Combining tincture and molecular gastronomy

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Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

Just watched the vid. I think im gonna try it out! ive made alot of tincture and oil infusions and i think this will be the perfect thing to add to my arsenal.

One thing to add, If you really dislike the flavor so much, have you experimented with frozen tincture? Its not as efficent at grabbing all the good bits off the flower but it leaves almost all of the Chloropyll and waxes behind.

I follow Psychedelic Sam's cold extraction method
Water cure, decarb, freeze the cannabis and alcohol, perform the extraction
IMG_20210210_124726.jpg

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The top pic is the tincture after extraction and 24 hours in the freezer
Still a lot of lipids and wax
I typically use a PES filter.
https://www.sterlitech.com/polyethersulfone-pes-membrane-filters.html
This level of filtering takes out the lipids, waxes and some of the organic material
However it does not do much to mitigate the taste from the chlorophyll etc.

The next pic is the full filtration with carbon in the tincture and a celite 545 puck in the buchner funnel
The color and taste are removed leaving a potent light amber tincture
You have to be careful of the carbon as it can decrease potency
 
Cookoo4Coco

Cookoo4Coco

So COOL! Thanks for explaining. Sounds like you got a bit more tincture experience than i do! always happy to learn something new. Gonna look into getting one of those filters! i normally use a nut milk bag.
 
Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

So COOL! Thanks for explaining. Sounds like you got a bit more tincture experience than i do! always happy to learn something new. Gonna look into getting one of those filters! i normally use a nut milk bag.

Just tell me if these responses are bothersome
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Here are some pictures of the full filtration
I use a coffee dropped on a mason jar with the center cap removed and the metal screw on part left on so when you put the coffee dropped on it is not the ceramic and glass grinding together
In the dropped I put a stainless steel coffee filter then line that with a paper filter
To top it off I use a 190 micron bag to keep out any big stuff
Then the PES filter
Then the buchner
 
Cookoo4Coco

Cookoo4Coco

Just tell me if these responses are bothersome

The only thing bothersome about your posts is all the money im now gonna spend on filters and hotplates

Im excited to try your method of reducing the tincture and to try out the syrup recipe! The thing i think is interesting about syrup is that most edibles i make are infusions or extractions in a carrier like fat or alcohol. The syrup is more of a suspension.
How does the effect compare to fat based edibles and tincture that less reduced? Ive always felt that the alcohol or fat carrier helps with absorption and bio availability so im curious if the syrup has a different effect.

BTW You rock Tincandtoke!
 
Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

The syrup is closer to tincture in regards to onset
When oil is used it seems to pass through the liver and metabolize slower than sugar based carriers
Oil is 1-2 hours from reports
Sugar is 30-45 minutes from reports
My experiences are close to these marks
The highs are different
Sugar is less sedative and not as long lasting as the oil in my experience
I think its all about where in the digestive tract your oil or syrup gets absorbed

You are right about the syrup being a suspension
If you Google nano emulsions you will get some interesting reading, that's where I started
 
Eskander

Eskander

Seems like it isn't a stable enough emulsion to go into a drink without breaking. Forming really fine emulsions is beyond what an emersion blender can do. You can do ok, don't get me wrong but if you are really trying to get nano scale you need to use an ultrasonic disruptor.

The other thing that strikes me is that Honey is probably going to be a better carrier than SS. SS will go rancid and support microbial growth. Honey will take a long time to go off if you keep the water input low. Honey has enough other stuff in it that it is likely to also stabilize a bit easier.

Your experience with onset delay makes sense. If an oil is broken up into micelles then they don't need to pass the gall bladder before absorption starts and the exposed surface area is way higher so the rate of uptake is going to be higher as well.

Next is sort of a why bother question... You can solubilize cannabinoids in vegetable glycerin and that is miscible in water and ethanol. Sugar is miscible in water but only moderately soluble in glycerin so you are still mostly making a water based SS. It will go into a water or ethanol based drink with no special effort and you will still have rapid uptake like you would with micelles. Is there is a reason to go to emulsifying agents over this path?

-Eskander
 
Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

Seems like it isn't a stable enough emulsion to go into a drink without breaking. Forming really fine emulsions is beyond what an emersion blender can do. You can do ok, don't get me wrong but if you are really trying to get nano scale you need to use an ultrasonic disruptor.

