dextr0
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What up people, just wanted to take some time out and start up some questions, maybe give answers.
This whole thing really started when justiceman asked me a question on another thread pertaining on how to use magnesium if he is using Calcium Phosphate. Damn good question to which i had no answer.
I had been reading and reading and ran into same ol things for Plant Fermented Extracts, Lactic Acid Bacteria, and of course Calcium Phosphate, and Water Soluble Calcium...but where the hell is the magnesium?
Then Muse hit me up and sent me a intresting link to this here
"I was reading Dr. A Beddoe's book "Nourishment Home Grown". He was taught by Carey Reams that Magnesium (Mg) is something that's over emphasized by conventional thinking just because Mg is the main component of chlorophyll. Instead, he had found that plants can take up all the Mg they need from the air, and just a small amount of Mg in the soil is sufficient for strong healthy growth if the soil is biologically healthy.
He found that often, it was actually Nitrogen deficiency together with low Calcium and Phosphate levels that fooled the farmer into thinking it is an Mg deficiency. Then upon adding Mg, the farmer thinks he had addressed the deficiency because the plant seem to pick up in growth and colour. But soon however, he finds that other problems occur (mainly bugs due to anionic, leafy growth), and now, he thinks he's hit another deficiency, then another, and another... This proves Mg was not the deficiency in the first place, because the plant took the added Mg in replacement of needed Ca and N, explaining why the temporary (false) improvement. This is the gist of how biological ionization works - since everything lives on the energy released from our foods, our bodies (and plants too) will temporarily substitute an element for another just to tide over a deficiency in order to gain that needed energy. This explanation also most satisfactorily explains how a black cow can eat green grass and produce white milk from which yellow butter is made.
So the small amount of Mg for the soil can be gained from using Rock Phosphate, or like Kelmund says, from Ag Lime.
What is more important is to ensure the amount of Colloidal Phosphate (RP or SRP); Calcium and Soil bacteria are in good levels, and Mg will not be missed again.
Tin, I used to belong to the conventional school of thinking, and had been using Epsom Salt (MgSo4) on the soil and later in foliar feeding, before I learned this Reams method. Now I don't use Epsom Salts anymore and find I have better quality growth. (better quality does not mean bigger leaf or larger blooms, but instead, it means no pests, no weeds, no fungi, sweet fruits, less tending, greater consistency)
Kelmund, if you are following the discussion currently on BrixTalk about using Gypsum and Calcium Carbonate even on a high pH soil, you will have read that Dan Skow recommends Calcium Carbonate + Gypsum, even though soil pH is above 6.4. That is because the soil this recommendation was made for, had high biological activity and sufficient Phosphates. With sufficient P and beneficial bacteria, the 2 types of calcium will become converted to plant-usable energy and the soil pH will still stay stable at the ideal 6.4 as a result of this activity.
And for those who like it in plain language without the technical jargon, add Rock Phosphate or Soft Rock Phosphate. Then add Lime and gypsum, and Chix poo. Finally, inoculate with a beneficial bacteria mix like BioVAM.
HTH
LL"
Wow, interesting indeed. And it went with something I had found earlier and had showed Seamaiden pertaining to plant hormones and how they will also cause substitutions and how deficiencies start domino effecting so to say...lol.
http://www.pruittfamily.com/paul/plants.htm
"The idea is that a cell experiencing a deficiency in one of the four classes of nutrients is no longer able to sustain itself or do so for very long. The signal first tries to address the nutrient shortfall by using stores of the nutrients. Being unsuccessful at that, and with an increase in the level or amount of the signal the cell attempts to address the shortfall by changing the behavior of nearby cells and cells at the opposite end of the plant if they are responsible normally for harvesting that nutrient. Finally if that doesn't fix the problem, the cell decides to senesce accompanied by critically high level of deficiency hormone, a point of no return as it were. Perhaps deficiency signal levels are directly related to the size of the nutrient shortfall and second and third stages of deficiency are not reached if the amount of the deficiency stays at a low chronic level.
