COB vs the "gram per watt rule"?

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TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

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So I used to use mh and hps years ago in california, and am currently waiting for my state to pass a bill that allows cultivation for personal use, and in the meantime ive been doing some reading on led and chip on board grow lights. As per my experiences using your old school hoods i had been pretty successful at achieving the gram per watt that most people on the internet stand by. What i was wondering was, would anyone who has used these led or cob lights be able to weigh in (sorry for the pun) with a comparison? It would be greatly appreciated
 
az2000

az2000

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As per my experiences using your old school hoods i had been pretty successful at achieving the gram per watt that most people on the internet stand by. What i was wondering was, would anyone who has used these led or cob lights be able to weigh in (sorry for the pun) with a comparison? It would be greatly appreciated

I haven't use COB LED, but I consistently got 0.8 to 1.2g per watt with low- to mid-grade LED (blurple-color UFO; white-light LED fixtures; ordinary household lightbulbs with the plastic diffusion dome cut off[1]).

For fun, I'll show six photos of my household LED lightbulb grow.

1. This photo shows a fixture I made (I documented how to make it. I could post a how-to). It's holding five Cree BR35 PAR38 9.5w floodlights (the center might be a spotlight). I don't think Cree makes this anymore. I haven't looked at their new BR30 or 40 model.

The matrix


The tent legs have LED lightbulbs attached too. (Something like Phillips 9w [60w equiv] in clamp-on reflectors from Home Depot. But, the clamp-on device is modified to attach directly to the tent leg, and can slide up/down the tent leg. I've got that documented too. I can post info showing how to do it. Again, the plastic diffusion globe is cut off[1].). The far corner pole has a PAR38 attached, like the top "fixture."

2. Same fixture, but with with BR35 PAR38 spotlights (or, at least illustrating how the fixture could do top-down lighting with greater distance). The blurple light was from Gotham Hydro. They're out of business now. I think it was 135w.

5 spot


So, that's six 9.5w floods (maybe two are spots) and two 9w globeless[1] household lightbulbs (Cree or Philips). It's in a 4x4 tent. Assuming that plant is in a 2x2 space, that's 18.75w/sq ft. The 2x2 space to the left of the plant was open. I had another couple floods attached to a tripod there. Later, I attached 2-3 more 9w globeless lightbulbs in reflectors to the tent legs. I ended up running 28-32w/sq ft.

3. This was the plant before harvest:

IMG 20150225 134739


4. The following was the largest bud (with a Caliber IV humidity meter, for scale):

IMG 20150305 162533


5 & 6. After dried and trimmed:

IMG 20150316 133521


IMG 20150316 133538


I don't recall the total dried weight. But, it was from a 2x2' space. I typically got this kind of result from LED.

Caveats:

1.
My impression is that grow style/skill has more to do with yield volume than the light does. I think there are many factors like soil (dense, slow drying vs light, fast drying -- I use the later), imbalanced nutrient ratios (I manage my ratios using a spreadsheet. I don't follow multi-bottle "lineup" schedules).

2. I think gram-per-watt has limitations as a measurement. It implies efficiency, but doesn't take into account the horizontal & vertical space you grow into. I think knowing the w/sq ft contributes to the meaning of g/w. (Maybe even w/cu ft would add more meaning if you're bathing the plant from all sides.). E.g., let's say you live in Tokyo where real estate is a premium (and, for the sake of argument: energy is cheap). You might prefer g/sq ft efficiency without regard for g/w. efficiency.

For example, the guy using 80w/sq ft of Mars LED (below). He might have got 1.5g/w (I don't know). That would be impressive, of course. But, if you can get 1g/w at 40w/sq ft, that would reflect upon what it costs to get 50% more g/w.

3. As you may notice in the photos above, the buds weren't very frosty, not sticky (felt dry like tobacco, not resiny. Not very strong aroma either.).

