Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

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I and many other members on the farm have been searching for a thread on this to no avail. Hopefully this thread helps us figure out what, exactly, this dudding syndrome is.


So when I clone off of a mother plant I have a few genetics that will throw "duds". dud plants grow regular until some point in the first two months when they will suddenly stop normal growth, throw out tiny leaves with lots (7-9) of blades, lots of nodes, and usually will throw large mature pistils at the nodes. Trying to bend the branches usually will break the branch off, and over time the plant's healthy leaves will turn necrotic and begin twisting/dying.

Plants that dud out never produce a decent yield and almost always have a sub-par smell (if any) and very few trichomes. They also smoke like shit.

I'll dig through for some pictures but it's strangely difficult to photograph, even next to a comparison plant.

Any ideas as to what we're seeing? I'm looking near and far for a lab that can do testing for various viruses, the top of the list are Barley Yellow Dwarf Virus (transmitted by aphids) and Fusarium, although these syptoms don't match the syptoms of fusarium I've heard reports from commercial growers of duds testing positive.

Another possibility is a carbon drain on the plant due to an overabundance of nutrient-mobilizing fungi, @DowNwithDirT was looking into this and hopefully can swing in to shed some light (he's been busy winning cups and popping beans so we'll see)

Even still, it could be caused by some sort of change in the media when soilless media is overwatered (oxygen deprivation : overfertilization?) since this problem seems to be mostly in soilless mixes.


let's go, what you got to add?!

This post has been edited to add the following:
Hey guys-

I know there have been lots of established theories about nematodes being the cause of the dudding, I have very strong reason to suspect that the stunting is viral, and is transmitted by root aphids. I have been to a lab three times with tissue samples of infected plants and have yet to see a single nematode (even with the help of mycologists and soil biologists) after hours of lab time. I know there are samples that people have seen nematodes on, but at least two of those samples came from outdoor plants, where it is far more likely to encounter nematodes.

After working with an old friend working in a food science program at a major university, I have identified the species of aphid that attacks cannabis (Rhopalosiphum rufiabdominale - the red rice root aphid...originally I had thought the species was Rhopalosiphum padi - the bird cherry oat aphid, but the red rice aphid fits the bill 100% anatomically and behaviorally), and discovered that it is a major vector for a disease called "barley yellow dwarf virus" which affects cereal crops worldwide.

BYDV is known to hibernate in many different types of grains and grasses, but, just like the rice root aphid, is not known to infect crops outside of the Poaceae family, until now. Because of how drastic the implications of this could be, I'm going to be getting some help from leaders in this field, as well as help from a specialized lab that deals exclusively with plant viruses. I've been chasing this problem extensively for nearly 3 years now, the general consensus of every professional I've worked with has been that this is a hormonal collapse or a viral infection; we'll know the answer soon.
 
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So here's a shot of a dudded out plant next to a healthy one


IMG_20140308_132850074.jpg


And a close shot of a healthy top (left) and a dudded top (right)
IMG_20140308_155051223.jpg


Notice how the dud leaves are all the same size, shiny, and have very deep serration on the margin. Stems are weak and break easily if flexed. Node devolpment is twice the average but is weaker and smaller.
IMG_20140308_132709764.jpg
 
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So far around colorado I've seen True OG (TK), Bruce Banner #3, Ghost OG, Durban Poison, Dawg's Waltz, Blue Buddha, Girl Scout Cookies, and a sour cut that were for sure dudded out. I know the Bruce Banner and True OG were passed around as duds because multiple dispensaries and personal growers have dud cuts of it. Durban, Waltz, Buddha, and Banner I've seen dud out in my own grow, as well as probably five phenos I've popped from seed. It's definitely not affecting every genetic but it seems like once a genetic starts throwing out duds it's just a matter of time before you lose it completely...especially keeping moms as it seems like it can happen overnight. I've seen just a branch dud out on a 6 month old mom and the rest of the plant be fine, but that's generally spelling the end as far as I've been able to tell.
 
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Ill try and dig up pix but think they are on my old comp. Like you said- in veg look for:
-smaller/micro leaves
-horizontal branching vs. normal upward stretch
-weak branching

Those will always dud. Interestingly, i know i have cloned off of those plants and produced healthy clones off of those.

In flower, from my experience, most of the duds that came from normal healthy plants are stress related. Too much water, too close to fans, etc. There were no mites, fungus, mold. But they basically throw buds with no resin, densisty, smell. The reason i think its stress related vs fungal/viral is that ive had only branches of plants dud with rest of plant finishing perfectly fine. Usually the branches that dud are scrogged and in more stressful location.

