very good number and more than double the amount available in the products I use. I like to alternate feedings of Ca and Mg, so that I can make sure I have enough "room" (in terms of EC/strength) to push enough into the plants. If you decide to give the Epsoms via foliar feeding then you can give the Ca at recommended rates all the way through the grow, stopping around the last two weeks before planned harvest.

Does that help?
 
kbellfoy

kbellfoy

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You can use the Epsom salt. Start at a rate of 1/4tsp/gal. It can be given via foliar application and because it's so highly mobile (the Mg, not the S that's also provided in the Epsom salt) it's a super easy deficiency or imbalance to correct.

The Ca supplement should be used at the recommended rates to start, 15% Ca is a very good number and more than double the amount available in the products I use. I like to alternate feedings of Ca and Mg, so that I can make sure I have enough "room" (in terms of EC/strength) to push enough into the plants. If you decide to give the Epsoms via foliar feeding then you can give the Ca at recommended rates all the way through the grow, stopping around the last two weeks before planned harvest.

Does that help?

Yes it does. Very much. Not a lot of numbers so much easier. Thank u so much Seamaiden :D
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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When people start tossing a bunch of numbers out they begin flying in circles around my head like little birds.
 
clutch419

clutch419

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Most plants just need more calcium not mag.
I found that just adding more calcium made a huge difference.
Example if my ro water comes out at 20ppm (yes I know I probably need new filters) I add 70 ppm of calcium and maybe 10ppm of mag. Solved all of my problems.
 
G

garylee

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If your plants are vegging and not flowering then I'm with seamaiden with a little Epsom salts foliar spray. I would also add a little powdered milk which is an excellent source of Calcium(C) as well. The plants seem to have an easy time absorbing the nutrient from the powdered milk.
 
clutch419

clutch419

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Calcium is the hardest molecule to absorb through spraying the plant most of time it just sits on the out side of the leaf and does not get absorbed into the plant.
Nectar of the gods has a video on monster gardens that explains nutes and there uptake and foliage feeding.
It would be great if they would take calcium up that way though.
This is why companies are coming out with sprays that make the plant uptake more calcium through the roots. I am a die hard on veg&bloom but I still use some nectar products like there calcium it is the most broke down form and easy up take for plants.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Hm.. and here I've read so much that discusses uptake via foliar application. Isn't it the form of Ca that's important? I can't recall @MGRox -- jog my memory, you've learned me a lot on this particular subject.
 
clutch419

clutch419

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I have read lots about calcium uptake and how they respond. The biggest thing I found was when you spray with calcium it stays on the leaves it helps block pm from coming on and also helps with pest control. I didn't get that great of results from spraying it on them Vers. Feeding them it through the roots. The calcium molecules are to big for the tiny little holes in the leaves for the plant to absorb. It's almost like molasses it carbon chain is to big to be used and needs to be broken down more so the plants and microbes can use. That's why I use carbo load in powder form. It has more simple sugars than any other products out there.
I found when I use veg&bloom the push they came out with my plants want more calcium than they had available. So ween I added more calcium to there food and used the push it was a day and night difference. Calcium is the hardest thing for us to give the plants because they go through so much of it. It also makes your buds more dense than before.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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I could not agree with you more about the importance of Ca and getting it laid down from the get go, and the difficulty in providing sufficient Ca, for sure. But there have been times I've given Ca foliars and believed they were effective. It's been quite a while and like I said, I've learned some new things.
 
clutch419

clutch419

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I like to rotate what forms of calcium I give
I start with demerits destiny for a feeding or two
Then I give bone meal for a couple of feedings
Then I like to give them fish bone meal for its calcium.
I rotate this every week and ween I hit flower I use more of the fish bone meal and regular calcium. Bone meal seems to build up in the pots causing draining problems but I give that 1 time a week
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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What if you made it into a tea? You're doing this in soil, yes?
 
clutch419

clutch419

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I am in coco now. But all my clones are in dirt at moment. I had this idea of running the nectar of the gods line. And found out that it is way to much money to spend so I am coming out of the soil and nectar line up. I found lots of good info using that line especially about the calcium thing. And with coco you can never have enough calcium available to your plants. That's why I like the 3 forms that nectar gives you.
I haven't tried a tea yet but that gives me a idea for next time. Also using lime as your ph up works great better than salt forms it helps keep your coco in the 6 range rather than salt based ups and downs.
 
clutch419

clutch419

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I think I will pick up a bag of bone meal fish meal and any other form of calcium to make a calcium tea. Will let you know how that works out
 
MGRox

MGRox

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@kbellfoy Is your Ca supplement Dry or liquid? Does it contain any other compounds (I.e. Nitate)?

The 5:1 ratio (ppm) or 3:1 ratio (moles) is something that's evolved out of agriculture / natural open soils. There are many factors that "can" alter the optimal ratio in closed potted mediums / environments. For instance, in general, Mg ppms in potted mediums are typically a fair bit higher than natural soil Mg ppms. Depending on the level of required Mg for your environment; it may be tough to practicably achieve a 5:1 ratio.
Personally and IMHO, if neither element shows deficient; then the ratio is most technically not important. (this of course looking from a ppm in nutrient solution point of view and not soil CEC saturation).