The positive feedback comes in because at the third stage, high levels deficiency hormones actually push nutrients out of the cells experiencing the deficiency. Also it is not just their own respective nutrient that the hormone pushes out, but it pushes out all four classes of nutrients. As you can imagine once one hormone is pushing out all the types of nutrients, it soon begins synthesizing other deficiency hormones, which just snowballs the process, finally leading to a condition of high level of all four nutrient deficiency hormones and little or no nutrients left except a cellulose skeleton of where the cell used to be."
So that helps understand how plants substitute one substance for another in need, and how if you foliar feed a plant they may not need mag it may get better but in the long run was just a substitute that should have been filled back in.
All the while im still looking for a organic source of Mag other than Epsom salts...idk why so dont ask.
I go to Seas' thread and check it out because I remember she had said this:
"Sounds like how I ended up doing it without knowing what I was doing or why." After reading the above.
Well I still knocked around for a bit and every thing im finding Epsom Salt in all organic Fertilizers...then I run into this post by true grit:
Originally Posted by cemchris View Post
I noticed that moving from botanicare calmg to the general organic on I had to bump it up quite a bit. Botanicare I would run about 5-7ml per gallon. The GO I run at 10-15ml per gallon.
Yes I noticed this too. I was up around 12-14ml/g with the GO CaMg+. And it took at least 12ml/g to make em happy. Botanicare they were happy around 7-10ml/g.
Originally Posted by 2broke2smoke View Post
i have been using botanacare cal-mag for about 7 years no problems at all , why would u change if it was working well?
2b2s
Folks are just trying to expand to those "organic" options!
I have to agree with Ent- I think its just a bit light on nitrogen a bit early. If you kept the GO CaMg+ at the same rate you were feeding at the beginnin of flower then you would probably need to up that to a lil. Like jaybee said I was up past 10ml/g before they were happy with the GO. Stuff worked great but having to use so much I went through it like crazy- not as efficient as others.
Ya do have quite a bit going on there, but sticking with one brand isn't a big deal. Check out the Calplex (not sure by who). its organic too and no mg. I use other boosters that have Mg and from runnin nutes, haven't really found a base nute lacking in it yet, and since switching to Calplex I have seen '0' mg deficiencies...
Well when I read this I was like cool mane, I know Calplex cuz its an organic source and whats in it is water solible calcium. I just read how to make that through fermentation. Eggshells and Brown Rice Vinegar all u need...but still What about magnesium?....Wait didnt Realms say mag is over emphisized??
"He was taught by Carey Reams that Magnesium (Mg) is something that's over emphasized by conventional thinking just because Mg is the main component of chlorophyll. Instead, he had found that plants can take up all the Mg they need from the air, and just a small amount of Mg in the soil is sufficient for strong healthy growth if the soil is biologically healthy.
He found that often, it was actually Nitrogen deficiency together with low Calcium and Phosphate levels that fooled the farmer into thinking it is an Mg deficiency. Then upon adding Mg, the farmer thinks he had addressed the deficiency because the plant seem to pick up in growth and colour. But soon however, he finds that other problems occur (mainly bugs due to anionic, leafy growth), and now, he thinks he's hit another deficiency, then another, and another... This proves Mg was not the deficiency in the first place, because the plant took the added Mg in replacement of needed Ca and N, explaining why the temporary (false) improvement. This is the gist of how biological ionization works - since everything lives on the energy released from our foods, our bodies (and plants too) will temporarily substitute an element for another just to tide over a deficiency in order to gain that needed energy"
mainly bugs due to anionic, leafy growth....Here he is saying that because you used magnesium which is in anionic for (Epsom salts) added to plant and caused green growth during flowering because it was used as a substitute instead of what it really needed.
Which reminded me of this.
A FINAL THOUGHT ON FERTILIZERS
Following is a basic law of nature that is so often over looked. Many times farmers' success and failure stories don't agree because of varied
soil conditions, various fertilizer mixes, etc.
Here is a basic nature law to consider:
ANIONIC (-) plant food makes growth and CATIONIC ( + ) plant food makes fruit. There are three elements called ISOTOPES, which can be
either ANIONIC or CATIONIC. They are hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. The ANIONIC form of nitrogen is NO 3 (nitrate) and the CATIONIC form
is NH3 (ammonia). With this basic law all fertilizer can be grouped for needed growth, or fruit production.
Also, ANIONIC nutrients move into a plant quicker than CATIONIC. All organic materials of high carbon content are always CATIONIC (for fruit
set and production).