I have used a few different LED fixtures (expensive, cheap). They all produced this difference in finish quality (compared to T5HO at 40-45w/sq ft, or CMH at 38w/sq ft counting the ballast). I think that has something to do with UV (LEDs don't produce it). You can add reptile CFL bulbs to add UV to your LED grow. But.. it's a hassle. I never knew how long to run them. Or, their lumen/uv deprecation (when they should be replaced).

4. The LED market is very treacherous compared to traditional/comoditized/componetized lighting. If you live in a hot climate and truly need cooler lighting, you can buy expensive lights that run at 20-25w/sq ft.

But, most of what's sold out there needs to be run at 40w/sq ft. There's no reason to buy it (instead of UV-producing T5HO and/or CMH).

Worse, those mediocre fixtures are often sold as expensive lights. Expense and polished web sites don't mean it's good. Threfore, It's hard to know what's worth the money because there's so little objective info out there. Secret-sauce spectrums, fudged PAR readings, overstated watt/coverage areas.

Also: brands tend to create a religious/political following. Just because someone gushes about a brand means *nothing*. I remember when TopLED/Mars was on 420mag. People posted photos of airy buds, thrilled with what they were doing. (If anyone suggested Mars was hyping the watts, and the grower should use stronger light... they risked being banned. Or, if Mars owners used more watts [and got better results], people would be banned for asking why LED was being used if it had to be run at that w/sq ft. I.e., why not stick with traditional lighting?).

That's a tough topic because growing is fun. If someone's having fun with low- to mid-grade LED... (or a predatory expensive brand) why rain on their parade?

But, when someone's making a decision about buying LED... presumably they want objective criteria, not cheerleading. I found that to be a *very* unpleasant realm of LED. It turned into a focus of making LED work. Not necessarily *why*. (For example, there was a guy finishing an autoflower under Mars. The grow journal was specifically about demonstrating a Mars grow. The buds were *amazing*. People were drooling over it. I'm sure people bought Mars fixtures because of what they saw. But, nobody mentioned that he was running 80w/sq ft. That's more than HPS!).

So, I'm just saying. Be skeptical. There really *is* a lot of flim-flam out there. And, many testimonials are more emotionally-driven than objective. For example, the guy growing autoflowers *loved* his light. But, he never mentioned how much that love cost him (in energy, heat). If you saw the buds and the professed pleasure... you'd be immediately sold. But, there was more to the story. (I think it's normal human psychology called "investment factor." When you sink money into something, you need it to be a bargain, perfect, the best, etc. You need others to validate your choice and results. But, it seemed more toxic with LEDs. More us vs. them. More defensive. Impervious to objectivity. The lack of demand for better seemed to create a race to the bottom for the flim-flam sellers.).

[1] You must use a GFCI outlet to protect against electrocution. Open bulbs expose line voltage surfaces.
 
Last edited:
Ina

Ina

2,097
313
That fixture is really cool!:)
3.interesting,yes,they don't have so much trichomes now ,when you said it......So how were they?:)
I also use cheap leds,especially floodlights but never tried to flower under them,only for veg.I wanted to buy that 300 or even 500 w(but at least real w,not equal) 3200k floodlight to try flowering under it(and it looks kinda like q board haha ) but I 'm wondering about those trichomes now...….:)For veg all of these cheap bulbs and floodlights are very good.Your plant in flower also looks promising for those light that you were using,even fantastic!
 
Dirtbag

Dirtbag

Supporter
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GPW is a terrible measurement. I mean if you veg a plant 3 -4 weeks or for 4 months there will be a huge difference.

Agreed. Total kilowatt hours used for the entire grow cycle including all appliances, lights, ac, heat, whatever.. divided by yield is a much better representation of overall growroom efficiency.
But even comparing just the lights, kwh used for the whole grow cycle is more accurate.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

26,480
638
Agreed. Total kilowatt hours used for the entire grow cycle including all appliances, lights, ac, heat, whatever.. divided by yield is a much better representation of overall growroom efficiency.
But even comparing just the lights, kwh used for the whole grow cycle is more accurate.
+1
 
az2000

az2000

965
143
That fixture is really cool!:)

Maybe I'll post a how-to. I created one and put it on Grasscity about a month before they dropped their "blog" feature. (4 years ago?). I have a copy of it.