While it seems that Ca levels in various environments can vary widely along with demands; levels required to show Mg- don't "seem" to be quite as varied. Again IMHO, I would feel comfortable saying that in normal strength nutrient solutions (i.e. 1.2-1.8 ec); I would expect that Mg levels below 25ppm could show deficient in some situations. That 40 ppm would rarely show deficiencies in most all situations.

If you add epsom; 1 gram per gallon equals appx. 26 ppm of Mg and 34 ppm of S. Depending on if you have other sources of Mg in your mix; 1 gram should be fine there.
If your Ca supplement is DRY and 15%; then 3.25 grams per gallon equals appx. 129 ppm.
1 Gram of epsom and 3.25 grams of 15% Ca would net you a 5:1 ratio of Ca/Mg.

Isn't it the form of Ca that's important?
Suppose in Agriculture, Calcium Chloride is the number one form used for Foliar.

@clutch419 Ca does absorb into plant tissues; however leaf A cannot help leaf B. As well it is very difficult to correct a visible Ca- as the plant has to absorb Ca above and beyond regular utilization; when already deficient. These things(along with other factors) can alter the perception of whether a foliar spray is helping or not.
Here's a good paper involving absorption and movement of elements in plant tissues that also includes Ca.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC540953/pdf/plntphys00369-0052.pdf

Of note from the paper with Ca:
The absorption rates of calcium (Ca45), strontium (Sr89) and barium (BaLa140) are closely parallel. Whereas transport from the site of application into adjacent leaf tissue is appreciable, export from the treated leaf is negligible. The almost complete absence of basipetal transport of Ca45 verifies previous reports by the authors (5,6,20) as well as others (2,14).
......
The immobility of calcium, strontium and barium is attributed to failure of phloem transport, and polar movement.


There is a nice chart for absorption vs time too; you can see Ca absorbs as well if not better than several others.
Ion absorption
 
kbellfoy

kbellfoy

1,220
163
Most plants just need more calcium not mag.
I found that just adding more calcium made a huge difference.
Example if my ro water comes out at 20ppm (yes I know I probably need new filters) I add 70 ppm of calcium and maybe 10ppm of mag. Solved all of my problems.

Thanks for that. I'm also gonna add some powdered egg shell for cal too during veg and I have crab meal added for flower. I know cal is layed down during veg so I'm wondering with the massive cal- I had at 4 week flower if I added enough cal during veg?
 
kbellfoy

kbellfoy

1,220
163
@kbellfoy Is your Ca supplement Dry or liquid? Does it contain any other compounds (I.e. Nitate)?

The 5:1 ratio (ppm) or 3:1 ratio (moles) is something that's evolved out of agriculture / natural open soils. There are many factors that "can" alter the optimal ratio in closed potted mediums / environments. For instance, in general, Mg ppms in potted mediums are typically a fair bit higher than natural soil Mg ppms. Depending on the level of required Mg for your environment; it may be tough to practicably achieve a 5:1 ratio.
Personally and IMHO, if neither element shows deficient; then the ratio is most technically not important. (this of course looking from a ppm in nutrient solution point of view and not soil CEC saturation).

While it seems that Ca levels in various environments can vary widely along with demands; levels required to show Mg- don't "seem" to be quite as varied. Again IMHO, I would feel comfortable saying that in normal strength nutrient solutions (i.e. 1.2-1.8 ec); I would expect that Mg levels below 25ppm could show deficient in some situations. That 40 ppm would rarely show deficiencies in most all situations.

If you add epsom; 1 gram per gallon equals appx. 26 ppm of Mg and 34 ppm of S. Depending on if you have other sources of Mg in your mix; 1 gram should be fine there.
If your Ca supplement is DRY and 15%; then 3.25 grams per gallon equals appx. 129 ppm.
1 Gram of epsom and 3.25 grams of 15% Ca would net you a 5:1 ratio of Ca/Mg.


Suppose in Agriculture, Calcium Chloride is the number one form used for Foliar.

@clutch419 Ca does absorb into plant tissues; however leaf A cannot help leaf B. As well it is very difficult to correct a visible Ca- as the plant has to absorb Ca above and beyond regular utilization; when already deficient. These things(along with other factors) can alter the perception of whether a foliar spray is helping or not.
Here's a good paper involving absorption and movement of elements in plant tissues that also includes Ca.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC540953/pdf/plntphys00369-0052.pdf

Of note from the paper with Ca:
The absorption rates of calcium (Ca45), strontium (Sr89) and barium (BaLa140) are closely parallel. Whereas transport from the site of application into adjacent leaf tissue is appreciable, export from the treated leaf is negligible. The almost complete absence of basipetal transport of Ca45 verifies previous reports by the authors (5,6,20) as well as others (2,14).
......
The immobility of calcium, strontium and barium is attributed to failure of phloem transport, and polar movement.


There is a nice chart for absorption vs time too; you can see Ca absorbs as well if not better than several others.
View attachment 544178


Thank you so much for all the info. My supplement is a liquid and this is all it says on the bottle. It's a canna mono brand. I tried to avoid any with obvious nitrate in so I hope I got it right with this. I think I'm stressing so much over this as my last grow had a very bad Cal- in week 4 of flower. I'm trying to get my head round it all but I do struggle a bit as my memory is really awful. Has been since I had a stroke 4 years ago. Thanks again Screenshot 2015 10 20 12 46 43 for your help. Much appreciated.
 

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