Ffof, Topdressing, And Aact Questions

[Jamz]

Hello farmers!

I am just a noob giving living soil a try, and have a few questions. I started out planning to go with FFOF and organic bottled nutes, but soon realized I need to ditch the bottles altogether as they aren't truly organic and would like to KISS (thank you thcfarmer). I would love to mix up some super soil for the next round but not ready to do so yet. I have my plants in 50/50 FFOF and Canna Coco, and was going to feed them with GO nutes as recommended by the hydro store guy. Another reason I would like to go with a super soil is to stop listening to the hydro store guy and buying stuff I don't need haha. I have a bunch of leftover things from some other projects and samples from the store along with some donated things, lots of options. I am hoping to be able to get away with topdressing and using compost tea with the current medium I have now and not use nutrients if at all possible.

For more info, I started seedlings in HF and transplanted into the OF/Coco mix a week ago and have given zero nutrients, just RO water and a weekly tea of OG Biowar Root and Foliar, EWC, and Earth Syrup as microbe food. I also top dressed with EWC the last time I gave them tea. They are doing quite well so far, no issues. Some things I am hoping to top dress and or water with:

Megaworm EWC
Roots Organics Elemental - for Cal and Mg?
Water Soluble Kelp - 1-1-17
Bat Guano 0-7-0
Seabird Guano 0-8-1
Roots Organics Uprising dry ferts- grow, bloom, foundation.
Insect Frass 2-2-2
Humisolve humic acid
Green Gro Nature's Pride veg and Bloom
CalCarb (foliar)
SN14 - high N

I know I don't need all of these, just a list of the things I have available. Most of them were free so I would like to utilize them. I know bat guano and possibly seabird guano are a touchy subject and would not buy them myself, they were given to me. Forgot to mention I dusted the transplant holes with Mykos and Azos, the roots are going nuts! I have heard that bugs don't like the insect frass, was hoping to utilize that. I also could't really find much info on the Green Gro stuff so unsure what it is.

Any advice would be great!

 

[terranovaLOS]

So here is my advice for you...

If you're about to pursue soil then think soil. I recommend scrapping this mix entirely because its soil built with a feed the plant mentality. The goal of any soil is to ultimately feed archaea which then feed bigger life, plants included. Plants should be a symptom of good soil.

FFOF is bunk and here is why - not mineralized appropriately or built for longevity or soil health. First of all, perlite. There are alternatives that won't float up to the top of your container with every watering and bring on compaction, that break down over time and provide soil food, as well as a much better shelter for bacterial colonies ie lava rock or pumice. Second, it already comes with guano. Forget mycorrhyzal fungi lol. I don't care how much products you sprinkle on there at transplant or whatever other products are applied. Sandy loam? Composted forest humus???? (this forest humus is the gateway for gnats and aphids right into your garden, thanks to the infested california wood chips that deliver most of that...) Poor mineralization, poor CEC, poor compost and humus, poor everything. That's why plants essentially "run out of food" and need bottles after a while...Get you to chase some CalMag around or whatever they call it haha.

My point being, even a much simpler approach than this with 70% less inputs, and even amendments will yield you far better results. Even digging up a fertile looking native soil and rebuilding it and nurturing it (then planting) would be better imo. (Why add ferts to a soil? Or is your goal soiless?)

If you want to keep it simple, then rock it simple. Grab some canadian peat moss from home depot, source good quality thermophilic compost from a farmer (or even better, make some yourself) not some bagged company compost (Oly Mtn Fish if you have to) and then some rocks or pumice. Then, and only then will you step into the world of living soil. Living colonies will stabilize with the correct inputs and proper care. Once your soil is alive (doesn't matter how simple the mix) its up to you to keep the metabolism going, simulating what goes on outside. If this living requirement is met, your plants will never go without doesn't matter what cultivar or their supposed feeding nuances.

Not trying to dog on your mix, just a nudge into a different direction if living soil is what you're really seeking.

Best of luck,
TN

PS - GreenGro? Wtf? If you don't know what's in it, why toss that into your smoke. just a thought. :)

 

[Jamz]

Thanks for your response terranova, greatly appreciated! I am here to learn so fire away!

