End of flowering PH dropping

[Aqua Man]

Are you going RDWC?

Glad we can exchange without falling into insults! =) I'm loving it!

As for the DO, if it was a twisted thing from the company, they wouldn't say we need more ppm if we have a better air input because we can use less nutes, which is "bad" for them. My ladies drink 40-45 liters a day... I feel like training a sumo team! ahah

Debates are helpful... I can't count how many times I learn from them.

Ok i will go through this article step by step so it will take me a while to reply in an attempt to explain.

 

[Aqua Man]

-Quote from Article:

(DO) is a term that defines the oxygen saturation level in the water. Point blank—the more oxygen in the water, the happier your plant's roots will be.

The chemical formula for water is H₂O, meaning that for each oxygen atom, there are two hydrogen atoms attached. This bundle forms a water molecule. So then, you may wonder, how is it possible to have more molecules of oxygen in the water, if each water molecule can only have one oxygen atom?

Without getting into too much science, think of it as chocolate milk. You mix chocolate into milk, shake, and voila—an instantaneous and delicious treat. Milk is still milk, chocolate still chocolate, but they blend nicely. The same principle happens with water and molecular oxygen—O₂.

-My response:
There is a couple things wrong with these claims:

If a plant has adequate levels of DO in the water and O2 is being replenished adequately increasing those levels will not make the roots any "happier".

DO saturation is dependent on water temp so the lower the water temp the higher the level of DO. Does this mean plants will grow faster in water that is 5 degrees? Hell no but that kinda how this article is making comparisons. So in claiming that higher DO allows for less nutrients by the same token if you lowers your water temps you also need less nutrients? Doesn't make sense does it.

The statements in para 3 is just so wrong and likely why it says without getting into to much science. Mixing O2 and water is not a simple as put them together and stir. O2 is a gas that is very hard to dissolve in water unlike some gasses like Co2. You would need to increase the pressure and dwell time of the gas significantly to get levels of o2 that exceed equilibrium at any given temp which determines the saturation point. Its not even close to the same principal unless you are using O2 emitters that cause 02 to be suspended in water not dissolved in water.

Anytime a comparison is made that is nothing like what you are dealing with be suspicious.

Quote from article:

Moving water is healthy water; and as water flows and tumbles about in oceans, rivers, ponds, rain, and even municipal water systems, air gets shaken into the water, and molecular oxygen gets trapped inside—just like our chocolate powder in milk.

On the contrary, stagnant water often turns “bad”. It is not the water that lost its shelf life, it’s that molecular oxygen gets depleted to a point where the perfect conditions for nefarious anaerobic bacteria happen.

This is why you were told as a kid to never drink water from a pond

My response:

We always have moving water not stagnant in DWC, we also have no substrate to create anaerobic conditions this info is 100% irrelevant and used to make it sound like someone know what they are talking about. Yes in lakes and streams and aquariums with substrate and stagnant water this can happen but not in our RDWC systems. Anaerobic conditions are impossible in our systems. Now not having adequate DO levels either due to high temps or poor gas exchange can cause root health issues and lead to an attack from bacteria and other pathogens but these are not anaerobic. I can't imagine how the hell they can compare this to RDWC.

Quote from article:

You do not need extra oxygen in water to grow healthy cannabis plants. But if you want to grow healthier, bigger, and more productive plants, you should really consider it.

Dissolved oxygen is the first line of defense against the dreaded anaerobic bacteria that cause root rot. It also promotes rapid root growth with a much higher density of fine root hairs, which are in fact the ones responsible for water intake. Water intake alone consumes a lot of plant energy in the form of oxygen.

My response:

Again impossible to have anaerobic condition in RDWC. The definition is literally an area void of oxygen... meaning none.

The claim made in the first sentence is just false except the first sentence.

Quote from article:

The increased availability of oxygen atoms also enhances the uptake of nutrients. Oxygen-deprived roots have no option but to substitute with other compounds and start producing ethylene, which causes cell damage and increases the chance of systemic disease.