Most duds that ive found in veg are generally from first gen moms for me- as in rooted clones from cuts ive received. Sometimes it carries on to the next gen- in cases of True OG and Faceoff. Almost every other plant has returned to normal veg growth after 2-3rd gen mom.

My practice lately has been working through 2-3 healthy generations of mothers before attempting to pull any cuts I need to count on. I still will flower out a tester of somethin i received or 1st gen, but i definitely work the genetics into my environment before pulling cuts to count on anything. If i receive a plant i can tell is a dud in veg, it doesn't spread to others it appears so i generally let it keep growing shitty until i can pull cuts. Those cuts usually don't exhibit same issues, then pull cuts off those cuts and try again.

Ive had it happen to mostly OG's for some reason. Think i got dud branches on Wifi 27,37, and 43 but none in veg. Also have had a few other OGs throw dud branches in flower. In veg i saw first gen Suge PK, Animal, True OG, Faceoff and Tahoe do it. Suge and Animal have never done it again once healthy mom was established. Im very tight on who i take genetics from, but seems these moms just need to adjust to environments or get settled into proper environment or something. I do strongly believe a healthy organic regimen with Caps teas helps overall plant health as well.

Thanks at @We Solidarity for starting this thread ive had several people urge me to but im too lazy these lol.
 
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dang @true grit you're lucky man, I have yet to get any of my dudded plants to grow out of it, maybe 1 in 50 clones will root after three weeks in a cloner and they won't do any better than the moms.
Don't get me wrong- if i receive multiple cuts the duds get culled immediately. Ive only had to do it a couple times to try and save a cut. I did it unknowingly with the Suge PK and all cuts came out fine...this was before i realized what the veg duds were. The True OG i received never came out of it...no matter how many generations i pulled. Animal i just culled immediately.
 
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Is it possibly what you are using for a rooting agent is causing it? I've seen what you are talking about in stuff that is not even clones of clones, in stuff from old genes and also from recent seed. It seems the ones more prone to the abnormal growth also have weird, swollen stems that seem to extend up into the vegetative growth.
 

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
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My white hashplant from seed that I sprouted 2 years ago dudded on me for the first time a few months ago. You can spot the dud. shiny leaves, differnt serration.. total bullshit. The dud I had off the plant (one cutting was dud in a bed with several others).. the dud was og like in bud structure, and not much smell to it. Kind of grassy.

TG has a good amount of experience with it and @JACKMAYOFFER claims genetic drift. Also we were speculating that the white maybe causes some dudding even though its such a good plant to use in a cross.

Yeah at this point its all speculation.

I can tell you this: My WHP has never had broad mites, and still dudded.

@delae632 is having major dud issues as well. Hopefully we can get tot he bottom of this.
 
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This is all getting quite strange? Almost seems something had to be introduced into the gene pool.

If it were some kind of stress related factor as people are saying then why is it just now being seriously talked about?

You would think there would be some documentation to be found in the last 40 years or so.

Think I will stick to my own stuff until something concrete is established as to what is causing it.
 
@We Solidarity great job on starting this thread...

The very first dud I came across was Sourdub around 2010 or so then years later Valley OG, and back then with not much information I chalked it off as a mistake on my part; like i'm sure most are doing not knowing there is a serious issue.. It seems like OG's and OG related strains are more prone to this issue then others, but now reading from yall it seems like any strain can be infected.

From my understanding there seems to be more then 1 issue here with similar symptoms... The broad/cycleman mite issue, an unknown possible virus, tired or run out/genetic drift issue, possibly more.
Most of these can cause duding like symptoms.
.
Broad Mites/eggs can be spotted mainly on underside of newer growth with a 30x + scope and usually you will see abnormally distorted/twisted growth, down or upward leaf curling, shorten internodes, stems will snap easily and new growth usually becomes stunted forcing the plants to shootout more lateral branching also in flower pistils will die/turn color very early.

Depending on how hard you're hit the final product can be totally worthless, no oils/stickiness, lack of terpenes or zero smell, lowered trich production or barley any... Now its possible to totally eradicate the broads from your mother plant but the mite's toxins can remain in the plant and cause issues for a some time; the amount of time isn't clear.
Nice link on broad mite study here... http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/orn/broad_mite.htm

I'll talk about a few other possible causes soon, viruses, tired or "run out " cuts after multiple clone generation, fungal, bacterial ect..
 
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I have a few questions.

How many have seen this from seed & what's the cross ? Seems most of the issues coming from clones ....

Has this only been happening in cali, colorado, west coast area .... ?

