Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

[Jay13.aka.DutchStuff]

Organic and organisms are not the same… how can beneficial organisms cause problems? Its done in hydro as well which you dont want organics in either.

what disadvantages? You neglected to look at the advantages that fogponics provides over the others you mentioned.

There will definitely be challenges but in the end it should provide similar growth to aeroponic which is faster than both the systems you name.

Such organic additives are much larger on the molecular level than the dissolved ions of the salts and can clog the nozzles much faster. This is actually a known problem - I am not speaking from my own experience, I only grow on coco. But as my tank looks right now with organic additives I would not give that through fine nozzles I think.

For the disadvantages of closed systems, I recommend the article on manics

Manic Botanix

manicbotanix.com

 

[Aqua Man]

Such organic additives are much larger on the molecular level than the dissolved ions of the salts and can clog the nozzles much faster. This is actually a known problem - I am not speaking from my own experience, I only grow on coco. But as my tank looks right now with organic additives I would not give that through fine nozzles I think.

View attachment 1282967

For the disadvantages of closed systems, I recommend the article on manics

Manic Botanix

manicbotanix.com

Organisms and organics are not the same… you do understand that right? Your missing half of the equation. I know how all these things work i dont need to read the article.

you also waste a lot of water and nutrients in dtw… i have done both.

there are no nozzles to clog and he is using salt based fertilizer not organic

 

[Aqua Man]

The o2 level of the rootzone has a massive effect on the growth rates… compare soil to aeroponic and you will see that. Coco is a great option over soil for that reason and hydro even more than coco but close aeroponic and fogponic are even better

 

[PipeCarver]

I just ordered flexible a copper coil. I can plumb that right up to my chiller and get control over this instantaneously. I'm gonna have this issue X 4 when these move to flower, so I gotta hack something together over there too.

For you I'll bet you could do something clever with outside temps pretty soon. Could you put the bucket in the garage or something? Save on ice and labor?

Fk the bubbler cut and stick in the dirt with Clonex......It was me trying a diy cloner.....its more work and noise its just going to be cut, dip and plant on my next ones....I gotta get a couple of cuts off my GSC real soon. and I'm not getting fancy with them

 

[Bluebuddha]

Is the root zone 90?

Phase change the oxygen at the post supply/pre nozzle level?

Supply (pressurized) > drop pressure> nozzle

Too complex...

Cool it like an engine. Aluminum slab with internal channels, wrapping the nozzle bank and have a glycol radiator with peltier attached to drop the temp.

I would bet the 02 levels raise functional temp enough where 5-10 degrees could be skimmed at nozzle. But, it's got to go somewhere.

Yeah this is a brain buster. Your running up against the 2nd law here.

Increase the res volume?

 

[Jay13.aka.DutchStuff]

The o2 level of the rootzone has a massive effect on the growth rates… compare soil to aeroponic and you will see that. Coco is a great option over soil for that reason and hydro even more than coco but close aeroponic and fogponic are even better

From a scientific perspective, I have yet to read any evidence that Aeroponic is better than coco with high-freq-fert.

For root health and processes at the roots it has many advantages that are missing with a mediumless system.

The oxygen supply is probably already at the optimum in a coco perlite mix.

I have been growing according to your system for half a year now. Initially, I wanted to take Coco only for practice until I do real hydro. But all the information in the half year speaks for the fact that Coco-Hydro is the best system.
If you are more concerned with additives like humic acids, amino acids and other bennies, an organic medium like Coco also makes more sense imho.

source

you also waste a lot of water and nutrients in dtw… i have done both.

Yes, the system has a few indirect disadvantages, including that. But for the plants, in my opinion or to my knowledge, it has only benefits

there are no nozzles to clog and he is using salt based fertilizer not organic

Oh, I'm sorry, I'll have to look at the system again. I had only seen on page two that the problem was talked about.
I use only mineral nutrient salts in my case, too, but other organic additives that are rather unsuitable for fine nozzles.
Of course, if nozzles are not used here, that's not a problem.

 

[Aqua Man]

From a scientific perspective, I have yet to read any evidence that Aeroponic is better than coco with high-freq-fert.

For root health and processes at the roots it has many advantages that are missing with a mediumless system.

The oxygen supply is probably already at the optimum in a coco perlite mix.