Even if such is not the case, oxygen-deprived roots will potentially cause a calcium deficiency. Some might become confused why adding cal-mag products does little to nothing.

So the real question is, why wouldn’t you want to add extra oxygen?

My response:

First sentence is BS again notice how the claim from the first sentence is then changed to an argument made that roots deprived of oxygen do x,y,z. Nothing to support the claim and nothing to support at what levels just vague info with terrible comparisons.

Again roots with adequate DO and a systems with adequate gas exchange will no cause calcium problems and now they change their argument from why to why not? typical statement made when no valid argument can be given.


OK im not even going to go on... I'm sorry dude but there is just so much wrong with this and the worst part is people read and take it as honest and good advice.

Equilibrium is equilibrium if any gas goes above or below it will try to shift back to equilibrium and therefor even if you manage to add more o2 it will try to correct itself. I have injected Co2 into water for many many years using a reactor i built for my aquatic tanks and i can tell you the more surface agitation the faster it shifts back to equilibrium.

 

[Aqua Man]

Are you going RDWC?

Glad we can exchange without falling into insults! =) I'm loving it!

As for the DO, if it was a twisted thing from the company, they wouldn't say we need less ppm if we have a better air input because we can use less nutes, which is "bad" for them. My ladies drink 40-45 liters a day... I feel like training a sumo team! ahah

Oh and yes im doing RDWC

 

[Aqua Man]

Are you going RDWC?

Glad we can exchange without falling into insults! =) I'm loving it!

As for the DO, if it was a twisted thing from the company, they wouldn't say we need less ppm if we have a better air input because we can use less nutes, which is "bad" for them. My ladies drink 40-45 liters a day... I feel like training a sumo team! ahah

Hahaha yeah its crazy how much they drink I have 4 plants in stretch drinking almost 5 gallons a day.

 

[Medigrow]

Hahaha yeah its crazy how much they drink I have 4 plants in stretch drinking almost 5 gallons a day.

I've been reading a bit last night and found that in veg, ph tends to rise and in flo, tends to drop. So if I add your "starvation" point. Let's say there is 100 ppm in the water, it doesn't mean it's 100 ppm to be consumed but may be junk released by the roots and so on... So even if ppm seems stable, ph must be dropping because there is nothing to act as a buffer.

As for the article, I just did a quick search on google to find any website talking about o2 input level... But your analysis, really thorough! thumb's up.

Thank you for your input =)

 

[Aqua Man]

I've been reading a bit last night and found that in veg, ph tends to rise and in flo, tends to drop. So if I add your "starvation" point. Let's say there is 100 ppm in the water, it doesn't mean it's 100 ppm to be consumed but may be junk released by the roots and so on... So even if ppm seems stable, ph must be dropping because there is nothing to act as a buffer.

As for the article, I just did a quick search on google to find any website talking about o2 input level... But your analysis, really thorough! thumb's up.

Thank you for your input =)

Yes ppm is just a measurement. But generally a ppm or TDs meter measures the electrical conductivity. It can't however tell you what is in the water or whether it's a bicarbonate which is what provides the buffering capacity of your water and helps to stabilize ph. And you are exactly correct that the ppm of the water could be made up of something like sodium that the plants are not going to benefit from.

This is why we do water changes instead of just keep adding back to prevent an imbalance in nutrients. As the plants eat we can see the ppm drop but we can't tell exactly how much of each nutrient they have consumed. Now I will say some growers do get away with only adding back if they have their nutrients dialed in but the longer you go without a water change the more likely you are to have an imbalance.

 

[Medigrow]

Here's a little update... In case someone is having the same issue:)

I did raised the ppm to 180-200 and now ph isn't dropping anymore.

 

[Medigrow]

Yes ppm is just a measurement. But generally a ppm or TDs meter measures the electrical conductivity. It can't however tell you what is in the water or whether it's a bicarbonate which is what provides the buffering capacity of your water and helps to stabilize ph. And you are exactly correct that the ppm of the water could be made up of something like sodium that the plants are not going to benefit from.