I agree with what you are saying about pursuing soil, my goal is to build a super soil eventually. I have done some ground work and found some local sources for the ingredients and have a solid idea of what to do. Right now money is tight so that won't happen until at least the next run, so for now I am trying to get by with what I have. I own and have read Teaming with Microbes and Teaming with Nutrients, and have done lots of research on building a soil. I bought the soil long before I knew all of these things, hence the decision to switch over to feeding the soil, not the plant. So my original post was to seek advice on how to get by with what I have, and to start fresh in the next round or two.

Ocean Forest, ok I will ditch it. Is it not even good enough to use in a super soil? Again trying to be green and not waste stuff I already have. I can always throw it outside.

Rice hulls, lava, or pumice were the things I would use for my super soil depending on availability. I don't like perlite either. And yeah guano, it is no bueno. But I have some free samples and want to use it. And mycorrhizae? This is the first I have heard someone knock it, unless you are knocking Fox Farm for not adding enough or something? I had no idea forest humus is a gateway for bugs, I learned something here so thanks for that. I was thinking of using some for a compost but will rethink that. Planning on starting my own compost anyways! That native soil digging has really piqued my interest, I live very close to some awesome forests. Also, I don't want to add anything, my goal is a super soil that only needs water and teas, maybe a top dressing if needed. Quality>quantity, this is personal medicine.

And I am doggin my own mix, no harm no foul I appreciate your advice! My goal is living soil, just trying to make it happen with what I have. So what do you suggest I do with my current mix? Can I get by with topdressing or should I just start feeding nutes? Scrapping the current round is not an option I would like to pursue.

Thanks a bunch,
Jamz

PS I did some digging and found a pdf of the greengro sample I was given, I knew it wasn't all bad but couldn't find info on my original search. This is a combined list of the veg and bloom-

Crab meal, seabird guanos, feather meal, blood meal, oyster shell, alfalfa meal, volcanic ash, rock phosphate, fish bone meal, glacial rock dust, sulfate of potash, langbeinite, kelp meal, mycorrhizae, humic acid, biochar, and a bunch of bacteria.

 

[Seamaiden]

Bump-a-lump! Welcome to the farm, this organic gal says. I'll need some time to read your posts. :)

 

[Jamz]

Bump-a-lump! Welcome to the farm, this organic gal says. I'll need some time to read your posts. :)

Thanks Seamaiden! I eagerly await your advice on the matter, It will be feeding time very soon!

I just transplanted into the final 3 gal pots, Mostly Ocean forest with some happy Frog to top it off. I also added a bunch of EWC and perlite. These are left over ingredients and will be starting fresh with my next batch. I predict a two to three week period where the soil will be feeding the plants, but will need to feed them something eventually. So with the above mentioned dry ingredients, can I pull off this round with topdressing and compost teas?

Thanks!

 

[Seamaiden]

I really don't see why not. I'm not a fan of using stuff like guano in teas, but it works very well for the plants. I just say be careful for yourself and not to burn. The rock dusts/minerals will perform better the sooner they're in the soil where your microbes can get to mineralizing them.

Did you precharge the biochar? That can make a difference in its performance and overall value to your cultivation.

And... I use pee as well. Most folks insist it must be diluted to a certain ratio, my experience tells me it's a far more variable, malleable issue than a formula allows. EG, most say a minimum 5:1 water:urine dilution ratio. Because I drink tea all day long, that's far too diluted, so I cut it in half, and sometimes go ahead and use it straight. Most folks are incredibly grossed out by using our own urine, yet will sit there and advocate using bat shit. D'oh! :o

 

[Jamz]

I really don't see why not. I'm not a fan of using stuff like guano in teas, but it works very well for the plants. I just say be careful for yourself and not to burn. The rock dusts/minerals will perform better the sooner they're in the soil where your microbes can get to mineralizing them.

Did you precharge the biochar? That can make a difference in its performance and overall value to your cultivation.

