Dirtbags Do-over... 🤪 Back to Organic!

[BudGoodman]

Can Canadian Cannabis be certified organic?

U.S. pot cannot.
CLICKY

Zero fucks given, though.
We sort cattle an organic dairy farm... And aren't allowed to feed our horses outside of the trailer there... Because a little bit of our hay hitting the ground could fuck up their certification.

 

[Dirtbag]

Explain this theory to me in more detail....your trying to deliver pure elements (so you don’t get a lock up or bacterial bloom) I get that so far, is there more or is that the objective?

Thats basically the objective. I want to maintain the population of beneficials in the media without causing an excessive bloom of bacteria. And yes the idea is that the beneficials bubbling in the res should break down a lot of the insoluble nutrients to readily available forms to supplement the nutrient demand.

But again, i dont fully comprehend all this stuff. Im just tring to apply as much as ive read that makes sense to me.

 

[beluga]

Explain this theory to me in more detail....your trying to deliver pure elements (so you don’t get a lock up or bacterial bloom) I get that so far, is there more or is that the objective?

I went into a light research about it, outlined here.
Just consumer articles for the most part, but it absolutely makes sense.

edit: Can I call that a shallow R-Hole? I'm gonna do that.

 

[Aqua Man]

In my mind simply put organic nutrients carry a carbon molecule and are not available to plants. They are broken down into inorganic salts by microbes. They also carry I feel a much higher risk of contamination, especially with heavy metals. As It all really depends on source.

Organic is better for the environment and more ideal than synthetic IMO for outdoor grows because of this. Because organic nutrients are broken down over time they are not leached from the soil. This means the are far less likely to ( we'll use the term pollute ) waterways and ground water.

IMO It's about building a soil consistency over time that carries on long term supply of nutrients.

I will concede there is not enough evidence that microbes or byproducts of will affect overall product but I do feel they have a beneficial hand in plant health... so maybe indirectly.

I'm gonna be blunt.... I personally feel organic is an environmental benefit... and that is all. The notion that organic is somehow healthier to eat or consume i feel is absolutely bullshit and nothing more than a marketing scam. Thats just my opinion. I also feel if done right its a very easy way to grow healthy plants. But like I said before in whichever manner a plant is grown I feel the one that can be executed the best will give the best result.

I'm not against organics by any means. I will be doing as @Dirtbag put it fauxganics myself. But I do think the organic industry has filled our minds with bullshit to make a profit. This will include many studies that are paid for by them to support thier pocket book.

Rant over.... sorry DB

 

[Dirtbag]

I went into a light research about it, outlined here.
Just consumer articles for the most part, but it absolutely makes sense.

edit: Can I call that a shallow R-Hole? I'm gonna do that.

Yeah i came to the same conclusion as your breakdown.

I think in the sense of using it for teas or bubbling organic nutrients, it can be beneficial in the sense that it will attract and feed microbes while theyre processing nutrients into usable forms over the course of a couple days.

 

[beluga]

organic is an environmental benefit... and that is all. The notion that organic is somehow healthier

Wouldn't that kind of be the jump in logic there though?
That, because it's an environmental... contaminant, so to say... that the implication is then that it could certainly be a human tissue contaminant, as well?
I realize that's not necessarily a logical connection... but.. with so little known.

I'll reiterate a million times over that my big stink with conventional is the pesticide use. But organic monoculture sees the same shit. Not quite as noxious, but still plenty carcinogenic.
I think as far as plant uptake goes I have zero fucking idea and that's why I'm always back and forth.

IPM and biodynamic are my real jams.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Plus “organic” or “bio” in europe can include different products depending on the countries certification standards.

Then we can talk about different certification standards.

then we can talk about different companies we pay to certify our product “organic”


and “organic” in america is mostly industrial waste products like fish hydrosolate (sp?) that is full of heavy metals and maybe worse.


We humans are funny. ;-)

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

In my mind simply put organic nutrients carry a carbon molecule and are not available to plants. They are broken down into inorganic salts by microbes.

Hmm I an going to challenge this one aswell,
Chicken shit has plenty of ammonium and other available sources. Is that not organic?

An organic compound is often defined by its carbon molecule, but that is an entirely different concept than “organic” food or “organic” inputs. Myclobutanil (Eagle20) is an organic compound, but it is not an “organic” input for food production.