This is why we do water changes instead of just keep adding back to prevent an imbalance in nutrients. As the plants eat we can see the ppm drop but we can't tell exactly how much of each nutrient they have consumed. Now I will say some growers do get away with only adding back if they have their nutrients dialed in but the longer you go without a water change the more likely you are to have an imbalance.

Aqua Man, I found the information I was looking for about the... "more aeration = less ppm"
Here's the link to the thread and the text.. :)

Could Air Stones Be Doing More Harm Than Good?

Some things I can add to this thread . . 1 - Different types of roots grow for different conditions. I have left cuttings in a spagetti sauce jar for 2 months and only refill with tap water . . the roots grow for no-bubbles\low oxygen and thats what they are use to. They NEVER need bubbles...

www.thcfarmer.com

"
Some things I can add to this thread . .

1 - Different types of roots grow for different conditions. I have left cuttings in a spagetti sauce jar for 2 months and only refill with tap water . . the roots grow for no-bubbles\low oxygen and thats what they are use to. They NEVER need bubbles.

2 - If the plants grow roots in bubbles then you cut it, your changing what the roots are use to so of course they kook out.

We were running around 2HP of air in a UC16XXL drawing outside desert air (sometimes 100 degrees before going through a piston compressor and getting even hotter)_ . . and it fucked the plants up . . they grew like 6 inches in 3 weeks with CO2 and DIMLUX and AC . . then we noticed 2 plants were doing OK .. it was the 2 with cloggged stones and no bubbles in the pod. They didnt get over fed from nutes and they didnt have a hair dryer up their ass blowing 120 degree compressed air all day . . we killed the air to the pods and all the plants got happy in 24 hours.

There is another factor that happens with hyper aeration - the constant changing of state of the root membrane from dry to wet that allows molecules to pass much more freely, hence the reduced PPM with higher aeration

This bonus multiplier increases the yield while increasing the risk of over feeding and reliance on (extra) mechanical systems.

Therefore the safer way for us for now is to go no pod air and raise the nutes to the Heath target of 1.2 EC

Thx FooDoo for this thread and your application of logic! "

 

[Aqua Man]

I see what the guy is saying but I don't really agree with it at all. Roots grow based on nutrient and moisture levels not bubbles.

Bubbles or no bubbles it's the DO levels that change and can affect growth. If you keep the same DO levels I can't see any reason why growth would change.

The plants likely had to low of DO to properly take up nutrients. It has nothing to do with the contact of bubbles with the roots making the ppm lower to the plant.

I'm just gonna stop there. I strongly disagree with that post. It has no scientific merit that I can see.

I think they are mistaken in the cause of the results they seen. But thats just my opinion.

 

[Dank.in.Donuts]

-Quote from Article:

(DO) is a term that defines the oxygen saturation level in the water. Point blank—the more oxygen in the water, the happier your plant's roots will be.

The chemical formula for water is H₂O, meaning that for each oxygen atom, there are two hydrogen atoms attached. This bundle forms a water molecule. So then, you may wonder, how is it possible to have more molecules of oxygen in the water, if each water molecule can only have one oxygen atom?

Without getting into too much science, think of it as chocolate milk. You mix chocolate into milk, shake, and voila—an instantaneous and delicious treat. Milk is still milk, chocolate still chocolate, but they blend nicely. The same principle happens with water and molecular oxygen—O₂.

-My response:
There is a couple things wrong with these claims:

If a plant has adequate levels of DO in the water and O2 is being replenished adequately increasing those levels will not make the roots any "happier".

DO saturation is dependent on water temp so the lower the water temp the higher the level of DO. Does this mean plants will grow faster in water that is 5 degrees? Hell no but that kinda how this article is making comparisons. So in claiming that higher DO allows for less nutrients by the same token if you lowers your water temps you also need less nutrients? Doesn't make sense does it.