3.interesting,yes,they don't have so much trichomes now ,when you said it......So how were they?:)

They were definitely good. (I still have some curing. If you were in my area I'd give you some. I always produce more than I need.).

I should have stressed this in my post. I think any new grower (and many experienced) would be happy with those results using household LED. I had similar results with all my LED grow-light fixtures. Some better, some worse. But, the household LED bulbs are easy to acquire. I often recommend this to new growers because they can scale into it without going big on lighting (and exposing themselves to what I believe is a very predatory market). After they grow a plant (and know they can grow one), and they buy a more typical light source, they can use these bulbs as supplemental side-lighting. They're nice to have as a tool like that. I think distributing the watts delivered to a plant does more than adding watts to the top. And, I think adding watts in mid- to late-flower helps a lot.

So, it's not like a wasted investment. It's just an easy way to get started. A first-timer can buy 1-2 cool bulbs for their seedling. Add a warm as it grows and needs more light. Then another 1-2 cool as it grows, then another warm. As they prove to themselves that they can grow, they can spend more money. (And, these items will end up being useful for supplementing typical lighting in future grows.). Mounting is a challenge. I buy clamp-ons and then mount the socket onto plywood or 1x4 board (using a 1/4" NPT nipple which threads into the backend of the socket, where the core exits). Then hang the board over the plant, or affix it to the side of the tent. I also take the clamp-on swivel and mount it into a 3/4" or 1" (I forget) PVC fitting called a "coupler." I put a piece of thick rubber hose inside it, and drill a hole for a wing nut. I can then put this coupler over a tent leg, slide it up/down the leg, and use the wing nut (thumb screw) to tighten it onto the tent leg (the rubber protects the leg). The clamp-on hardware that swivels all works the same. It just lacks the clamp part of it. The reflector works, the swivel. (I should show a photo. I'm hijacking the OP's post. I just wanted to stress that LED isn't everything it's cracked up to be.).

I also use cheap leds,especially floodlights but never tried to flower under them,only for veg.I wanted to buy that 300 or even 500 w(but at least real w,not equal) 3200k floodlight to try flowering under it(and it looks kinda like q board haha ) but I 'm wondering about those trichomes now...….:)For veg all of these cheap bulbs and floodlights are very good.Your plant in flower also looks promising for those light that you were using,even fantastic!

I just don't recommend LED (for flower at least). It works. It can work well. I was mostly happy. But, something was missing. I wasn't getting the heat reduction I was expecting. The finish quality wasn't top-shelf. I grew with T5HO before I got into LED. If I had never done that, I would have been happy with LED. The product wasn't "bad." But... I noticed a difference in dank (crystal, smell). Jockeying a dozen lightbulbs to get efficiency wasn't worth the 10w/sq ft reduction in energy/heat. If you only grow one plant. Maybe it wouldn't be bad. Monolithic fixtures (top-down)tended to run more w/sq ft. To me, it just didn't seem "better."
 
az2000

az2000

965
143
Maybe I'll post a how-to.

Sorry to bump this thread (especially when this isn't on-topic or the OP's original question). But, since I said I might post the how-to for that spider fixture in the previous post:

I uploaded the how-to PDF to this Google Drive folder:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17eMlIDRQFDN0_0XAyrJyh-44NVBhXLz-

The how-to is in two parts. Part-1 is there now. I'll finish part-2 in a day or two.

Also, in the previous post I said I used 28-32w/sq ft. After looking at my notes from the time, it was actually 18-22w/ft. I did that intentionally to push the lightbulbs. My notes said I got 1g/w. But, I don't know if that's a useful metric. For example, the plant was large. I think I could have gotten more yield from that sq/ft of space. I think the takeaway was that the spectrum was good (to produce that well at such low w/sq ft). And/or that spreading the light around the plant creates an efficiency which single-point (top-down) lighting doesn't. (That gets back to the OP's question about COB LEDs. I personally would prefer more COBs (an even better: in separate mounts) to get greater coverage. I think the larger fixtures with 4-6 COBS aren't the right direction. But, they're easier to use than aiming individual fixtures.).

