Dark Green, Clawing leaves, bone dry soil

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Ind

Ind

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And run off is key to keeping salts down as well
Is there a table you can recommend that would tell me what my run off should be? I'm wondering if I should add some cal/mag etc. during my next watering. Though I do have 4-4-4 in my weird mixture....
 
Ind

Ind

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I made fancy soil like that once and it didn't go so well. I bet you will be able to keep them alive until you can get them in the ground. You might want to look into how much light you are hitting them with too.
I don't have a light meter, I just go by their response and the guide that came with my LEDs. Too much light and they start to curl upward right?
 
breedwheel

breedwheel

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I don't have a light meter, I just go by their response and the guide that came with my LEDs. Too much light and they start to curl upward right?
With new LED light my plants were drooping considerably long before lights out looking like they were hungry--I was learning to use it. A little before they sleep is normal but not five hours. They do also curl and claw but mine didn't do it after the drooping. Thought I had a watering issue
I don't have a light meter, I just go by their response and the guide that came with my LEDs. Too much light and they start to curl upward right?
What light and how far away? I threw that in there because it looked familiar to me. I do think your issue is watering/soil. I would keep a cup of dry soil in my tent when I had a ton of plants like you do because my mind would play tricks with my when I would be feeling them my weight--not that I was smoking and growing at the same time. I wouldn't let your soil mixture dry out ever because of your ratio and it will be a learning curve on how much they drink. I would also recommend getting a good pH pen---I feel this is an essential tool for learning and not causing problems. I quit fooling with runoff pH and ppm a long time ago. I don't see how you can get accurate readings on runoff unless your drain trays are constantly cleaned and dry. It seemed I would be chasing my tail when looking at runoff but that could just be me. I like the wire cage you built for yours.
If those were mine I would do nothing but pH's water for a few days--make sure they are drinking and responding. With the ocean forest, 4-4-4, castings, and recharge at their age and size they can go a few days without anything.
 
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Oldchucky

Oldchucky

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If none of this other stuff works, and they were mine, I would transplant three of them into straight FFOF with some perlite and see if you get a positive response. Maybe into 1 gallon cloth pots. If you’d like the results, you could transplant the rest of them in a couple of hours and enjoy some smooth sailing till they go outdoors. Fear not, the transplant! Good luck.
 
Ind

Ind

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With new LED light my plants were drooping considerably long before lights out looking like they were hungry--I was learning to use it. A little before they sleep is normal but not five hours. They do also curl and claw but mine didn't do it after the drooping. Thought I had a watering issue

What light and how far away? I threw that in there because it looked familiar to me. I do think your issue is watering/soil. I would keep a cup of dry soil in my tent when I had a ton of plants like you do because my mind would play tricks with my when I would be feeling them my weight--not that I was smoking and growing at the same time. I wouldn't let your soil mixture dry out ever because of your ratio and it will be a learning curve on how much they drink. I would also recommend getting a good pH pen---I feel this is an essential tool for learning and not causing problems. I quit fooling with runoff pH and ppm a long time ago. I don't see how you can get accurate readings on runoff unless your drain trays are constantly cleaned and dry. It seemed I would be chasing my tail when looking at runoff but that could just be me. I like the wire cage you built for yours.
If those were mine I would do nothing but pH's water for a few days--make sure they are drinking and responding. With the ocean forest, 4-4-4, castings, and recharge at their age and size they can go a few days without anything.
I have a bluelab pH pen for water, I don't have the soil pH meter, and can't afford it right now. The lights I have on them are a Viviosun VS 1000, and a Famurs TF1000. I have them set between 18 and 21 inches away, setting at 50%-75%.
 
Ind

Ind

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You don't pH distilled because there is nothing with which the acid could react with. RO has around a "natural" pH of slightly acidic due to atmospheric CO2 that makes it into until a certain equillibrium is reached... but it doesn't push your medium up or down it's basically neutral.
You shouldn't stick your pH probe in RO as this will force some of the inner electrolytes out and make it harder in the future to get a proper reading.

You gotta watch drain pH to get some idea of what your media pH is - this is important for proper nutrient absorption. IMO you should aim for 6,2, usually cocos would be handled a bit more acidic, and soil can go up to 6,5, even 6,8. Roots of plants, microbes and N-metabolizing can still alter substrate pH, usually drag it down acidically.