 

[beluga]

Yeah i came to the same conclusion as your breakdown.

I think in the sense of using it for teas or bubbling organic nutrients, it can be beneficial in the sense that it will attract and feed microbes while theyre processing nutrients into usable forms over the course of a couple days.

Yeah, Milson brought up the commercial amendments and their efficacy later in that discussion and I surmised (dunno why I haven't just looked into it) that they added those beneficial microbes to the mix alongside the molasses. Then I got to thinking about my cell culturing equipment....

 

[MIMedGrower]

Wouldn't that kind of be the jump in logic there though?
That, because it's an environmental... contaminant, so to say... that the implication is then that it could certainly be a human tissue contaminant, as well?
I realize that's not necessarily a logical connection... but.. with so little known.

I'll reiterate a million times over that my big stink with conventional is the pesticide use. But organic monoculture sees the same shit. Not quite as noxious, but still plenty carcinogenic.
I think as far as plant uptake goes I have zero fucking idea and that's why I'm always back and forth.

IPM and biodynamic are my real jams.

If we are talking small personal or even medical gardens the environmental impact is too low to matter.

For major food production it should be addressed. Or should i say should have been addressed.

 

[Dirtbag]

In my mind simply put organic nutrients carry a carbon molecule and are not available to plants. They are broken down into inorganic salts by microbes. They also carry I feel a much higher risk of contamination, especially with heavy metals. As It all really depends on source.

Organic is better for the environment and more ideal than synthetic IMO for outdoor grows because of this. Because organic nutrients are broken down over time they are not leached from the soil. This means the are far less likely to ( we'll use the term pollute ) waterways and ground water.

IMO It's about building a soil consistency over time that carries on long term supply of nutrients.

I will concede there is not enough evidence that microbes or byproducts of will affect overall product but I do feel they have a beneficial hand in plant health... so maybe indirectly.

I'm gonna be blunt.... I personally feel organic is an environmental benefit... and that is all. The notion that organic is somehow healthier to eat or consume i feel is absolutely bullshit and nothing more than a marketing scam. Thats just my opinion. I also feel if done right its a very easy way to grow healthy plants. But like I said before in whichever manner a plant is grown I feel the one that can be executed the best will give the best result.

I'm not against organics by any means. I will be doing as @Dirtbag put it fauxganics myself. But I do think the organic industry has filled our minds with bullshit to make a profit. This will include many studies that are paid for by them to support thier pocket book.

Rant over.... sorry DB

No need to be sorry, i appreciate that we all have differing views.

My position on organics, is that i really dont have a position on it yet lol. I feel like all the reading and research in the world isnt going to tell me what doing it myself will.
As for healthier plant.. Yeah thats nonsense. Some of my healthiest looking plants came from promix using HOG salt based nutrients in basically dead soiless mix.
But i do think organic is a more natural way. And honestly part of me still believes that it could potentially produce a higher quality, more flavorful product.

And the reference to the fact that the best product will come from the grower who executes their grow the best using whatever method, is true. But again, ive recently watched my friend switch to organic. He is a highly skilled grower in whatever media he uses, far more skilled of a grower than I am. Incredibly passionate about his plants. And like I say both him and i are blown away at the results he is getting in organic. His yield went down slightly, but the flavor and aroma went clean off the charts. His third run in organic is almost done and its looking the same as the last. Unreal.

So while i am aware that there is a lot of BS marketing in cannabis or horticulture in general, both organics and inorganics, I feel its always best to try things for myself and try to remain objective about the results. But, like most things I try, its usually because ive been inspired by the results my buddys are getting.

 

[Dirtbag]

Yeah, Milson brought up the commercial amendments and their efficacy later in that discussion and I surmised (dunno why I haven't just looked into it) that they added those beneficial microbes to the mix alongside the molasses. Then I got to thinking about my cell culturing equipment....

Bingpot. I think of a lot of things with my yeast ranching hat on.

 

[Aqua Man]

Wouldn't that kind of be the jump in logic there though?
That, because it's an environmental... contaminant, so to say... that the implication is then that it could certainly be a human tissue contaminant, as well?
I realize that's not necessarily a logical connection... but.. with so little known.

I'll reiterate a million times over that my big stink with conventional is the pesticide use. But organic monoculture sees the same shit. Not quite as noxious, but still plenty carcinogenic.
I think as far as plant uptake goes I have zero fucking idea and that's why I'm always back and forth.