While I'm off-topic: there is another recent thread (<<link) measuring PAR of household LED lightbulbs (comparing them to CFL, etc.). That member may be carrying this torch further than I did when I was into it.

I appreciate the OP tolerating his/her thread being highjacked. I apologize for taking it further. But, I thought someone might find the previous post through google, and appreciate pointers to more info.
 
TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

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No problem brother, and thanks for all the input guys, it was super helpful!
 
Dan789

Dan789

2,954
263
So I used to use mh and hps years ago in california, and am currently waiting for my state to pass a bill that allows cultivation for personal use, and in the meantime ive been doing some reading on led and chip on board grow lights. As per my experiences using your old school hoods i had been pretty successful at achieving the gram per watt that most people on the internet stand by. What i was wondering was, would anyone who has used these led or cob lights be able to weigh in (sorry for the pun) with a comparison? It would be greatly appreciated
What I’m thinking now is that the real comparison to consider is a grams per kWh, which basically would encompass the entire grow electrical consumption (lights fans, pumps) /grams dried to arrive at what it’s costing to produce the buds harvested...Just my $.02
 
Mr.Juice

Mr.Juice

187
63
I don’t think g/W is a really good indicator unless you’re comparing with yourself.

So this is my suggestion, do a grow cycle, figure out your gram per watt then on the next cycle, do it again try something different, mainlining, scrog, nutes, or whatever, and then compare with yourself.

There are too many variables to have an accurate comparison. Just genetics alone can have a big impact.

In this pic I have 4 gorilla glue #4 from two different seed banks. All from seed, same age, nutrients, conditions etc. I even water each identically to the mL.

For this time I didn’t bother doing much except thinning and trimming the bottom third of stems. Using one of those cheapie 2000W cob fixtures too.

The one in the front right is from one seed bank the other three are from another. It’s well over a foot taller than the rest. It’s obviously a different cultivar.

Edit* forgot to add. 3x3 tent, 3 weeks two days into flower, promix 5 gal fabric pots. AN micro bloom grow, voodoo juice and organic molasses supplement, RO
 
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TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

116
28
What I’m thinking now is that the real comparison to consider is a grams per kWh, which basically would encompass the entire grow electrical consumption (lights fans, pumps) /grams dried to arrive at what it’s costing to produce the buds harvested...Just my $.02

Great insight! I will consider that when counting my chickens.
 
TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

116
28
a
I haven't use COB LED, but I consistently got 0.8 to 1.2g per watt with low- to mid-grade LED (blurple-color UFO; white-light LED fixtures; ordinary household lightbulbs with the plastic diffusion dome cut off[1]).

For fun, I'll show six photos of my household LED lightbulb grow.

1. This photo shows a fixture I made (I documented how to make it. I could post a how-to). It's holding five Cree BR35 PAR38 9.5w floodlights (the center might be a spotlight). I don't think Cree makes this anymore. I haven't looked at their new BR30 or 40 model.

View attachment 880780

The tent legs have LED lightbulbs attached too. (Something like Phillips 9w [60w equiv] in clamp-on reflectors from Home Depot. But, the clamp-on device is modified to attach directly to the tent leg, and can slide up/down the tent leg. I've got that documented too. I can post info showing how to do it. Again, the plastic diffusion globe is cut off[1].). The far corner pole has a PAR38 attached, like the top "fixture."

2. Same fixture, but with with BR35 PAR38 spotlights (or, at least illustrating how the fixture could do top-down lighting with greater distance). The blurple light was from Gotham Hydro. They're out of business now. I think it was 135w.

View attachment 880784

So, that's six 9.5w floods (maybe two are spots) and two 9w globeless[1] household lightbulbs (Cree or Philips). It's in a 4x4 tent. Assuming that plant is in a 2x2 space, that's 18.75w/sq ft. The 2x2 space to the left of the plant was open. I had another couple floods attached to a tripod there. Later, I attached 2-3 more 9w globeless lightbulbs in reflectors to the tent legs. I ended up running 28-32w/sq ft.