You can see how much N a plant has by the greeness of its leaves. In abundancy they will get darkgreen, then start to claw downwards beginning with the topleaves. In deficiency, the plant will first generally brighten up a bit, later the lower leaves will turn yellow and fall off. The availability of nitrogen has the greatest impact on the overall growth of a plant, so this decides if, and when, you should start adding extra liquid fertilizer.
Did you mean to say I shouldn't stick my pH probe in Distilled water rather than RO water? I thought RO water is what everyone uses ideally.
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

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Did you mean to say I shouldn't stick my pH probe in Distilled water rather than RO water? I thought RO water is what everyone uses ideally.
The water you stick your pH pen in should have some ions in it - I'd recommend you to read the instructions of the manufacturer for this. If you put it in any kind of nutrient solution it's fine no damage occurs. Then, there are storage solutions which are RO + KCl to give equillibrium to osmotic effects so your probe stays how it is. It is still not wrong to periodically calibrate it as when pH pens malfunction and you still work with it your plants will go really sick!

I quit fooling with runoff pH and ppm a long time ago. I don't see how you can get accurate readings on runoff unless your drain trays are constantly cleaned and dry.
Judging from his pics he has a drain and no trays, and just needs to put a clean tray under the pot and that shouldn't impose too much work. You also only need to do this with a few select cultivars to know what's going on. I agree it's not needed and there's hurdles that can lead one offtrack, but to my experience whenever something happens unexpected, best to first take as much measurements as possible, to get info how to draw corrections.
 
Ind

Ind

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The water you stick your pH pen in should have some ions in it - I'd recommend you to read the instructions of the manufacturer for this. If you put it in any kind of nutrient solution it's fine no damage occurs. Then, there are storage solutions which are RO + KCl to give equillibrium to osmotic effects so your probe stays how it is. It is still not wrong to periodically calibrate it as when pH pens malfunction and you still work with it your plants will go really sick!


Judging from his pics he has a drain and no trays, and just needs to put a clean tray under the pot and that shouldn't impose too much work. You also only need to do this with a few select cultivars to know what's going on. I agree it's not needed and there's hurdles that can lead one offtrack, but to my experience whenever something happens unexpected, best to first take as much measurements as possible, to get info how to draw corrections.
So using RO water to water plants is ok? Just not distilled because there's nothing in it to be able to measure an accurate pH? Am I getting this right? I have storage solution for my pH pen and I do calibrate it regularly. I can't put trays under my plants because there's no room under the cheap screen I used to increase air flow. I can, however, take the plants out easily and place them over something in order to collect and then measure run off. That isn't a problem. I guess my question for that is, what are the numbers/ranges I am looking for?
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

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So using RO water to water plants is ok? Just not distilled because there's nothing in it to be able to measure an accurate pH? Am I getting this right? I have storage solution for my pH pen and I do calibrate it regularly. I can't put trays under my plants because there's no room under the cheap screen I used to increase air flow. I can, however, take the plants out easily and place them over something in order to collect and then measure run off. That isn't a problem. I guess my question for that is, what are the numbers/ranges I am looking for?
Distilled and RO is almost, or actually, the same. It should read like 0,01mS it depends a bit on your RO hardware. Even rainwater, there's almost no ions or nutrients in it. Just pure water. This makes actually good plant water as there is 0 bicarbonates or natrium chloride in it but it'll lack the calcium and magnesium of regualr tapwater, so that is where Cal Mag comes into play. Some tapwater is ok if it's soft, and even medium hard tap works in some setups, like organic soil. Hard tap water needs to be dilluted down and pH to, at least, neutral, to be of any use longterm.

What I ment is you shouldn't stick your pH pen in distilled/RO/deminerlized or pure rainwater. Use your EC meter beforeahead, if water reads at least 0,2 EC then the pH probe will not suffer.

RO is ok for plants if you have these types of "supersoils" which already contain all plant essentials including Calcium and Magnesium. It remains to be seen if your mix actually fullfills this.

Once water hits your substrate, it will dissolve some salts and these will make it also into the drain. The bacterias in wormcastings also work on this. It's helpful if the water is at roomtemperature and not cool. My drain EC reads about 1,2 mS and can go up to over 3 in fresh organic soil. That's some false reading due to organic molecules therein. I've had readings with some fresh potting mixes at EC 8 then, plants wouldnt grow much and even showed deficiencies (!). Cannabis can adapt to anything in between EC 1-2.5, above that be weary. Correct pH is way more important, 6-6.5 in your case - but it's also important which pH goes in. Your substrate pH is usually in between these 2 measured numbers. I usually (organic soil, Biobizz) irrigate pH 6,5-7, and get 6,2-6,5 drain reading, and then it's good.

