Cooling a MPB Room

[Lost]

Its not snobbery.. LED's are not what the MPB system is all about. The lighting is one of the most important aspects of this system and is proven over the years (similar layouts with krusty buckets). Show me 150,000 lumens out of a LED, hell show me 206,000. Its all about the intensity, and there is no need to side track an a/c thread with another "leds=lbs" thread. Not the place for it :)

Its not eliteist, his system is intended to be an entire system and if you start breaking it down and giving lesser, then your going to get less. My advice is always to do it right the first time. I have made expensive mistakes that there was no reason for. Almost every single issue I ever had directly related to me trying to cut corners. Cutting corners does not work.

As for the $$ aspect..

Lets get serious. This is a system for people that already know how to grow. If you already know how to grow and are doing it, the $$ is not that big of a problem. You might need to start small, hell I only run 4 because that is what I was able to get setup properly without cutting corners. I can always run more later :)

I'd hope I didn't come off abrasive. :)

 

[OregonMeds]

yea sorry I came off rude myself... And got it all wrong too apparently.

I missed that you were even talking about led's, I would have joined you in shitting on those.

Stupid me I thought you were berating the guy for having to use a window a/c and for trying trying to shortcut the size and use cooltubes rather than nice split system.

Nevermind...

My apologies. It's a bad pain day today and I'm acting like I'm on the rag again and can't think properly apparently.

 

[Slr342]

Hello,
I think you should still use hps/mh vertically but you should also sumplement horizontal 300-600+ LEDs. They produce no heat and can be mounted 3 inches from the top of the cieling. They would be perfect for this kind of system!

Evidence:

Here is one
http://www.invalid.com/indoor-growing/272968-300w-led-vs-1000w-hps-7.html

Here is another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNfm7XSxVPs

 

[Slr342]

And also are we scientists? Are we aeroponics engineers? Every grow something new is learned and the technology and techniques of today will be a joke in 10 years.

There are new things coming out that will revolutionize growing. This systems of buckets is an example. What do you think would be the increase in yield buy putting a 600w LED above each plant in one of these sytems?
The heat increase would be zero so really you are just adding more light that is said to be equal to 2k+ hps horizontal...
I am gonna check it out with this system...
I already ordered a 600w 6 band with uv/ir and 4 colors that should be arriving the end of this month.
Maybe I will do a thread ;)

 

[Lost]

"Also unless you have alot of room, cooltubes get in the way"

in the end cool tubes will be cheaper than a/c ,they rock even better in small areas

and don't cost that much ...but to each his own.

and if the led's rocked so would i jump on them too...

I agree with you the cool tubes are cheaper than a/c in the long run, but if you don't have the room, you just don't have the room. I bought 2 for 15 bucks minus the mogul socket. So, yea, they are cheap. I might throw my 2 1500's into cool tubes for the next run, but that is a much bigger room :)

Whats wrong with window a/c's, I still use a 1 ton :)

SLR - Were are not scientists but that does not mean we cannot use a scientific approach. Thats why I started the flow thread. Thats nuts and bolts stuff people can use to design a system. A good baseline that we know works. We can expand from there and that is how we will blow shit away in 10 years from what we are doing today.

The leds time after time have shown that they can work, but nothing replaces intensity. Your spectrum can be whack (HPS), but if its bright enough, it will work and most likely wok well.. Brightness/intensity has proved time and again to trump spectrum for yields. Not talking potency, but one could argue a bigger bud is more potent, or not..

Also I have heard (dunno if its true..) that alot of times these led grows are done by the people selling them, and at that point I wonder how legit the grow really is.

OM - i've been sick the last few days so if im a bit grumpy its because im in pain and I get snippy sometimes. My Apologies :)

 

[sedate]

I really want to make fun of everyone that cracked on LED's above. But I'll save it. Lost is right - this isn't the thread.

Its not eliteist, his system is intended to be an entire system and if you start breaking it down and giving lesser, then your going to get less

I sort of wonder what features define an mpb - since I imagine people haven't just photocopied doubled's system whole.

I think of it as a side-lit RDWC system. I'm not sure why it has to be an HPS or has to be a certain wattage or 5-gallon buckets anything else.
The system design remains intact - only scaled for size and equipment.

Almost every single issue I ever had directly related to me trying to cut corners. Cutting corners does not work.

Now that I can agree with. I've wasted so much money trying to save a little bit of scratch . . . .

 

[Lost]

Sedate - I agree with you above post. We do need to define this for ourselvs because DD's obviously connot be around anymore to offer his guidance.