3. This was the plant before harvest:

View attachment 880787

4. The following was the largest bud (with a Caliber IV humidity meter, for scale):

View attachment 880788

5 & 6. After dried and trimmed:

View attachment 880789

View attachment 880790

I don't recall the total dried weight. But, it was from a 2x2' space. I typically got this kind of result from LED.

Caveats:

1.
My impression is that grow style/skill has more to do with yield volume than the light does. I think there are many factors like soil (dense, slow drying vs light, fast drying -- I use the later), imbalanced nutrient ratios (I manage my ratios using a spreadsheet. I don't follow multi-bottle "lineup" schedules).

2. I think gram-per-watt has limitations as a measurement. It implies efficiency, but doesn't take into account the horizontal & vertical space you grow into. I think knowing the w/sq ft contributes to the meaning of g/w. (Maybe even w/cu ft would add more meaning if you're bathing the plant from all sides.). E.g., let's say you live in Tokyo where real estate is a premium (and, for the sake of argument: energy is cheap). You might prefer g/sq ft efficiency without regard for g/w. efficiency.

For example, the guy using 80w/sq ft of Mars LED (below). He might have got 1.5g/w (I don't know). That would be impressive, of course. But, if you can get 1g/w at 40w/sq ft, that would reflect upon what it costs to get 50% more g/w.

3. As you may notice in the photos above, the buds weren't very frosty, not sticky (felt dry like tobacco, not resiny. Not very strong aroma either.).

I have used a few different LED fixtures (expensive, cheap). They all produced this difference in finish quality (compared to T5HO at 40-45w/sq ft, or CMH at 38w/sq ft counting the ballast). I think that has something to do with UV (LEDs don't produce it). You can add reptile CFL bulbs to add UV to your LED grow. But.. it's a hassle. I never knew how long to run them. Or, their lumen/uv deprecation (when they should be replaced).

4. The LED market is very treacherous compared to traditional/comoditized/componetized lighting. If you live in a hot climate and truly need cooler lighting, you can buy expensive lights that run at 20-25w/sq ft.

But, most of what's sold out there needs to be run at 40w/sq ft. There's no reason to buy it (instead of UV-producing T5HO and/or CMH).

Worse, those mediocre fixtures are often sold as expensive lights. Expense and polished web sites don't mean it's good. Threfore, It's hard to know what's worth the money because there's so little objective info out there. Secret-sauce spectrums, fudged PAR readings, overstated watt/coverage areas.

Also: brands tend to create a religious/political following. Just because someone gushes about a brand means *nothing*. I remember when TopLED/Mars was on 420mag. People posted photos of airy buds, thrilled with what they were doing. (If anyone suggested Mars was hyping the watts, and the grower should use stronger light... they risked being banned. Or, if Mars owners used more watts [and got better results], people would be banned for asking why LED was being used if it had to be run at that w/sq ft. I.e., why not stick with traditional lighting?).

That's a tough topic because growing is fun. If someone's having fun with low- to mid-grade LED... (or a predatory expensive brand) why rain on their parade?

But, when someone's making a decision about buying LED... presumably they want objective criteria, not cheerleading. I found that to be a *very* unpleasant realm of LED. It turned into a focus of making LED work. Not necessarily *why*. (For example, there was a guy finishing an autoflower under Mars. The grow journal was specifically about demonstrating a Mars grow. The buds were *amazing*. People were drooling over it. I'm sure people bought Mars fixtures because of what they saw. But, nobody mentioned that he was running 80w/sq ft. That's more than HPS!).

So, I'm just saying. Be skeptical. There really *is* a lot of flim-flam out there. And, many testimonials are more emotionally-driven than objective. For example, the guy growing autoflowers *loved* his light. But, he never mentioned how much that love cost him (in energy, heat). If you saw the buds and the professed pleasure... you'd be immediately sold. But, there was more to the story. (I think it's normal human psychology called "investment factor." When you sink money into something, you need it to be a bargain, perfect, the best, etc. You need others to validate your choice and results. But, it seemed more toxic with LEDs. More us vs. them. More defensive. Impervious to objectivity. The lack of demand for better seemed to create a race to the bottom for the flim-flam sellers.).