The general problem with lacheate probing is the actual amount of water used can dillute your numbers measured. So you need to stick to a somewhat reasonable volume used and keep that routine. Like, first slowly saturate the medium, then drain out like 20-30% of potvolume. That's why I like slurry shakeprobes as these can be set more accurately. But they require more time and preparation. Drain is quick to do just for controlling here and then.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Distilled and RO is almost, or actually, the same. It should read like 0,01mS it depends a bit on your RO hardware. Even rainwater, there's almost no ions or nutrients in it. Just pure water. This makes actually good plant water as there is 0 bicarbonates or natrium chloride in it but it'll lack the calcium and magnesium of regualr tapwater, so that is where Cal Mag comes into play. Some tapwater is ok if it's soft, and even medium hard tap works in some setups, like organic soil. Hard tap water needs to be dilluted down and pH to, at least, neutral, to be of any use longterm.

What I ment is you shouldn't stick your pH pen in distilled/RO/deminerlized or pure rainwater. Use your EC meter beforeahead, if water reads at least 0,2 EC then the pH probe will not suffer.

RO is ok for plants if you have these types of "supersoils" which already contain all plant essentials including Calcium and Magnesium. It remains to be seen if your mix actually fullfills this.

Once water hits your substrate, it will dissolve some salts and these will make it also into the drain. The bacterias in wormcastings also work on this. It's helpful if the water is at roomtemperature and not cool. My drain EC reads about 1,2 mS and can go up to over 3 in fresh organic soil. That's some false reading due to organic molecules therein. I've had readings with some fresh potting mixes at EC 8 then, plants wouldnt grow much and even showed deficiencies (!). Cannabis can adapt to anything in between EC 1-2.5, above that be weary. Correct pH is way more important, 6-6.5 in your case - but it's also important which pH goes in. Your substrate pH is usually in between these 2 measured numbers. I usually (organic soil, Biobizz) irrigate pH 6,5-7, and get 6,2-6,5 drain reading, and then it's good.

The general problem with lacheate probing is the actual amount of water used can dillute your numbers measured. So you need to stick to a somewhat reasonable volume used and keep that routine. Like, first slowly saturate the medium, then drain out like 20-30% of potvolume. That's why I like slurry shakeprobes as these can be set more accurately. But they require more time and preparation. Drain is quick to do just for controlling here and then.
Heh posted while I was typing… much better explanation
 
Ind

Ind

31
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Distilled and RO is almost, or actually, the same. It should read like 0,01mS it depends a bit on your RO hardware. Even rainwater, there's almost no ions or nutrients in it. Just pure water. This makes actually good plant water as there is 0 bicarbonates or natrium chloride in it but it'll lack the calcium and magnesium of regualr tapwater, so that is where Cal Mag comes into play. Some tapwater is ok if it's soft, and even medium hard tap works in some setups, like organic soil. Hard tap water needs to be dilluted down and pH to, at least, neutral, to be of any use longterm.

What I ment is you shouldn't stick your pH pen in distilled/RO/deminerlized or pure rainwater. Use your EC meter beforeahead, if water reads at least 0,2 EC then the pH probe will not suffer.

RO is ok for plants if you have these types of "supersoils" which already contain all plant essentials including Calcium and Magnesium. It remains to be seen if your mix actually fullfills this.

Once water hits your substrate, it will dissolve some salts and these will make it also into the drain. The bacterias in wormcastings also work on this. It's helpful if the water is at roomtemperature and not cool. My drain EC reads about 1,2 mS and can go up to over 3 in fresh organic soil. That's some false reading due to organic molecules therein. I've had readings with some fresh potting mixes at EC 8 then, plants wouldnt grow much and even showed deficiencies (!). Cannabis can adapt to anything in between EC 1-2.5, above that be weary. Correct pH is way more important, 6-6.5 in your case - but it's also important which pH goes in. Your substrate pH is usually in between these 2 measured numbers. I usually (organic soil, Biobizz) irrigate pH 6,5-7, and get 6,2-6,5 drain reading, and then it's good.