If this is a disease or virus that can jump from plant to plant ( and it seems thats the case. ), this may be a continuation of the bug issues that are ravaging cali for the last few years. Who has had this issue jump from one plant to another ... ?

Or is blowback for so many S1's, S10's ect in the OG game.

Great thread because if this is transmittable it could wipe out tons of genetics...... So the more details the better so u can backtrack. In hydro ? Soil ? Mites ? OG's ? Chems ? What medium is being used ? Nutes ? ......
 
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& " what if " this was done on purpose .... ? like the computer virus they made for iran. what if .gov is trying to wipe out the " black market " as the green rush unfolds. they want everyone buying taxed weed.

on another forum a knowledgeable grower said this spread in his room from once it was introduced w/ infected cut.

either way, until this is figured out i would never take a cut again.
 
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they are already tracking canna d.n.a ....

....... " WEST HAVEN, CONN. -- A University of New Haven forensic scientist is setting up a national databank for marijuana DNA that will permit law enforcement to track where the drug originated when an arrest is made.

Heather Miller Coyle, an associate professor in the Henry C. Lee College of Criminal Justice and Forensic Sciences, is a forensic botanist. She also has developed a new method for collecting the marijuana‘s genetic fingerprint that makes it easy for law enforcement on the scene of a case to collect the samples.

The DNA mapping initiative will allow law enforcement personnel for the first time to track where marijuana came from and link it to criminal organizations such as drug trafficking organizations in Mexico, growers in Canada or gangs in the United States.

The database would be similar to the one run by the FBI for humans. That database, called CODIS, or Combined DNA Index System,allows law enforcement to collect samples from a crime scene and evaluate the DNA profile against a computerized database of samples to assist in the identification of suspects in a crime.

“Such a databank and signature mark would be a welcome tool for police and law enforcement agencies,” said Frank Limon, New Haven chief of police. “It’s probable, in some cases, that conspirators of the overall operation may escape investigation and prosecution. The link between production and distribution would aid us in establishing conspiracy cases against the whole operation – not just the dealers and buyers. This would effectively connect the dots to street level narcotics distribution.
” ........

http://www.newhaven.edu/news-events/UNH-in-the-media/2011-12/195154/
 
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I am happy now I didn't hit anyone up for cuts in the last couple years from out west.

I know I am reading about maybe being passed through to seeds as well.

My damn knees are sore and the batteries in my scope are dead from all this scoping leaves out of fear and paranoia.

Even if it is not from a BM toxin or such it seems that the bm is maybe lowering the plants immune system and then whatever this dud thing is sets in.
 
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until this hits the larger commercial grows with issues & they do testing, it might not hit the labs soon ...

on the dna testing. all the large commercial growers are being tested NOW ( samples are taken from every pound sold ???? )! so indeed, your building a dna database w/ your location and footprint.
 
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cap are you 100% sure its the same issue ..... did it spread or have you seen it again or was it just a single seed on your end ?

( so bad batch of starter plugs ??? ) what are you using for popping seeds ? & are you still hitting the plants w/ dual spectrum lighting .... ?
 
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Guys,

I have never had BM. My dud came from a White hashplant BX from seed that I popped myself.
I know cap was more of an observation that they seem to go together like say hep c and cirrhosis neither is necessary to have the other but hep surely raises your chances.

probably not the best analogy but all I could come up with..

honestly almost every grower who has posted about these issues I would consider far more knowledgeable then myself an am in no way shape or form saying anyone specific "just has mites"

sorry if anyone was offended.
 
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This is not a new thing imo. To think it just popped up is not the case, it seems growers have been dealing with it for some time just not always described as such or called duds.

@Spider- As stated earlier in the posts- it doesn't spread. Ive had perfectly healthy plants dud a few branches in flower from what I believe to be stress. Like i already said as well- no mites, no issues, etc. Doesn't spread from a dud veg plant to any others either. The veg duds i talked about spotting were a total of 2 plants and 1 I received already looking dud. In flower the plants I describe dud'ing have been a total of 5-6... over how many years?

The reality is growers have been dealing with it for some time, what most growers do is just throw that plant away or write it off- oh well. Prior to the topic coming up i would say fuck it, genetic drift etc because there is "0" consistency, it never spread, and rarely ever repeated itself. Now that its a topic of concern more people are talking about it and realizing certain genetics etc are more prone to do it. Definitely will be helpful to figure out the cause.

Last dud branch i found in flower was on a perfectly healthy wifi27, the branch simply was hidden under the canopy and received little to no light until i spotted it late in flower- just one branch that obviously was stressed and in evidently dud prone genetic. So that plants was 100% healthy going in and coming out- even threw down some of best bud that round. Just random mystery dud action.
 

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