I have been growing according to your system for half a year now. Initially, I wanted to take Coco only for practice until I do real hydro. But all the information in the half year speaks for the fact that Coco-Hydro is the best system.
If you are more concerned with additives like humic acids, amino acids and other bennies, an organic medium like Coco also makes more sense imho.

View attachment 1283026
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Yes, the system has a few indirect disadvantages, including that. But for the plants, in my opinion or to my knowledge, it has only benefits



Oh, I'm sorry, I'll have to look at the system again. I had only seen on page two that the problem was talked about.
I use only mineral nutrient salts in my case, too, but other organic additives that are rather unsuitable for fine nozzles.
Of course, if nozzles are not used here, that's not a problem.

Personally i thinks its more than acceptes that aeroponic growth rates far exceed other grow methods. Lots of studies out there and information on o2 and its imoact on growth.

for instance over watering is not to much water but lack of o2… this is largely due to the media used

 

[Moe.Red]

Interesting convo, I'm bringing tents online, I'll be back later to comment.

I made the mistake of not fully draining the chiller when I shut this tent down and now the whole basement smells like a rotten egg fart. Mmmmm, anaerobic bacteria. What would we do without 'em.

 

[Jay13.aka.DutchStuff]

Personally i thinks its more than acceptes that aeroponic growth rates far exceed other grow methods. Lots of studies out there and information on o2 and its imoact on growth.

for instance over watering is not to much water but lack of o2… this is largely due to the media used

Yes, I agree with you there. Perlite has the special property that it holds air even during watering, so that the substrate cannot really be overwatered.

source

With Aeroponic, however, I would suspect that if the roots are always completely covered with water, the oxygen supply could be even worse than in coco perlit mix.
Unfortunately I can not find the place on manics, but there it is compared with a DWC. There is only as much oxygen as can be dissolved in the water. Coco perlit has a much better oxygen supply at the roots compared to a DWC.

 

[Aqua Man]

Yes, I agree with you there. Perlite has the special property that it holds air even during watering, so that the substrate cannot really be overwatered.

With Aeroponic, however, I would suspect that if the roots are always completely covered with water, the oxygen supply could be even worse than in coco perlit mix.
Unfortunately I can not find the place on manics, but there it is compared with a DWC. There is only as much oxygen as can be dissolved in the water. Coco perlit has a much better oxygen supply at the roots compared to a DWC.

It can and coco and hydo can have very similar growth. This is exactly what @Moe.Red and I are working on now… raising o2 above current saturation levels in hydro, aero, fod and soiless

 

[Moe.Red]

Ok that stunk. What a screwup. So much h2o2 used today. Sterilized everything. 2 Tents up 1 to go.

 

[beluga]

Don't rhizospheres create their own microclimate that they can, to some extent, regulate?

I don't quite see the logic in any media - even one that's exceptionally porous and inert - providing more mobility than air/vapor. The vapor solution is constantly exchanging places with air and I can't imagine the way plants uptake oxygen to be anything that wouldn't take advantage of that refresh rate. In the example of DWC, sure, because the oxygenation occurs in water, but anything that significantly suspends the rootzone above the solution, I would think would benefit from the superior transfer of air/vapor.

Nor do I see the insulating property of a medium to really be all that important if we're talking about growth rates and optimization. Ideally, you'd never run into the scenario where you're chasing temperatures, just like, ideally, you'd never want a drip line to clog.

You guys know more than me though, so maybe I'm just talking out my stoned tooter.

Interesting stuff either way.

 

[Moe.Red]

Yes, I agree with you there. Perlite has the special property that it holds air even during watering, so that the substrate cannot really be overwatered.

View attachment 1283033
source

With Aeroponic, however, I would suspect that if the roots are always completely covered with water, the oxygen supply could be even worse than in coco perlit mix.
Unfortunately I can not find the place on manics, but there it is compared with a DWC. There is only as much oxygen as can be dissolved in the water. Coco perlit has a much better oxygen supply at the roots compared to a DWC.

Gotta go back and read some more and look at your sources, but off the bat I think we are working on different hypothesis.

What I am working towards on this grow is to establish the baseline and setpoints needed to optimize O2 in the root zone using active methods. Aqua can comment on that if he chooses, it is his design.

I'm saying you could put glass beads, aquarium rocks, hydroton, whatever and you cannot get a higher O2 concentration vs a standard grow. What remains to be seen is if this elevated O2 has a measurable impact to the plant. My guess is it will. I plan to prove or disprove that with this thread.