This whole thing really started when justiceman asked me a question on another thread pertaining on how to use magnesium if he is using Calcium Phosphate. Damn good question to which i had no answer.
I had been reading and reading and ran into same ol things for Plant Fermented Extracts, Lactic Acid Bacteria, and of course Calcium Phosphate, and Water Soluble Calcium...but where the hell is the magnesium?
Then Muse hit me up and sent me a intresting link to this here
"I was reading Dr. A Beddoe's book "Nourishment Home Grown". He was taught by Carey Reams that Magnesium (Mg) is something that's over emphasized by conventional thinking just because Mg is the main component of chlorophyll. Instead, he had found that plants can take up all the Mg they need from the air, and just a small amount of Mg in the soil is sufficient for strong healthy growth if the soil is biologically healthy.
He found that often, it was actually Nitrogen deficiency together with low Calcium and Phosphate levels that fooled the farmer into thinking it is an Mg deficiency. Then upon adding Mg, the farmer thinks he had addressed the deficiency because the plant seem to pick up in growth and colour. But soon however, he finds that other problems occur (mainly bugs due to anionic, leafy growth), and now, he thinks he's hit another deficiency, then another, and another... This proves Mg was not the deficiency in the first place, because the plant took the added Mg in replacement of needed Ca and N, explaining why the temporary (false) improvement. This is the gist of how biological ionization works - since everything lives on the energy released from our foods, our bodies (and plants too) will temporarily substitute an element for another just to tide over a deficiency in order to gain that needed energy. This explanation also most satisfactorily explains how a black cow can eat green grass and produce white milk from which yellow butter is made.
So the small amount of Mg for the soil can be gained from using Rock Phosphate, or like Kelmund says, from Ag Lime.
What is more important is to ensure the amount of Colloidal Phosphate (RP or SRP); Calcium and Soil bacteria are in good levels, and Mg will not be missed again.
Tin, I used to belong to the conventional school of thinking, and had been using Epsom Salt (MgSo4) on the soil and later in foliar feeding, before I learned this Reams method. Now I don't use Epsom Salts anymore and find I have better quality growth. (better quality does not mean bigger leaf or larger blooms, but instead, it means no pests, no weeds, no fungi, sweet fruits, less tending, greater consistency)
Kelmund, if you are following the discussion currently on BrixTalk about using Gypsum and Calcium Carbonate even on a high pH soil, you will have read that Dan Skow recommends Calcium Carbonate + Gypsum, even though soil pH is above 6.4. That is because the soil this recommendation was made for, had high biological activity and sufficient Phosphates. With sufficient P and beneficial bacteria, the 2 types of calcium will become converted to plant-usable energy and the soil pH will still stay stable at the ideal 6.4 as a result of this activity.
And for those who like it in plain language without the technical jargon, add Rock Phosphate or Soft Rock Phosphate. Then add Lime and gypsum, and Chix poo. Finally, inoculate with a beneficial bacteria mix like BioVAM.
HTH
LL"
Wow, interesting indeed. And it went with something I had found earlier and had showed Seamaiden pertaining to plant hormones and how they will also cause substitutions and how deficiencies start domino effecting so to say...lol.
http://www.pruittfamily.com/paul/plants.htm
"The idea is that a cell experiencing a deficiency in one of the four classes of nutrients is no longer able to sustain itself or do so for very long. The signal first tries to address the nutrient shortfall by using stores of the nutrients. Being unsuccessful at that, and with an increase in the level or amount of the signal the cell attempts to address the shortfall by changing the behavior of nearby cells and cells at the opposite end of the plant if they are responsible normally for harvesting that nutrient. Finally if that doesn't fix the problem, the cell decides to senesce accompanied by critically high level of deficiency hormone, a point of no return as it were. Perhaps deficiency signal levels are directly related to the size of the nutrient shortfall and second and third stages of deficiency are not reached if the amount of the deficiency stays at a low chronic level.
The positive feedback comes in because at the third stage, high levels deficiency hormones actually push nutrients out of the cells experiencing the deficiency. Also it is not just their own respective nutrient that the hormone pushes out, but it pushes out all four classes of nutrients. As you can imagine once one hormone is pushing out all the types of nutrients, it soon begins synthesizing other deficiency hormones, which just snowballs the process, finally leading to a condition of high level of all four nutrient deficiency hormones and little or no nutrients left except a cellulose skeleton of where the cell used to be."
