Development of cannabis-specific nute formulae (mostly salt-based)

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N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

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Hello, I'm currently working on nutritient recipe-formulaes by using whatever salts I got here, though some additives are organic. The majority of it is mineralic, to be able to use a "base" recipe, that can be stored in a barrel, with some of the organic ammends just added right before fertigation.

This is a work in progress, I hope to get feedback from experienced users. Or whoever has an idea for optimization or critic ("doesn't work this way").

The first is based on RO thus can be copied one to one.
Now the others are adaptations using tapwater as well as it turned out difficult to just alter a single element without touching another.

Since I have good tapwater some adaptations include tap.

The formulations are done in a way to stop with an ingredient if a critical level of a specific element was reached. Manganese for example. Another intentions was to emphasize certain ratios - N:Ca, N:K, Ca:Mg, Fe:B:Mn, and an ability to reduce N at some point without Ca, and to give a bloom booster involving P, K, Ca & Mg.
One main objective was to reach all variations of the main formulae just by doing (preferably) a single step, being that for example, to add another fertilizer and then delute further down.

So far I didn't look at total EC at all as that can be easily altered by just diluting the solution with RO.

Here are the formulaes listing the target ppms, I didn't include Cl, Mo, Ni, Na and Co for the sake of ease but some micronute salt pack states it's there. Everything is elemental/pure ppms, conversion done.

"BASE" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 123
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 159,5
P: 96
K: 151
Ca: 145
Mg: 54,5
S: 102
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37

--> N, K & Ca are at one level.
The amount of urea/ammon to nitrate should cause a mild acidification, which wouldn't matter much IMO with proper drain to waste.
For veg, S & P are unnecessarily high, but still very within tolerable levels. Some growers like to dosage P high already in veg to load the leaves with it so the plant can later feed on it and you're not chasing deficiencies in the more important bloom phase.
The micros are too high for early veg. But I have to rely on 2 organics (BB ActiVera for Fe, BB Topmax for humics and Sedumin Bor Vital for B) as all the salts had terrible ratios. So these are slow release and esp. Fe can be tuned down manually easily.
This comes closest to what I believe could work throughout the grow, just by altering the EC.

Hmm, well I'm gonna write the recipe now down as well, so as to have a clean full write-up.

The above is constructed from:
Calcium nitrate (Norwegian salpeter): 0,5g/l (= +72 NO3, +5,5 NH4, +94 Ca)
Ammonsulfate: 0,11g/l (+23 NH4, +26.5 S)
Epsomsalt: 0,4g/l (+39.5 Mg, +53 S)
Mono-Potassiumphosphate: 0,33g/l (+76 K, +96 P)
Potassiumsulfate: 0,16g/l (+75 K, +32 S)
Canna Calmag: 1g/l (+51 NO3, +8 Urea, +49 Ca, +14 Mg)
Excello Basis: 0,01g/l (+2 Ca, +1 Mg, +0.018 Fe, +0.016 Mn, +0.04 B, +0.26 Cu, +0.3 Zn)
Canna Traces Mix: 0,1g/l (+0.06 Fe, +0.6 Mn, +0.3 B, +0.05 Cu, +0.3 Zn)
Sedumin Bor Vital: 1g at 40l substrate [*] (+0.5 B)
Biobizz ActiVera: 1ml/l (+3.5 Fe, +0.3 Mn, +0.2 B, +0.07 Zn, +0.03 Cu)
Biobizz TopMax: 1ml/l (+0.1 Fe, +0.1 B, +0.03 Zn)

[*] reammend another +1g if long veg or long flower strain
Some of these substances cannot be mixed together into the same barrel, or are prone of organic degradation, so once I set for a recipe gonna have to try these out in a smaller scale to see if, and whenm precipitation occurs. Any help regarding this would be greatly welcomed. I'm tinkering with the idea to use citrate as a chelating agent to help mix more salts into one barrel, but have no clue how to pull this stunt....