The statements in para 3 is just so wrong and likely why it says without getting into to much science. Mixing O2 and water is not a simple as put them together and stir. O2 is a gas that is very hard to dissolve in water unlike some gasses like Co2. You would need to increase the pressure and dwell time of the gas significantly to get levels of o2 that exceed equilibrium at any given temp which determines the saturation point. Its not even close to the same principal unless you are using O2 emitters that cause 02 to be suspended in water not dissolved in water.

Anytime a comparison is made that is nothing like what you are dealing with be suspicious.

Quote from article:

Moving water is healthy water; and as water flows and tumbles about in oceans, rivers, ponds, rain, and even municipal water systems, air gets shaken into the water, and molecular oxygen gets trapped inside—just like our chocolate powder in milk.

On the contrary, stagnant water often turns “bad”. It is not the water that lost its shelf life, it’s that molecular oxygen gets depleted to a point where the perfect conditions for nefarious anaerobic bacteria happen.

This is why you were told as a kid to never drink water from a pond

My response:

We always have moving water not stagnant in DWC, we also have no substrate to create anaerobic conditions this info is 100% irrelevant and used to make it sound like someone know what they are talking about. Yes in lakes and streams and aquariums with substrate and stagnant water this can happen but not in our RDWC systems. Anaerobic conditions are impossible in our systems. Now not having adequate DO levels either due to high temps or poor gas exchange can cause root health issues and lead to an attack from bacteria and other pathogens but these are not anaerobic. I can't imagine how the hell they can compare this to RDWC.

Quote from article:

You do not need extra oxygen in water to grow healthy cannabis plants. But if you want to grow healthier, bigger, and more productive plants, you should really consider it.

Dissolved oxygen is the first line of defense against the dreaded anaerobic bacteria that cause root rot. It also promotes rapid root growth with a much higher density of fine root hairs, which are in fact the ones responsible for water intake. Water intake alone consumes a lot of plant energy in the form of oxygen.

My response:

Again impossible to have anaerobic condition in RDWC. The definition is literally an area void of oxygen... meaning none.

The claim made in the first sentence is just false except the first sentence.

Quote from article:

The increased availability of oxygen atoms also enhances the uptake of nutrients. Oxygen-deprived roots have no option but to substitute with other compounds and start producing ethylene, which causes cell damage and increases the chance of systemic disease.

Even if such is not the case, oxygen-deprived roots will potentially cause a calcium deficiency. Some might become confused why adding cal-mag products does little to nothing.

So the real question is, why wouldn’t you want to add extra oxygen?

My response:

First sentence is BS again notice how the claim from the first sentence is then changed to an argument made that roots deprived of oxygen do x,y,z. Nothing to support the claim and nothing to support at what levels just vague info with terrible comparisons.

Again roots with adequate DO and a systems with adequate gas exchange will no cause calcium problems and now they change their argument from why to why not? typical statement made when no valid argument can be given.


OK im not even going to go on... I'm sorry dude but there is just so much wrong with this and the worst part is people read and take it as honest and good advice.

Equilibrium is equilibrium if any gas goes above or below it will try to shift back to equilibrium and therefor even if you manage to add more o2 it will try to correct itself. I have injected Co2 into water for many many years using a reactor i built for my aquatic tanks and i can tell you the more surface agitation the faster it shifts back to equilibrium.

I am trying something new on this 2nd grow oh thanks Aqua and @BorealCuring ( I am guessing this is tycho not sure) for the help on my first

. Buds came good. I wanted more frosties this time with more root mass so I made a hybrid grow medium of soil and stones cus I didnt have enough ceramic pebbles. I have a base (Thanks again Boreal) 1/3 pot with a 1in of stone pad, a flat 4in air diffuser on that, cover diffuser with stone, then 2/3 Topsoil (thanks boreal curing ) mixed with Pebbles and 1in stone. Its a experiment.
I then connected O2 and CO2 with a splitter to the diffuser so I have both going to roots and another in tent.
Its crazy cus I almost have a DWC with the runoff which I diffuse with air as well.