So compare this grow to coco, because that is what I am starting them in. Once they bust thru that, they are suspended in a nutrient rich 90% O2 fog.

And the bacteria and fungi is on the roots, not the disks. But yes you can feed them via fog too, I'm quite literally doing that right now before your eyes.

What brings you to the farm? You seem like you might be in the supply end of the market, more than just a casual grower such as myself.

 

[Jay13.aka.DutchStuff]

It can and coco and hydo can have very similar growth. This is exactly what @Moe.Red and I are working on now… raising o2 above current saturation levels in hydro, aero, fod and soiless

After all, it's all about the water/air ratio. More water available for the roots means less available oxygen and more available oxygen means less available water
Do you have scientific sources that show that in an aeroponic system, where as I said the roots are constantly covered with water, you get a better oxygen supply than in a substrate with thousands of small air pockets?

And I can't complain about the growth rate at all, quite the opposite. SoG with many plants is impossible, already the second attempt now, and the plants overgrow each other. Left side SoG with only 3 days veg time with low lights.
In any case I have to take next time less plants
(and make a grow diary here)

 

[Moe.Red]

(and make a grow diary here)

Please do and tag me in to follow along by typing the @ then the username and a drop down box will come up, so like @Jay13.aka.DutchStuff

 

[Jay13.aka.DutchStuff]

What brings you to the farm? You seem like you might be in the supply end of the market, more than just a casual grower such as myself.

Oh no, just a guy from europe who's reading here for half a year, got deep into coco with aqua, saw this thread today and thought it is time to write something here

 

[Saul.Goodman]

Oh no, just a guy from europe who's reading here for half a year, got deep into coco with aqua, saw this thread today and thought it is time to write something here

With Aqua or with @Aqua Man (We call him Aqua)? Welcome to the Farm either way. You should post some pics and get to know the community

 

[Moe.Red]

I dunno what im even talking about but can the fogger b made out of alloy to dissipiate the heat?

Mount the foggers externally on a heat sink for a base?

would require a design change by cutting holes in the bottom to have the disc portion only inside.

Maybe i say to much?

This is kind of what I'm dreaming of for my own setup. Have the foggers in a dedicated reservoir and push it into individual plant sites similar to multisite DWC or NFT.

I'd think you could get a lot of cooling just from that bit of travel through the lower ambient temps of the pipework.

Think @Moe.Red and I talked about that before. Definitely some workarounds available for this.

its either.

1. remove the heat source from the water if possible.

2. Adress the heat after its transferred to the water.

imo number 1. Is the most economical if it can be done

Thanks for all the ideas guys, here's my plan, check my design if you would:

Use a small res just large enough for the fogger head and a float valve.
Connect the float valve to the external res.
Heat only a small area where the roots will never touch.

Ultimately I think the same amount of heat will be released into the tote and therefore the roots, but it is a constant current being pushed out. so heat will be exhausted via air leaving the tote at 1L/m. The tote is about 200L space useable. So it turns over every 2 hours. I'll just have to see if that is good enough. I'm gonna try it on the flower tent tomorrow and take some measurements.

I think this will be a good fit, and I'll 3D print a mount for the fogger and get rid of the float is in to save a ton of space.

 

[Moe.Red]

Don't rhizospheres create their own microclimate that they can, to some extent, regulate?

I don't quite see the logic in any media - even one that's exceptionally porous and inert - providing more mobility than air/vapor. The vapor solution is constantly exchanging places with air and I can't imagine the way plants uptake oxygen to be anything that wouldn't take advantage of that refresh rate. In the example of DWC, sure, because the oxygenation occurs in water, but anything that significantly suspends the rootzone above the solution, I would think would benefit from the superior transfer of air/vapor.

Nor do I see the insulating property of a medium to really be all that important if we're talking about growth rates and optimization. Ideally, you'd never run into the scenario where you're chasing temperatures, just like, ideally, you'd never want a drip line to clog.

You guys know more than me though, so maybe I'm just talking out my stoned tooter.

Interesting stuff either way.

You may be stoned, but you think like I do. I guess that means time for me to catch up.

This really old stuff is so sleepy time, sounds good for a Saturday nite.

 

[Jay13.aka.DutchStuff]

With Aqua or with @Aqua Man (We call him Aqua)? Welcome to the Farm either way. You should post some pics and get to know the community

With @Aqua Man - How To Water Coco For Best Results -> very good thread

And thank you for the warm welcome, a diary and more pics will follow