[1] You must use a GFCI outlet to protect against electrocution. Open bulbs expose line voltage surfaces.



I would be interested to see a sample of your spreadsheet, its something I've considered before but never acted on. Also, spot on about the testimonials, I also think pride has a fact in the matter. One of my favorite quotes: "Every grower in Humboldt is the best grower in the world. Just ask them they'll tell you". So I do see your point. Thanks man, I appreciate the input
 
az2000

az2000

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143
I would be interested to see a sample of your spreadsheet, its something I've considered before but never acted on.

The spreadsheet is here (<<link). A subdirectory contains the "product spreadsheets," which might contain products you're looking to compare. They can be copied into the mixer spreadsheet. (However, product formulations may change over time. I noticed Dyna Protekt has less potassium today than the one I bought 5 years ago.).

I'd say that spreadsheet was a game changer for me. Previous to that, I thought of nutrients as "so much of the orange bottle, and a little of the blue bottle." The actual NPK ratio (and strength) was some mystery. If I had an urge to be creative (use some fish emulsion because I heard others say it's good stuff), I was at a loss how that "fit." All I had to go by was the label on the fish emulsion. I had no idea that 1 tablespoon gallon of that could conflict with "3ml of the orange bottle, and 5ml of the blue.").

Having visibility into what the *plant* is seeing (the NPK ratio & strength) is like a universal language. If I got lucky and realized "reducing orange and blue bottles 10%, and using 1 tsp of fish emulsion worked well", that has limited applicability. But, if I know I fed 1.8-1-1.6 (310ppm), that's like Esperanza for plants. You can develop meaningful experience (reading the plants). Something repeatable with anything. Switch "lineups," and know how the plants respond to the different ratios. (Or, do like I do: use inexpensive, generic sources of NPK and vary things yourself.).
 
TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

116
28
The spreadsheet is here (<<link). A subdirectory contains the "product spreadsheets," which might contain products you're looking to compare. They can be copied into the mixer spreadsheet. (However, product formulations may change over time. I noticed Dyna Protekt has less potassium today than the one I bought 5 years ago.).

I'd say that spreadsheet was a game changer for me. Previous to that, I thought of nutrients as "so much of the orange bottle, and a little of the blue bottle." The actual NPK ratio (and strength) was some mystery. If I had an urge to be creative (use some fish emulsion because I heard others say it's good stuff), I was at a loss how that "fit." All I had to go by was the label on the fish emulsion. I had no idea that 1 tablespoon gallon of that could conflict with "3ml of the orange bottle, and 5ml of the blue.").

Having visibility into what the *plant* is seeing (the NPK ratio & strength) is like a universal language. If I got lucky and realized "reducing orange and blue bottles 10%, and using 1 tsp of fish emulsion worked well", that has limited applicability. But, if I know I fed 1.8-1-1.6 (310ppm), that's like Esperanza for plants. You can develop meaningful experience (reading the plants). Something repeatable with anything. Switch "lineups," and know how the plants respond to the different ratios. (Or, do like I do: use inexpensive, generic sources of NPK and vary things yourself.).


Okay, so trying to speedread this before running out the door clearly isnt an option, and trying to decypher what the charts mean without reading the in-betweens is just silly. THank you though. I will look at it later.
 
az2000

az2000

965
143
trying to speedread this before running out the door clearly isnt an option, and trying to decypher what the charts mean without reading the in-betweens is just silly.

There is a "readme" with the spreadsheet. It walks you through how to use it. Just 3 steps. Once you orient yourself to those 3 steps, it's easy. You don't have to look at anything else. You just have to add "product worksheets" for the products you use (or want to unravel a "schedule" for).

Many products (and generic fertilizer components, like potassium sulfate) are in the "Products" subdirectory. You should download all those and look at the products they contain.
 
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