Next is an adaptation to my locale tapwater, which has per liter:
NO3: +4.5
Ca: +55
Mg: +9
S: +37
K: +1
Cl: +9
Na: +6

EC = 360uS, pH 7.9
So it would give a plus to Ca & S when used in echange for tap and that could be fitting during the middle of the bloom-phase (during which plant roots also acidify more than usual, so the extra alkalinity would be welcome, as well as this is the time to fertilize higher and to start dropping Si a bit, so it makes sense from some points of view)

Formulae "TAP INSTEAD OF RO":
N-NO3: 127,5
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 164
P: 96
K: 152
Ca: 210
Mg: 63,5
S: 139
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 9
Na: 6
For a bloom-application that would need some PK gradually added to, and perhaps, diluted down a bit as Ca is very high now. The weak point here seems to be Mg lagging behind a bit. It could work is the plant has been loaden with Mg in veg already.

I could now take the calciumnitrate completely out of the formulae to arrive at:
N-NO3: 55
N-NH4: 20
N-urea: 8
N-total: 83
P: 96
K: 152
Ca: 119
Mg: 63,5
S: 139
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 9
Na: 6
which would have Ca:Mg at 2:1 ratio and very little N, kinda like a FINISHER-formulae. Further diluting that may still give the plant a good availability of P, K, Mg, and S due to ion rivalry.

Turning that into a HIGH BLOOM-formulae would see the reintroduction of a bit of Calciumnitrate (0.17g/l) and higher MPK (0,5g/l):
N-NO3: 79
N-NH4: 22
N-urea: 8
N-total: 108
P: 145
K: 189
Ca: 151
Mg: 63,5
S: 139
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 9
Na: 6
That may cause lockout as the P & K are notoriously high and may be just for some specific hungry genetics, like Critical+ and such.

Lastly I'd want to have a HIGH-NITROGEN-VEG formulae, where I would use an urea-loaden garden fertilizer 12-4-6:
Gardol Grünpflanzendünger: (1g per l)
N-NO3: 15
N-urea: 98
N-total: 113
P: 18,5
K: 50
Fe: 0,4
Mn: 0,1
B: 0,1
Zn: 0,02
Cu: 0,02

and mix 1ml/l of that to the formulae "TAP INSTEAD OF RO", but afterwards dilute the whole by 30% RO to arrive at these values:
N-NO3: 99
N-NH4: 17
N-urea: 74
N-total: 191
P: 80
K: 141
Ca: 149
Mg: 45
S: 97
Fe: 2,8
Mn: 0,77
B: 0,84
Zn: 0,644
Cu: 0,434
Cl: 6
Na: 4

Thoughts?
 
Moshmen

Moshmen

Staff
Supporter
7,502
313
Hello, I'm currently working on nutritient recipe-formulaes by using whatever salts I got here, though some additives are organic. The majority of it is mineralic, to be able to use a "base" recipe, that can be stored in a barrel, with some of the organic ammends just added right before fertigation.

This is a work in progress, I hope to get feedback from experienced users. Or whoever has an idea for optimization or critic ("doesn't work this way").

The first is based on RO thus can be copied one to one.
Now the others are adaptations using tapwater as well as it turned out difficult to just alter a single element without touching another.

Since I have good tapwater some adaptations include tap.

The formulations are done in a way to stop with an ingredient if a critical level of a specific element was reached. Manganese for example. Another intentions was to emphasize certain ratios - N:Ca, N:K, Ca:Mg, Fe:B:Mn, and an ability to reduce N at some point without Ca, and to give a bloom booster involving P, K, Ca & Mg.
One main objective was to reach all variations of the main formulae just by doing (preferably) a single step, being that for example, to add another fertilizer and then delute further down.

So far I didn't look at total EC at all as that can be easily altered by just diluting the solution with RO.

Here are the formulaes listing the target ppms, I didn't include Cl, Mo, Ni, Na and Co for the sake of ease but some micronute salt pack states it's there. Everything is elemental/pure ppms, conversion done.