And... I use pee as well. Most folks insist it must be diluted to a certain ratio, my experience tells me it's a far more variable, malleable issue than a formula allows. EG, most say a minimum 5:1 water:urine dilution ratio. Because I drink tea all day long, that's far too diluted, so I cut it in half, and sometimes go ahead and use it straight. Most folks are incredibly grossed out by using our own urine, yet will sit there and advocate using bat shit. D'oh! :eek:

The Biochar is part of the Green Gro dry ammendment sample that I have, along with the rest of that list. I was looking more for advice on the first list I posted:

Megaworm EWC
Roots Organics Elemental - for Cal and Mg?
Water Soluble Kelp - 1-1-17
Bat Guano 0-7-0
Seabird Guano 0-8-1
Roots Organics Uprising dry ferts- grow, bloom, foundation.
Insect Frass 2-2-2
Humisolve humic acid
Green Gro Nature's Pride veg and Bloom
CalCarb (foliar)
SN14 - high N

After some research I have decided the roots Organics Uprising dry fertilizers are a good way to go as they seem to be well rounded and people get good results with top dressing with them. I also just picked up a worm bin along with a big bucket of straight-from-the-farm castings, I will be topdressing with those as well. Maybe some of the other items here and there, we'll see where it goes! Thanks for the advice on using urine, I will have to give it a try one day!

I have a soil recipe I am working on for my next round, should I start a new thread or post it here for advice on refining it?

 

[Seamaiden]

I'd keep this thread going. I think your initial list is fairly good. Of course more things could be added, but I'm not sure they're necessary. I'd have to see how the plants perform to really be able to say as I do my growing very much by feel.

 

[DemonTrich]

ive been using FFOF for 4+ years. I veg for 6 weeks then I hit them with their first bottled nutes are week 7 or 8. I also add 1 cup pulverized dolomite lime and 1/3rd bag of chunky perlite per bag of OF. I also water 2x with molasses (actually botanicare sweet/raw 10ml/gal) in veg. I up pot form my cloner directly into OF. ive never had any issues and I like not having to feed in veg until my flip my time. I also add a myco at every transplant/up pot.

 

[jumpincactus]

I really don't see why not. I'm not a fan of using stuff like guano in teas, but it works very well for the plants. I just say be careful for yourself and not to burn. The rock dusts/minerals will perform better the sooner they're in the soil where your microbes can get to mineralizing them.

Did you precharge the biochar? That can make a difference in its performance and overall value to your cultivation.

And... I use pee as well. Most folks insist it must be diluted to a certain ratio, my experience tells me it's a far more variable, malleable issue than a formula allows. EG, most say a minimum 5:1 water:urine dilution ratio. Because I drink tea all day long, that's far too diluted, so I cut it in half, and sometimes go ahead and use it straight. Most folks are incredibly grossed out by using our own urine, yet will sit there and advocate using bat shit. D'oh! :eek:

LOL @Seamaiden I pee in my compost pile all the time. hell its a free source. I've been told and correct me if I'm wrong that the first piss of the day is the best to work with. Here is a link for those that get a ick factor thinking about using thier own pee as a fert. Your urine is actually quite sterile when it exist your body. Look at this inoovative project going on in Vermont. piss in your compost. Your plants will love you for it!!! http://modernfarmer.com/2014/01/human-pee-proven-fertilizer-future/

 

[Jamz]

The list up top is of items I hope to top dress with and or create teas with to get me through my current grow with FFOF, instead of using bottled nutes. I am currently building a super soil to use with my next round and decided to start a new thread on that mix.

 

[DemonTrich]

if anyone grew mj that pissed in the pots and didn't tell me and I smoked it, I would be extremely PISSED off and would warrant a severe ass whipping.

 

[jumpincactus]

Its all in your head man. It is natural and organic and very sterile. Safer than a lot of other junk being marketed for use on MJ...... Don't worry I will not offer you any of my tainted stash. Truth be known you got a lot of ass whoopins to catch up on. Farmers all over the world been peeing in their feilds forever. If you start now you might catch up in 25 years. :rolleyes:

 

[DemonTrich]

that's all good and well, just don't shit or piss in my pots or put your "time of the month" item in as well. that's all I ask. how about you be upfront and tell everyone who smokes your piss pot, that you piss in your pots for fertilizer and see what their reactions are. im sure they wont be pleasant, unless they are into pee. which im not into.