So that helps understand how plants substitute one substance for another in need, and how if you foliar feed a plant they may not need mag it may get better but in the long run was just a substitute that should have been filled back in.
All the while im still looking for a organic source of Mag other than Epsom salts...idk why so dont ask.
I go to Seas' thread and check it out because I remember she had said this:
"Sounds like how I ended up doing it without knowing what I was doing or why." After reading the above.
Well I still knocked around for a bit and every thing im finding Epsom Salt in all organic Fertilizers...then I run into this post by true grit:
Originally Posted by cemchris View Post
I noticed that moving from botanicare calmg to the general organic on I had to bump it up quite a bit. Botanicare I would run about 5-7ml per gallon. The GO I run at 10-15ml per gallon.
Yes I noticed this too. I was up around 12-14ml/g with the GO CaMg+. And it took at least 12ml/g to make em happy. Botanicare they were happy around 7-10ml/g.
Originally Posted by 2broke2smoke View Post
i have been using botanacare cal-mag for about 7 years no problems at all , why would u change if it was working well?
2b2s
Folks are just trying to expand to those "organic" options!
I have to agree with Ent- I think its just a bit light on nitrogen a bit early. If you kept the GO CaMg+ at the same rate you were feeding at the beginnin of flower then you would probably need to up that to a lil. Like jaybee said I was up past 10ml/g before they were happy with the GO. Stuff worked great but having to use so much I went through it like crazy- not as efficient as others.
Ya do have quite a bit going on there, but sticking with one brand isn't a big deal. Check out the Calplex (not sure by who). its organic too and no mg. I use other boosters that have Mg and from runnin nutes, haven't really found a base nute lacking in it yet, and since switching to Calplex I have seen '0' mg deficiencies...
Well when I read this I was like cool mane, I know Calplex cuz its an organic source and whats in it is water solible calcium. I just read how to make that through fermentation. Eggshells and Brown Rice Vinegar all u need...but still What about magnesium?....Wait didnt Realms say mag is over emphisized??
"He was taught by Carey Reams that Magnesium (Mg) is something that's over emphasized by conventional thinking just because Mg is the main component of chlorophyll. Instead, he had found that plants can take up all the Mg they need from the air, and just a small amount of Mg in the soil is sufficient for strong healthy growth if the soil is biologically healthy.
He found that often, it was actually Nitrogen deficiency together with low Calcium and Phosphate levels that fooled the farmer into thinking it is an Mg deficiency. Then upon adding Mg, the farmer thinks he had addressed the deficiency because the plant seem to pick up in growth and colour. But soon however, he finds that other problems occur (mainly bugs due to anionic, leafy growth), and now, he thinks he's hit another deficiency, then another, and another... This proves Mg was not the deficiency in the first place, because the plant took the added Mg in replacement of needed Ca and N, explaining why the temporary (false) improvement. This is the gist of how biological ionization works - since everything lives on the energy released from our foods, our bodies (and plants too) will temporarily substitute an element for another just to tide over a deficiency in order to gain that needed energy"
mainly bugs due to anionic, leafy growth....Here he is saying that because you used magnesium which is in anionic for (Epsom salts) added to plant and caused green growth during flowering because it was used as a substitute instead of what it really needed.
Which reminded me of this.
A FINAL THOUGHT ON FERTILIZERS
Following is a basic law of nature that is so often over looked. Many times farmers' success and failure stories don't agree because of varied
soil conditions, various fertilizer mixes, etc.
Here is a basic nature law to consider:
ANIONIC (-) plant food makes growth and CATIONIC ( + ) plant food makes fruit. There are three elements called ISOTOPES, which can be
either ANIONIC or CATIONIC. They are hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. The ANIONIC form of nitrogen is NO 3 (nitrate) and the CATIONIC form
is NH3 (ammonia). With this basic law all fertilizer can be grouped for needed growth, or fruit production.
Also, ANIONIC nutrients move into a plant quicker than CATIONIC. All organic materials of high carbon content are always CATIONIC (for fruit
set and production).