"BASE" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 123
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 159,5
P: 96
K: 151
Ca: 145
Mg: 54,5
S: 102
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37

--> N, K & Ca are at one level.
The amount of urea/ammon to nitrate should cause a mild acidification, which wouldn't matter much IMO with proper drain to waste.
For veg, S & P are unnecessarily high, but still very within tolerable levels. Some growers like to dosage P high already in veg to load the leaves with it so the plant can later feed on it and you're not chasing deficiencies in the more important bloom phase.
The micros are too high for early veg. But I have to rely on 2 organics (BB ActiVera for Fe, BB Topmax for humics and Sedumin Bor Vital for B) as all the salts had terrible ratios. So these are slow release and esp. Fe can be tuned down manually easily.
This comes closest to what I believe could work throughout the grow, just by altering the EC.

Hmm, well I'm gonna write the recipe now down as well, so as to have a clean full write-up.

The above is constructed from:
Calcium nitrate (Norwegian salpeter): 0,5g/l (= +72 NO3, +5,5 NH4, +94 Ca)
Ammonsulfate: 0,11g/l (+23 NH4, +26.5 S)
Epsomsalt: 0,4g/l (+39.5 Mg, +53 S)
Mono-Potassiumphosphate: 0,33g/l (+76 K, +96 P)
Potassiumsulfate: 0,16g/l (+75 K, +32 S)
Canna Calmag: 1g/l (+51 NO3, +8 Urea, +49 Ca, +14 Mg)
Excello Basis: 0,01g/l (+2 Ca, +1 Mg, +0.018 Fe, +0.016 Mn, +0.04 B, +0.26 Cu, +0.3 Zn)
Canna Traces Mix: 0,1g/l (+0.06 Fe, +0.6 Mn, +0.3 B, +0.05 Cu, +0.3 Zn)
Sedumin Bor Vital: 1g at 40l substrate [*] (+0.5 B)
Biobizz ActiVera: 1ml/l (+3.5 Fe, +0.3 Mn, +0.2 B, +0.07 Zn, +0.03 Cu)
Biobizz TopMax: 1ml/l (+0.1 Fe, +0.1 B, +0.03 Zn)

[*] reammend another +1g if long veg or long flower strain
Some of these substances cannot be mixed together into the same barrel, or are prone of organic degradation, so once I set for a recipe gonna have to try these out in a smaller scale to see if, and whenm precipitation occurs. Any help regarding this would be greatly welcomed. I'm tinkering with the idea to use citrate as a chelating agent to help mix more salts into one barrel, but have no clue how to pull this stunt....

Next is an adaptation to my locale tapwater, which has per liter:
NO3: +4.5
Ca: +55
Mg: +9
S: +37
K: +1
Cl: +9
Na: +6

EC = 360uS, pH 7.9
So it would give a plus to Ca & S when used in echange for tap and that could be fitting during the middle of the bloom-phase (during which plant roots also acidify more than usual, so the extra alkalinity would be welcome, as well as this is the time to fertilize higher and to start dropping Si a bit, so it makes sense from some points of view)

Formulae "TAP INSTEAD OF RO":
N-NO3: 127,5
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 164
P: 96
K: 152
Ca: 210
Mg: 63,5
S: 139
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 9
Na: 6
For a bloom-application that would need some PK gradually added to, and perhaps, diluted down a bit as Ca is very high now. The weak point here seems to be Mg lagging behind a bit. It could work is the plant has been loaden with Mg in veg already.

I could now take the calciumnitrate completely out of the formulae to arrive at:
N-NO3: 55
N-NH4: 20
N-urea: 8
N-total: 83
P: 96
K: 152
Ca: 119
Mg: 63,5
S: 139
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 9
Na: 6
which would have Ca:Mg at 2:1 ratio and very little N, kinda like a FINISHER-formulae. Further diluting that may still give the plant a good availability of P, K, Mg, and S due to ion rivalry.