The other thing that strikes me is that Honey is probably going to be a better carrier than SS. SS will go rancid and support microbial growth. Honey will take a long time to go off if you keep the water input low. Honey has enough other stuff in it that it is likely to also stabilize a bit easier.

Your experience with onset delay makes sense. If an oil is broken up into micelles then they don't need to pass the gall bladder before absorption starts and the exposed surface area is way higher so the rate of uptake is going to be higher as well.

Next is sort of a why bother question... You can solubilize cannabinoids in vegetable glycerin and that is miscible in water and ethanol. Sugar is miscible in water but only moderately soluble in glycerin so you are still mostly making a water based SS. It will go into a water or ethanol based drink with no special effort and you will still have rapid uptake like you would with micelles. Is there is a reason to go to emulsifying agents over this path?

-Eskander

It started out as a project for someone who could not use oil and some other products
Someone wondered if you could infuse simple syrup
It went down a molecular gastronomy rabbit hole
What I got was a product that I found very useful and I could control the cannabis taste
This is my last post
I'm tired of all the negativity
If a moderator is reading this I would appreciate it if you just deleted the content
Thank you
 
Eskander

Eskander


I understand the above post
We were trying to cover every carrier
That is the answer to the question of why bother
Tons of info on honey, glycerine etc.
Nothing on simple syrup
Seriously not trying to be negative about this. I take my drinking seriously enough to keep LN on hand to make daiquiris. I just wasn't sure if you had considered other options.

I wouldn't use a disruptor in the KW range. We had a 1KW unit we used for breaking up tissue and we had to rig a switch to turn it on from another room. Damn thing made the roots of your teeth ache if you were anywhere near it when it went on... Even something in the 50W range would probably be fine as long it was a probe style rather than a bath style. You would need to work the initial emulsion into a stable form and then thin it out, all while keeping it cold but in the end, I think you could jigger it into even a built drink just like normal SS.

-Eskander
 
Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

Seriously not trying to be negative about this. I take my drinking seriously enough to keep LN on hand to make daiquiris. I just wasn't sure if you had considered other options.

I wouldn't use a disruptor in the KW range. We had a 1KW unit we used for breaking up tissue and we had to rig a switch to turn it on from another room. Damn thing made the roots of your teeth ache if you were anywhere near it when it went on... Even something in the 50W range would probably be fine as long it was a probe style rather than a bath style. You would need to work the initial emulsion into a stable form and then thin it out, all while keeping it cold but in the end, I think you could jigger it into even a built drink just like normal SS.

-Eskander

I have been doing this for over a year
You would not believe the direct and personal messages I have received over this, pure toxicIty
The idea was to cover as many carriers as possible to find alternatives and substitutes
No good deed goes unpunished

My reaction is a cumulative one
Had my family tree and intellect (which I lack) assailed beyond reason
To their credit at least they used messaging to bash me

A lot of folks would benefit from your knowledge and experience
The hope was to find folks like yourself to pick up the intellectual slack
I am far removed from school and it has been a long time since I took an organic chemistry course so it is all trial and error
Along the way there were people who were knowledgeable that chose to ridicule but never contributed anything
Then I was informed about the territorial practices of a lot of members on different sites
I am just beginning to understand the dysfunctional dynamics

I stayed away from the internet until my brother in law got throat cancer
Some of us are doing this without ulterior motive

Trying to see if the lab processes can be scaled down for a newbie at home to learn
I got this far and I'm an idiot so maybe someone like yourself could post some actual useful info
Just a thought
 
Eskander

Eskander

Nihil novum sub sole...


What their agent is I can't tell you. There are a lot of emulsifiers out there and they are best when tuned to the hydrophobicity of the target. What you are trying to achieve is clearly possible. Just a matter of equipment. You might get lucky and find one cheap on eBay but I'd call used lab equipment dealers and see if they have them at a reasonable price. They are a pretty niche item though so you may need to call around a bit. "Ultrasonic homogenizer" seems to be the most common name now. Was "sonic disruptor" back in my day which frankly sounds way cooler lol...

-Eskander
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

Supporter
This is my last post
I'm tired of all the negativity
If a moderator is reading this I would appreciate it if you just deleted the content
Thank you
I'm sorry it has come to this, but I fully understand how that goes. I know the time and effort that went into the video, and I watched it and appreciate it.

The internet is a funny thing. Its both bad and good. Sorry it's your turn, but for what it is worth I think your contribution is valuable and I would hope you would stick around.
 
Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

I'm sorry it has come to this, but I fully understand how that goes. I know the time and effort that went into the video, and I watched it and appreciate it.

The internet is a funny thing. Its both bad and good. Sorry it's your turn, but for what it is worth I think your contribution is valuable and I would hope you would stick around.

Its been a year of being dragged over the coals
I understand the internet is unforgiving
The one boundary that people should respect is the medical one but I have seen people with terminal cancer get trolled
The posts in the thread are typically not the problem
Its the response in messaging or on other sites from folks who have read some of the posts
Their interpretation of the thread can be all over the place, couple that with inebriation and you get some toxic responses.......for no reason
Then there is the territorial issue which is a real thing
Every site has a set group of members who kind of "police" the site, this is bad because it undermines the moderators and sets up conflict that should not be occurring
Its high school all over again!

Eskander - nothing new under the sun, been some time since I've seen Latin posted
Honestly, we are trying to see if the process can be scaled down
Most folks are not going to put a piece of lab equipment in their kitchen or anywhere else
What I am trying to do is make something similar to what the homogenizer produces
Just a close proximity, nothing fancy
The gums do a little of what the lab equipment does but it comes with the added hurdle of the gelling process
My hope was that someone with knowledge would help us out

I honestly find the simple syrup easier to work with because of the water content
Try to let the current wave of hate go by and see what's left
This is why it is so important to word responses carefully
Trolls look for any opening and a terminally ill family member does not exclude you, if anything it makes you a bigger target

Mundo vivimus!
 
Eskander

Eskander

Ok... I think I have something that might do the trick without being a piece of dedicated lab equipment. Also comes out of the modernist cooking spectrum of things so you might have one already. You can effectively froth things up with an old fashioned whipped cream canister and when that foam collapses you might have a stable emulsion. Let me fire up a test later today and I'll get back to you.

-Eskander
 
Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

Ok... I think I have something that might do the trick without being a piece of dedicated lab equipment. Also comes out of the modernist cooking spectrum of things so you might have one already. You can effectively froth things up with an old fashioned whipped cream canister and when that foam collapses you might have a stable emulsion. Let me fire up a test later today and I'll get back to you.

-Eskander
Yes
I have an isi whipper with nitrous charges
Look at this not just for emulsion but also extraction
IMG_20210610_132156.jpg


Just to remind folks that the syrup I made was tailored to what you could easily get either in your house or cheaply on line
I expanded A little but the syrup can be made with just the gums (xanthan or 210S) and some coffee filters as the only real outside expense other than the cannabis and alcohol

I make a coconut foam with the whipper and once things calm down I will try mousse that incorporates both infused coconut oil and infused simple syrup
Recipe is giving me some trouble, have to take the fact that is is going through a pressurized nozzle into account when you make the base
Everything clogs up
 
Eskander

Eskander

I don’t know that I’d do extraction in an ISI. We are mostly looking to dissolve surface secretions and rapid infusion (per Dave Arnold) is best used in porous targets. I’ve done coffee beans and coco nibs in ethanol and it works great for that. It is good for some vegetables like peppers and cucumber to but those are all intrinsically porous structures. A rapid infusion of weed is going to pull out things you probably don’t want.

I thought I had both CO2 and NO cartridges but I’m evidently out of both. What I was thinking was to get 1g xanthan dissolved in 99ml of SS and to then add 1ml of avocado oil as a stand in. Pop two caps in it and shake it until my arms hurt. Vent it wide open while upright so it will decompress as fast as possible. Pretty forgiving conditions so if it holds the emulsion once it collapses and doesn’t break and the emulsion once a shot of it is dumped into ice cold water then it is probably a viable path. I’ve got some cartridges on order so I’ll try it once they come in. If you want to give it a run in the mean time, when you vent it, point it up and aim the outlet into a bowl that will fall into your collecting container cause it is going to spatter quiet a lot until it equalizes.

-Eskander
 
Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

I don’t know that I’d do extraction in an ISI. We are mostly looking to dissolve surface secretions and rapid infusion (per Dave Arnold) is best used in porous targets. I’ve done coffee beans and coco nibs in ethanol and it works great for that. It is good for some vegetables like peppers and cucumber to but those are all intrinsically porous structures. A rapid infusion of weed is going to pull out things you probably don’t want.