IPM and biodynamic are my real jams.

When I say pollute or contaminate. That doesn't mean its bad for you like it can impact the environment. Excess nutrients in runoff may harm some fona flora and help others. Eg ammonium nitrate at even low levels is harmful to some species of fish but beneficial to other like algae and plants.

Hmm I an going to challenge this one aswell,
Chicken shit has plenty of ammonium and other available sources. Is that not organic?

An organic compound is often defined by its carbon molecule, but that is an entirely different concept than “organic” food or “organic” inputs. Myclobutanil (Eagle20) is an organic compound, but it is not an “organic” input for food production.

Question... what is organic food if plants can't take up organic nutrients?

 

[Aqua Man]

No need to be sorry, i appreciate that we all have differing views.

My position on organics, is that i really dont have a position on it yet lol. I feel like all the reading and research in the world isnt going to tell me what doing it myself will.
As for healthier plant.. Yeah thats nonsense. Some of my healthiest looking plants came from promix using HOG salt based nutrients in basically dead soiless mix.
But i do think organic is a more natural way. And honestly part of me still believes that it could potentially produce a higher quality, more flavorful product.

And the reference to the fact that the best product will come from the grower who executes their grow the best using whatever method, is true. But again, ive recently watched my friend switch to organic. He is a highly skilled grower in whatever media he uses, far more skilled of a grower than I am. Incredibly passionate about his plants. And like I say both him and i are blown away at the results he is getting in organic. His yield went down slightly, but the flavor and aroma went clean off the charts. His third run in organic is almost done and its looking the same as the last. Unreal.

So while i am aware that there is a lot of BS marketing in cannabis or horticulture in general, both organics and inorganics, I feel its always best to try things for myself and try to remain objective about the results. But, like most things I try, its usually because ive been inspired by the results my buddys are getting.

100% agree

 

[MIMedGrower]

When I say pollute or contaminate. That doesn't mean its bad for you like it can impact the environment. Excess nutrients in runoff may harm some fona flora and help others. Eg ammonium nitrate at even low levels is harmful to some species of fish but beneficial to other like algae and plants.

Question... what is organic food if plants can't take up organic nutrients?

This is pushing it no? Its about the source of the nutrients.

 

[beluga]

When I say pollute or contaminate. That doesn't mean its bad for you like it can impact the environment. Excess nutrients in runoff may harm some fona flora and help others. Eg ammonium nitrate at even low levels is harmful to some species of fish but beneficial to other like algae and plants.

For sure.
The world-systemic impact is definitely where I see the benefit of turning the tables on conventional practices.
I guess my question and what I, personally, don't think has had enough solid research put into it (if even possible without some crazy impractical generations-long tracing experiment) is the actual detriment that using these things has on an individual.
We're resilient, magnificent creatures capable of processing, mitigating, repelling, and remediating all sorts of shit that might be toxic to us.
But.. obviously some shit's going wrong with the state of health in the world, and I don't doubt for a second that food production has a large part to play in that.

 

[Aqua Man]

If we are talking small personal or even medical gardens the environmental impact is too low to matter.

For major food production it should be addressed. Or should i say should have been addressed.

Again 100% agree. Also organic soils truly take time to build and should never be thrown out.... Doesn't that after all defeat the environmental purpose of organic farming and soils with organics get better over time so yeah.

I still want to give the fauxganics a try in coco. It may be against my own reasoning but like @Dirtbag said for me its more about leaning and trying for myself than about the politics and science.

 

[Aqua Man]

This is pushing it no? Its about the source of the nutrients.

Absolutely about the source. I was referring to the difference between synthetic and organic environmental impacts. If both are clean and by clean I mean generally free from toxins such as ecoli heavy metals.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Absolutely about the source. I was referring to the difference between synthetic and organic environmental impacts. If both are clean and by clean I mean generally free from toxins such as ecoli heavy metals.

i think it should just be called natural gardening or hydroponic (fertigation).


OMRI is a for profit company. Not a bunch of tree huggers.

 

[Aqua Man]

i think it should just be called natural gardening or hydroponic (fertigation).


OMRI is a for profit company. Not a bunch of tree huggers.

My feeling too.... its no different than our synthetic nutes.... somehow its a miracle in every bottle.