Turning that into a HIGH BLOOM-formulae would see the reintroduction of a bit of Calciumnitrate (0.17g/l) and higher MPK (0,5g/l):
N-NO3: 79
N-NH4: 22
N-urea: 8
N-total: 108
P: 145
K: 189
Ca: 151
Mg: 63,5
S: 139
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 9
Na: 6
That may cause lockout as the P & K are notoriously high and may be just for some specific hungry genetics, like Critical+ and such.

Lastly I'd want to have a HIGH-NITROGEN-VEG formulae, where I would use an urea-loaden garden fertilizer 12-4-6:
Gardol Grünpflanzendünger: (1g per l)
N-NO3: 15
N-urea: 98
N-total: 113
P: 18,5
K: 50
Fe: 0,4
Mn: 0,1
B: 0,1
Zn: 0,02
Cu: 0,02

and mix 1ml/l of that to the formulae "TAP INSTEAD OF RO", but afterwards dilute the whole by 30% RO to arrive at these values:
N-NO3: 99
N-NH4: 17
N-urea: 74
N-total: 191
P: 80
K: 141
Ca: 149
Mg: 45
S: 97
Fe: 2,8
Mn: 0,77
B: 0,84
Zn: 0,644
Cu: 0,434
Cl: 6
Na: 4

Thoughts?
I’m so glad there’s guys out there like you to figure shit like this out for guys like me ! Lol if it was mechanical I could help
Good luck someone will chime in and help out
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
I’m so glad there’s guys out there like you to figure shit like this out for guys like me ! Lol if it was mechanical I could help
Good luck someone will chime in and help out
Thank you :)
I hope I can put some of that to good use in cocos/ (perlit etc) with the genetics of the 14/14 trial to get a better objective comparison field of how they'd grow.
The organic route isn't objective enough for this anymore for me.
(Though I still combine both but the main nutrition will be salts)

Got a feedback already pointing out how high P is... problem is I can only increase K by KS or MPK and don't want S more high (it's also too high).

Excess nutes may make good draining mandatory

and mix 1ml/l of that to the formulae "TAP INSTEAD OF RO",
this must be written: "and mix 1g/l of that...".

Yes, I decided to rather measure some of the bottled stuff too to not having to dabble into weight-to-volume conversions
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
the
Sedumin Bor Vital: 1g at 40l substrate [*] (+0.5 B)
is an organic prilled long-term dry ammend based on algae, choco fiber and colemanite as B-source.

How do I calculate properly how much I need to apply to a medium so it doesn't run out in mid-flower?

I been doing a naive calc like 45l water for each plant for its lifecycle but it's nowhere near as precise as the salts and then there's the speed of biological degradation as well. It could be depleted much sooner or not fully depleted yet on cut...
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
Formulae "TAP INSTEAD OF RO":
N-NO3: 127,5
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 164
P: 96
K: 152
Ca: 183
Mg: 63,5
S: 139
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 9
Na: 6
So I was thinking to do a 50-50% of this formulae RO-tap, that would make:
N-NO3: 125,5
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 162
P: 96
K: 151
Ca: 210
Mg: 59,5
S: 120
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 4,5
Na: 3


but after a night of reflecting it seems like this formulae
N-NO3: 99
N-NH4: 17
N-urea: 74
N-total: 191
P: 80
K: 141
Ca: 149
Mg: 45
S: 97
Fe: 2,8
Mn: 0,77
B: 0,84
Zn: 0,644
Cu: 0,434
Cl: 6
Na: 4
suits best as a starting base.

Because I can use MPK, KS, Calnit or Epsom to boost slightly specific regions but also reduce tap or RO to change Ca or Micros in both directions, and tune down N selectively by less Gardol fert.

So, to use more ingredients for the base formulae gives this flexibility, not only to add something but to not use it to reduce said region.
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
I'm also having to design a medium, and give some value to the frequency of fertigation and some inane abilities, like Cation-Exchange-Complexes.