MPB's = (my stab at it)

At least 2 lights per plant, no less than 600's.
Min 10 gallon res - Each res must be independantly fed (positive pressure feed, passive drain)
Waterfalls, lots of them..
At least 200 GPH pump per tub..
at least 10 lpm of air per bucket
drip top fed
Chiller and a/c environment

You get the idea. Probablly needs to be its own thread...

 

[Boots Sugarleaf]

Sedate - I agree with you above post. We do need to define this for ourselvs because DD's obviously connot be around anymore to offer his guidance.
...........
...........
Probablly needs to be its own thread...

JK's bucket discussion thread is a good place, IMO

it is great to bounce ideas around, cause fact is, lotsa stuff works and DD's is a modified version of quite a few systems, heath's and krusty's designs come to mind

most real med patients I know can't afford a 2 ton ac dedicated, let alone the power bill, and can't afford led's either for that matter, so mods that make life easier for a real med patient on a budget is a real serious consideration, I don't mean cut corners, I mean modified systems...all things considered

most med patients (not cash croppers) have maybe room/ability for 2 lights

just my empathy from first hand experience with lots of good people that can't afford 10 to 20K to start up

sorry for cluttering the thread more

be well!

 

[t.o.med]

Hello,
I think you should still use hps/mh vertically but you should also sumplement horizontal 300-600+ LEDs. They produce no heat and can be mounted 3 inches from the top of the cieling. They would be perfect for this kind of system!

Evidence:

Here is one
http://www.invalid.com/indoor-growing/272968-300w-led-vs-1000w-hps-7.html

Here is another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNfm7XSxVPs

you still havent shown me a 300 or 600 outperforming a 1000w. i dont doubt the technology might get there but i dont think its there yet. sorry if i came off harsh didnt mean too. on the subject of equipment from my own experience every time i have tried to cut corners or try to save money its always cost me more in the long run. i prefer having more than i need than just enough. undersized equipment has to work harder and doesnt last as long.

 

[Lost]

Boots, I totally understand where you are coming from.


On the otherhand, a med patient with a 1000 hps can produce all the herb they need for at least 6 months (1k consertively producing 1.5 pounds, smoking 1 oz a week) without MPB's.

I started with 5 gallon dwc buckets and worked my way up. Would you really reccommend a MPB for a first time grower? I would only say yes if someone has a good amount of cash saved up for it and does not mind a sharp learning curve.

Honestly, if someone had absorbed all of the info in these threads and the deleted dd's posts, then yea, you could do it, but you cannot cut corners. I guess what gets a response from me is I see people trying to cut corners to make it cheaper and smaller and then its not really a MPB anymore is it?

:)

 

[Boots Sugarleaf]

Boots, I totally understand where you are coming from.


On the otherhand, a med patient with a 1000 hps can produce all the herb they need for at least 6 months (1k consertively producing 1.5 pounds, smoking 1 oz a week) without MPB's.

I started with 5 gallon dwc buckets and worked my way up. Would you really reccommend a MPB for a first time grower? I would only say yes if someone has a good amount of cash saved up for it and does not mind a sharp learning curve.

Honestly, if someone had absorbed all of the info in these threads and the deleted dd's posts, then yea, you could do it, but you cannot cut corners. I guess what gets a response from me is I see people trying to cut corners to make it cheaper and smaller and then its not really a MPB anymore is it?

:)

I completely agree! That is why I am not posting my mods to the designs lately. But I am having fun!

I guess what I feel is that the bucket is called "Medical Patient Bucket". But this system will rarely fit the real scenario med patient. I enjoy bucket designs/discussions!

 

[chrometrichs]

I think the mpb's are like the mercedes of the grow world. There are few different models with ranging price tags from reasonable to ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to cut corners and save some money when setting up this system. Here are some of the corners I think you can cut...
-$500 for quick connect fittings or $30 in ebb/flow fittings
-canadian 18gal tubs ~$30 or home depot tubs $12
-buy a 1/4 hp chiller vs 1/2 hp chiller and run pumps inline, reservoir outside the room
-run cool tubes and save some money on your a/c,
-find used equipment at a great discount; ballasts, reservoirs, pumps, co2 monitors, tri-meters, fans, etc..

There are many different takes on the mpb now, some people are having great results without running sealed rooms with co2 and a/c. There results won't knock off any of the bars DD's has raised so high, but these guys can always upgrade there rooms later as they learn the quirks of this system. However, I still agree with you Lost, this is not the best system to try for a first timer. The learning curve is just too steep.