The general problem with lacheate probing is the actual amount of water used can dillute your numbers measured. So you need to stick to a somewhat reasonable volume used and keep that routine. Like, first slowly saturate the medium, then drain out like 20-30% of potvolume. That's why I like slurry shakeprobes as these can be set more accurately. But they require more time and preparation. Drain is quick to do just for controlling here and then.
This is very helpful yet overwhelming. I have a PPM meter not an EC meter. But it looks like I convert EC to PPM. 0.2EC seems to be 100PM. Not sure what you mean by saturate then drain out 20-30%. Saturate as in wait for it to run out the bottom? Then fill the pot again and measure that? Thanks for the help, but I am blown away at how complicated this is. The more years I try to grow, the less I feel like I know. It's kind of insane. Can't wait to move them outside. They all look perfect and beautiful once they go outside. It's about 100 times easier for me than growing indoors.
 
Oldchucky

Oldchucky

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lol! Wish I had a nickel for every time I read that on this site! You will pull them through. probably just finding out why it is not considered a good idea to mix your growing mediums. Hang in there!
 
breedwheel

breedwheel

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I have a bluelab pH pen for water, I don't have the soil pH meter, and can't afford it right now. The lights I have on them are a Viviosun VS 1000, and a Famurs TF1000. I have them set between 18 and 21 inches away, setting at 50%-75%.
Sorry I just saw you using strips. As much as you are ingesting knowledge I am not going to suggest for you to read your light manuals.
Thanks for the help, but I am blown away at how complicated this is.
Not knocking what all said about soil and runoff pH but I think you are probably complicating a little with trying to find what kind of micronutrient will fix your drooping/lockup
If none of this other stuff works, and they were mine, I would transplant three of them into straight FFOF with some perlite and see if you get a positive response. Maybe into 1 gallon cloth pots. If you’d like the results, you could transplant the rest of them in a couple of hours and enjoy some smooth sailing till they go outdoors. Fear not, the transplant! Good luck.
I think this your best advice anyone has given. You will know what your soil is. With everything in your soil now you will probably never know what caused your problem or how you fixed it.
 
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N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

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This is very helpful yet overwhelming. I have a PPM meter not an EC meter. But it looks like I convert EC to PPM. 0.2EC seems to be 100PM. Not sure what you mean by saturate then drain out 20-30%. Saturate as in wait for it to run out the bottom? Then fill the pot again and measure that? Thanks for the help, but I am blown away at how complicated this is. The more years I try to grow, the less I feel like I know. It's kind of insane. Can't wait to move them outside. They all look perfect and beautiful once they go outside. It's about 100 times easier for me than growing indoors.
Here's an example:
1l potsize with soil, you wait until it gets light and ready for watering. Depending on medium used, you need about 0,3l-0,4l to fully soak it. Anything more may cause drain. (It really depends on medium used, esp. coco is greatly different in when to water and frequency of watering can also affect how much you drain by each watering...)
There's a great guide by Aquaman that explains this detailed:

So add about an extra 0,1l water which causes some/most of the previous mineralized soil solution bottom down into the drain. This you measure. If it's too high, you could decide to add another 0,1-0,2l to dillute soil solution further down to keep salt stress away from roots.

Now, for example, when someone doesn't look at the actual amount of water given, could accidentally give 0,6-0,8l (double than needed) which would already be something like flushing and that would just dillute measured drain numbers down.

Yeah it seems you have a 0.5 PPM to EC conversion scale. To be sure check the EC meters hardware sheets. There's also a 0.7 from some countries. They l just measure EC then convert it.

That said, I use a 100ml nutrient cup to irrigate solo cups clockwise round the tent to give each plant the same amount, in 3 steps, usually settle for 0,25% of soilvolume used (I use extra perlite for aeration). Then see by the first onset of drain which plants drank more, or less.

In short:
20-30% of the amount of water you needed to do a "full watering" (for soil). To generate some drain to measure and push the old solution mostly out.
 
Ind

Ind

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I just tried to pH some spring water I bought. It took ten times or more pH down to get the pH to drop than it does when I pH distilled or RO water. You guys said not to use RO or Distilled, so I bought spring water instead. It had 200PPM so I thought it would be easier to pH. I was wrong. My Bluelab pH pen still seemed to have trouble determining what pH it was. started low, then started creeping higher, very slowly, just like it does with the distilled or RO water. So I used the usual General Hydroponics liquid pH indicator drops to determine where it was. Is this all normal? What am I not understanding here. I thought more PPM would make water easier to pH, not equally hard but in a new way. God, I hate pHing.
 

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