Medium will be coco-peat with (don't laugh) hand-watered fertigation XD so I'll do large pots and less plants, 4 in 3*3 or 9 in 4*4 tents.

Hmm, although 16*3.5l could be done, with daily watering then.
We see about that.

Medium ammendments will be
- coarse Vermiculite, it has a high CEC and mediocre water retention.
- Seramis, extra aeration and CEC.
- Zeolith, fine grained, extra CEC.

I'm hoping the medium reserves more nutrition ions for the plant in between feeds.
The ratios gonna have to look how it feels to the touch after a full soak. If too wet perlite will be here.

There's nothing against compaction in it, which is annoying.

Then, some organic sparse long-term fertilizer prills have to be embedded, since these contain micronutes and humics, I'm ok with less mineralization-rate due to a semi-sterile medium.

Then there must be a small amount of Calcitic lime, to give better pH-stability and neutralize some of the citric & malic root exudates. I can also up the Mg a bit and demand the Cocos hunger for kations.

The major problem will be to get the pH right. I'm usually using Elementary Sulfur and Peat for acidification, but this is no option here.

Without a counter-anion I actually can't use the lime, as it will drift into alkalinity over time.... :/
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
60808

60809


Ok scrap that idea with Calcitic, it's much too alkaline and the clay or zeolith or both already adds that to the mix

Gonna use green Diatomacious Earth to get my acidity, plus it's more stable and won't affect nute profile much at all

Gonna let it sit and see where it stabilizes
 
Anthem

Anthem

3,818
263
So I was thinking to do a 50-50% of this formulae RO-tap, that would make:
N-NO3: 125,5
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 162
P: 96
K: 151
Ca: 210
Mg: 59,5
S: 120
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
Cl: 4,5
Na: 3


but after a night of reflecting it seems like this formulae

suits best as a starting base.

Because I can use MPK, KS, Calnit or Epsom to boost slightly specific regions but also reduce tap or RO to change Ca or Micros in both directions, and tune down N selectively by less Gardol fert.

So, to use more ingredients for the base formulae gives this flexibility, not only to add something but to not use it to reduce said region.
If my research is correct, Urea is not going to become a form of Nitrogen the plant can absorb in Coco. You can also take a look at Cal Plus to get more Calcium and less nitrogen as well. If you are using something like Cal Plus and Epsom salt there should be no need to add a cal mag product
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
If my research is correct, Urea is not going to become a form of Nitrogen the plant can absorb in Coco. You can also take a look at Cal Plus to get more Calcium and less nitrogen as well. If you are using something like Cal Plus and Epsom salt there should be no need to add a cal mag product
Urea is fully phyto-available but has a passive intake kinetic. I have a new university textbook on plant nutrition and Prof. Dr. Schubert describes that.

It may leach out a bit with the drain, but in N-def situations I may just increase with calcium-nitrate.

I'm still wrapping my head around Mg. It should be higher, maybe even 2:1 Ca:Mg. But that will put S around K levels. Around midbloom I could increase K with MPK, but I kinda would like to increase Mg at the stretch already when I increase the lamp's output...

I can't freely do everything I want, but am already curious how it turns out and if there will be a betterment from soil :)
 
Dr.Green55

Dr.Green55

548
143
I think your way over thinking things, Numbers on paper really mean nothing, lighting and environment will dictate amounts and ratio's, start with N, your better a hair light then over feeding it, if you think your going to be in the 160 range AG Calcium Nitrate will give you better Ca to N ratio, if your lower like 120 use pure cal etc, that wil give you a better Ca to N ratio, simplify, you'll be much further in the end. Really one formula for veg and one for flower is all thats needed in any grow, if the flower formula is built right no need for booster, if you do use them you don't need to boost Ca like you have listed. remember over supplying any macros will negatively effect terpenes
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
Without a counter-anion I actually can't use the lime, as it will drift into alkalinity over time.... :/
Self-quote to act as a reminder I'm gonna have to test out the finished fertilizer's pH drop for a day, and calculate how much days pass until the solution is replaced by the drain.