 

[mrdizzle]

canaguy
I think you'll be all set with cooltubes and a 12,000btu window unit, a portable waste a lot of co2. if you want a powerful cheap fan for the cooltubes try a 10in hydrofran booster fan. 661cfm off 54ws, for $65. i just hooked up my room with one, wish I didnt buy that $270 8in can fan 660cfm that uses 170ws for my other room. Ill post a pic of how i just hooked up my cooltubes, works great and is heating my house as we speak, if you desgin it right it wont get in your way either

 

[canaguy27]

canaguy
I think you'll be all set with cooltubes and a 12,000btu window unit, a portable waste a lot of co2.

that is more along the lines of what i was thinking. a friend of mine runs 8 600w sealed off from the room and has a small ac unit.

I am not cutting corners, I am just scaling down the system. DDs has a huge ac because he runs bare bulbs. I think long term the cool tubes are worth it because they save on AC and power.

I just hate paying $90 bucks for a tube of glass. I have been in contact with several glass makes to make the tubes. The pyrex DIY tubes are too small imho. We'll see. :cool0044:

 

[OregonMeds]

LED's and heat are closely enough related that Ima ignore the request not to comment on them and just say you can't pull of vertical greatness with led's that only work in horizontal arrays. The physics don't work out, think about it... The benefits of vertical lighting is using the light put out on all sides of one intense light source, and that isn't possible with led and never will be.

LED technology would have to vastly surpass hps before this would make sense, don't hold your breath.

Even if they work as supplemental/corner lighting more efficiently now (which they don't) I wouldn't advocate them over hid's even for that, they just don't fit this grow style period, never will. Either the plants are paying your power bill or they aren't...Or mpb's are appropriate for you, or they aren't...

Strap a $20,000 custom made K&N air filter on your Ferrari, just for that little extra sparkle.

 

[Dirty White Boy]

Is there really talk about LED's. Un fuggin real, LMAO! Someone needs to get smacked in the damn head. Please stop using MPB system and vertical lighting in the same thread as LED, LMAO!! cant even say that without just shaking my head. like damn are we serious here people..... really shows where everyone is experience and skill wise, im surprised no one has said shut the hell up with the led talk already. Silly silly silly.

Otoe

 

[sedate]

because DD's obviously connot be around anymore to offer his guidance

Why? Is he gone?

I started with 5 gallon dwc buckets and worked my way up. Would you really reccommend a MPB for a first time grower? I would only say yes if someone has a good amount of cash saved up for it and does not mind a sharp learning curve.

This is exactly my plan - I've been a soil grower for years - but alot of that was underground so I never really bothered to invest in anything since I wasn't trying to have any sort of profile.

I still agree with you Lost, this is not the best system to try for a first timer. The learning curve is just too steep.

Agreed.

As a technical matter, I didn't think hydroponics would be difficult at all - but in practice 'steep learning curve' hardly does it justice. I can't even begin to list all the hiccups since I started. I'm usually pretty good at shit like this.

I would never, ever, under any circumstances, recommend a RDWC system even approaching this complexity without multiple grows under ones' belt - well armed with a bank account or not.

really shows where everyone is experience and skill wise, im surprised no one has said shut the hell up with the led talk already

The ability to successfully plumb and construct a complicated RDWC system with thousands of dollars worth of equipment - and an abstract, technical understanding of LED's versus other lighting - have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

The adults in the room have already dropped the LED thing.

 

[Dirty White Boy]

:icon_cookie::mysterymachine::character0029:lol, my apoligies....cartoons are on YAYYYY! gotta run.

 

[TyKaycha]

My apologies....I'm acting like I'm on the rag again and can't think properly apparently.

Hahaha! No worries! This paragraph had me cracking up! :D

 

[Apache69]

Why? Is he gone?



This is exactly my plan - I've been a soil grower for years - but alot of that was underground so I never really bothered to invest in anything since I wasn't trying to have any sort of profile.



Agreed.

As a technical matter, I didn't think hydroponics would be difficult at all - but in practice 'steep learning curve' hardly does it justice. I can't even begin to list all the hiccups since I started. I'm usually pretty good at shit like this.

I would never, ever, under any circumstances, recommend a RDWC system even approaching this complexity without multiple grows under ones' belt - well armed with a bank account or not.



The ability to successfully plumb and construct a complicated RDWC system with thousands of dollars worth of equipment - and an abstract, technical understanding of LED's versus other lighting - have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

The adults in the room have already dropped the LED thing.

What about if you are only running a couple of plants? I would think that if one was to run one or say two plants it would be not nearly the cost and a good entry into this system.

Cheers,

Apache