I thought I had both CO2 and NO cartridges but I’m evidently out of both. What I was thinking was to get 1g xanthan dissolved in 99ml of SS and to then add 1ml of avocado oil as a stand in. Pop two caps in it and shake it until my arms hurt. Vent it wide open while upright so it will decompress as fast as possible. Pretty forgiving conditions so if it holds the emulsion once it collapses and doesn’t break and the emulsion once a shot of it is dumped into ice cold water then it is probably a viable path. I’ve got some cartridges on order so I’ll try it once they come in. If you want to give it a run in the mean time, when you vent it, point it up and aim the outlet into a bowl that will fall into your collecting container cause it is going to spatter quiet a lot until it equalizes.

-Eskander
Thank you for time and input
I came into this with no knowledge or experience with edibles period
Just trying to find alternative methods of ingesting for folks who may not have access to edibles or dispensaries
Then I got caught up in eliminating the cannabis taste using carbon and celite
Kind of amazing my house is still standing
 
Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

I don’t know that I’d do extraction in an ISI. We are mostly looking to dissolve surface secretions and rapid infusion (per Dave Arnold) is best used in porous targets. I’ve done coffee beans and coco nibs in ethanol and it works great for that. It is good for some vegetables like peppers and cucumber to but those are all intrinsically porous structures. A rapid infusion of weed is going to pull out things you probably don’t want.

I thought I had both CO2 and NO cartridges but I’m evidently out of both. What I was thinking was to get 1g xanthan dissolved in 99ml of SS and to then add 1ml of avocado oil as a stand in. Pop two caps in it and shake it until my arms hurt. Vent it wide open while upright so it will decompress as fast as possible. Pretty forgiving conditions so if it holds the emulsion once it collapses and doesn’t break and the emulsion once a shot of it is dumped into ice cold water then it is probably a viable path. I’ve got some cartridges on order so I’ll try it once they come in. If you want to give it a run in the mean time, when you vent it, point it up and aim the outlet into a bowl that will fall into your collecting container cause it is going to spatter quiet a lot until it equalizes.

-Eskander
Ok
Made infused coconut oil and simple syrup
Could you tell me why you are adding oil to the syrup
Does it help the emulsion process?

Could you post a link with the exact process we are using for the emulsion
Please remember I am very new to all of this, less than 2 years, so I need all the info I can get

Lastly, I used xanthan because that was the clue I was given to the syrup emulsion
When I contacted modernist pantry their suggestion was 210S, a mix of xanthan and acacia gum (90% xanthan to 10% acacia) I believe but don't quote me

Any experience with thin layer chromatography?
 
Frankster

Frankster

Xanthan is great stuff. Thickens and emulsifies, with synergistic effects with agar and carrageenan.

The simple syrup will be difficult, as the oils from the plants won't emulsify without some trickery. You could try making an agar agar fluid gel (2% agar, 0.5% xanthan gum to the liquid by weight)

I like using tincture to deglaze pans, in any cream-based dish, in pesto, and added to chai. As long as the flavor is good and there's fat for the oils to dissolve in, it'll go in almost everything. The days of weed mayo aren't far off.
Agreed, need something that can grab both molecules and hold it into suspention.

To my mind, the best ones here mentioned so far that hold promise are combinations of xanthan gum, guar gum, but maybe even glycol (vegtable glycerin) or a hydroxyl (-OH) group. You need a reservoir that's going to hold an oil (cannaibis) to a carbohydrate in a water suspension, perhaps even some alcohols might be of some use here... Most of what you've got there is probably more functionally a glucoside.

The other thing to do is simply stir it up everytime. I know that sounds kind redundant, but it's probably solid advice, especially if something has sat for considerable time. Eventually those components are going to work apart, it's inevitable. Depending on the thickness desired, it's good to stay on the chunky side, and letting things set. So back to agar again.

consistently guides the choices here, IMO.
If your trying for a colloidal solution, use the veg glycerin,, and a gum. and maybe a tad of alcohol. Those would be my choices.
 
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Tincandtoke

Tincandtoke

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Some of the modernist pantry products I use
You can do quite a bit without lab equipment
Nano emulsion may be out of reach but the syrup I make is stable, lasts for weeks in the fridge and I have only had 2 batches develop crystals and one got moldy (I believe the mold was from the strawberries I used, they were on their way out when I decided to make a strawberry syrup)
 
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