Unbenannt

The urea can also partially dissociate into NH4+ due to pH-swings, but if that happens for real needs to be seen and tested.

Also drain-EC & pH logging needs to be done and later evaluated in a fine-tuning process of optimization.

The slow but steady uptake of urea could mean that the fertigation-frequency doesn't weigh so much into being a factor of N-availability than nitrate.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Staff
Supporter
25,784
638
Id say ratios are for soil and possibly peat. Soiless and hydro not so much ammonium/ammonia will highly effect the PH as the plants uptake it. Causing PH to drop.

Imo for hydro and soiless you would want 5% ish of that source of nitrogen. Right now your aitting about 20%

But for soil its going to depending on the alkalinity.

I can see over time with that much ammonium PH in soil also plummeting quickly with any sort of build up.

Also i feel that nitrogen is to high and around 100-120ppm of nitrate is ideal. Ammonium is about 4 x the source of nitrogen as nitrates. So imo you need to drop the ammonium down significantly. Maybe about 10% for soil and 5% soiless/hydro
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
Bugbee recommended 10:1 but yeah, considering the presence of urea, I may totally scrap the

Ammonsulfate: 0,11g/l (+23 NH4, +26.5 S)
or, apply only 25% of it.
That would bring S also down, opening room for more Mg via Epsom.

Aqua, how often do you fertigate with 120ppm N?

Many studies pick way higher. I won't do multiples a day, if it can be done.
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

507
93
BASE" formulae: (in mg/l)
N-NO3: 123
N-NH4: 28,5
N-urea: 8
N-total: 159,5
P: 96
K: 151
Ca: 145
Mg: 54,5
S: 102
Fe: 3,6
Mn: 1
B: 1,1
Zn: 0,7
Cu: 0,37
^^ this one could be adapted for high-frequ feeds, lower nitrogen

nullifying this:
Ammonsulfate: 0,11g/l (+23 NH4, +26.5 S)
but tbh... I'd have almost half of Mg than N.

I mean, I could just dilute that formulae by 30% RO and N would be down, ratios stay the same.
P and S is too high anyway.


@Dr.Green55
what are you saying on my micros?

Last month I dabbled with B, Mn & Zn in soil but then had to flush due to toxicities/necrotic leaf tips and margins....
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Supporter
25,784
638
Bugbee recommended 10:1 but yeah, considering the presence of urea, I may totally scrap the


or, apply only 25% of it.
That would bring S also down, opening room for more Mg via Epsom.

Aqua, how often do you fertigate with 120ppm N?

Many studies pick way higher. I won't do multiples a day, if it can be done.
As often as needed with as much runoff as needed to keep a stable EC and PH in the rootzone while trying to maximize gas exchange. Sorry bro that’s highly dependent on the media, environment and genetics so i can answer mire specifically
 
Dr.Green55

Dr.Green55

548
143
Bugbee recommended 10:1 but yeah, considering the presence of urea, I may totally scrap the


or, apply only 25% of it.
That would bring S also down, opening room for more Mg via Epsom.

Aqua, how often do you fertigate with 120ppm N?

Many studies pick way higher. I won't do multiples a day, if it can be done.
10:1 does work, but you'll find strain here and there that don't like it, it can also make media PH drop, personally for me I'd stay 12:1 or a bit higher, also I never said anything about Micro's I said Macros, over supplying Macros will negatively effect terpenes,, If your indoors I think 110 to 130 N is probably your range, maybe 140 but again that depends on light, temps etc, the 96 to 145 P you show is going to be way to high in my opinion as well, 60-75 P should be more then enough, the only thing i'll say about micros is Fe is getting up there, you might find 2.8 to 3 a better range, and don't worry about S if your going to run high on anything thats it, it really has no negative effects even at 200
 
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