 

[Seamaiden]

You wouldn't know the difference, and neither do they. But, you're ok with bat shit, cow shit, chicken shit...? Basically all the other animals' shit except our own?

Btw, I can't piss directly into my pots. I pee into a cup first. :p Or a bucket. It really depends on where I am, I just don't like peeing right onto the ground because then I walk away with yellow ankles.

 

[jumpincactus]

that's all good and well, just don't shit or piss in my pots or put your "time of the month" item in as well. that's all I ask. how about you be upfront and tell everyone who smokes your piss pot, that you piss in your pots for fertilizer and see what their reactions are. im sure they wont be pleasant, unless they are into pee. which im not into.

Actually I think by my post everyone now knows I piss in my pots. Since I only grow for myself and a few friends that are in the know. They are all aware and love my stash. Any how, it is clear to see you are offended by the concept and thats ok. Was not trying to offend.......... Peace........ Live n let live brother

 

[DemonTrich]

im not upset at what you pee into or shit into. as long as its NOT my medicine. and you should be upfront with the people who smoke your herb. if you had any diseases (NOT saying you do, but most don't even know they have something until too late), couldn't those be passed from urine or fesses (actually they CAN be passes)? my mom worked for the CDC for 15 years and made my brother and I watch some really Fvcked up videos of what girls private parts look like when they have diseases when we were younger. it scared the ever living crap out of us for many many years. a lot of diseases are passed thru bodily fluids. 50%+ of MEN are carriers for HPV and don't even know it. same with girls, they are carriers and have no idea they have it. cervical cancer.

 

[Growin Grass]

hehehe
There's a reason you always get a straw in a soda in NYC

 

[Seamaiden]

Yeah. To filter out the spit. :p

im not upset at what you pee into or shit into. as long as its NOT my medicine. and you should be upfront with the people who smoke your herb. if you had any diseases (NOT saying you do, but most don't even know they have something until too late), couldn't those be passed from urine or fesses (actually they CAN be passes)? my mom worked for the CDC for 15 years and made my brother and I watch some really Fvcked up videos of what girls private parts look like when they have diseases when we were younger. it scared the ever living crap out of us for many many years. a lot of diseases are passed thru bodily fluids. 50%+ of MEN are carriers for HPV and don't even know it. same with girls, they are carriers and have no idea they have it. cervical cancer.

LMAO! She did that so you wouldn't go out and knock someone up too quickly. I'm kidding, but as a mother of sons only halfway.

I actually had to go through the whole cervical observation and finally conization shiznit resulting from being infected with all the best species of HPV (it's an argument in favor of the vaccine, and rubbers). I cannot see how those viruses could possibly be spread through urine, my own understanding is it's a bodily fluid exchange by which the viruses are transmitted. So I don't think I could have contracted it by, for example, sitting on a toilet upon which someone had splashed urine. I know who gave it to me, and how it happened.

If I were to move to use feces, it would be composted first. Not because something could be transmitted through dried and smoked flowers, but because handling it while fresh would present the possibility of disease transmission.

I have rules for where urine can be used (and animal shit for that matter). Nothing that grows in the ground or low to the ground; i.e. never on carrots, lettuces and the like. No splashing EVER, and if you do it gets washed off. It's definitely not approved for organic cultivation. D'oh! :o

Are you familiar with the urine and wood ash as fertilizer experiments? Communal septic, fluids kept separate from solid wastes, proven to work better than "the blue stuff" on tomato cultivation.

Wanna know what the dirtiest part of your body is? Your hair. My mother, the dietitian, used to do restaurant and kitchen inspections for the state, so I grew up with washing hands constantly and being taught to keep my hair and anything that touches it away from clean surfaces. You'd think it'd be your asshole that's the dirtiest part of your body, but no, it's your hair. I do tend to keep my ass covered, so I suppose it makes sense.

 

[Growin Grass]

Yeah. To filter out the spit. :p

nope