Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

[Glomus]

What role does the oxygen play in to the root zone? Is it just keeping aerobics alive or feeding the plant? or both? Honest question, I've seen aeroponics done never done it myself.

 

[Glomus]

I've always wondered about designing a system of oxygen injection to the roots in large outdoor soil grows, like air stones buried in the soil or something idk, lol

 

[Moe.Red]

Here is a blurb:

Aeroponic system
My observation is that plants grown in aeroponic and hydroponic systems benefit most from dissolved oxygen. The photos below are from Choice Growers in Strathmore, Alberta, which uses an aeroponic system. The roots are directly misted with oxygenated water.

The plants shown in Picture 3 have roots with oxygen levels of around 8 to 10 ppm. Note the roots are pure white, contains lots of feeder roots and an abundance of root hair. This translates into very good top growth (Picture 4 ).

Moyhuddin Mirza, PhD, is chief scientist with the Cannabis Nature Company in Edmonton, and a consultant with the cannabis industry.

I just grabbed that from the top of a google search. This is the "simple" answer. The plants need it for maximum root potential and therefore plant health and vigor.

 

[Saul.Goodman]

Here is a blurb:

Aeroponic system
My observation is that plants grown in aeroponic and hydroponic systems benefit most from dissolved oxygen. The photos below are from Choice Growers in Strathmore, Alberta, which uses an aeroponic system. The roots are directly misted with oxygenated water.

The plants shown in Picture 3 have roots with oxygen levels of around 8 to 10 ppm. Note the roots are pure white, contains lots of feeder roots and an abundance of root hair. This translates into very good top growth (Picture 4 ).

Moyhuddin Mirza, PhD, is chief scientist with the Cannabis Nature Company in Edmonton, and a consultant with the cannabis industry.

I just grabbed that from the top of a google search. This is the "simple" answer. The plants need it for maximum root potential and therefore plant health and vigor.

This is nuts to me but totally plausible. I've also never seen it done first hand. +1 @Moe.Red

 

[Glomus]

Here is a blurb:

Aeroponic system
My observation is that plants grown in aeroponic and hydroponic systems benefit most from dissolved oxygen. The photos below are from Choice Growers in Strathmore, Alberta, which uses an aeroponic system. The roots are directly misted with oxygenated water.

The plants shown in Picture 3 have roots with oxygen levels of around 8 to 10 ppm. Note the roots are pure white, contains lots of feeder roots and an abundance of root hair. This translates into very good top growth (Picture 4 ).

Moyhuddin Mirza, PhD, is chief scientist with the Cannabis Nature Company in Edmonton, and a consultant with the cannabis industry.

I just grabbed that from the top of a google search. This is the "simple" answer. The plants need it for maximum root potential and therefore plant health and vigor.

So it's not as simple as the roots drying and absorbing the oxygen out of the air. They need to absorb it through the water when its dissolved. Makes sense, this is kind of why sometimes my over watering remedy in soil is to actually water with fresh water that has oxygen in it, just enough to get the plant through on the way back to a healthy moisture level. It does work.

 

[Moe.Red]

So it's not as simple as the roots drying and absorbing the oxygen out of the air. They need to absorb it through the water when its dissolved. Makes sense, this is kind of why sometimes my over watering remedy in soil is to actually water with fresh water that has oxygen in it, just enough to get the plant through on the way back to a healthy moisture level. It does work.

Actually I think plants can absorb directly from the air, just like leaves do with CO2 during photosynthesis.

 

[Aqua Man]

So it's not as simple as the roots drying and absorbing the oxygen out of the air. They need to absorb it through the water when its dissolved. Makes sense, this is kind of why sometimes my over watering remedy in soil is to actually water with fresh water that has oxygen in it, just enough to get the plant through on the way back to a healthy moisture level. It does work.

Now what if you could safely inject elevated o2 levels that you want into the rootzone and control them. Without tanks, refills or the risk of explosion In all types of grow systems cost effectively with equipment that lasts yrs…. 🤔 without magic of course.

 

[Glomus]

Actually I think plants can absorb directly from the air, just like leaves do with CO2 during photosynthesis.

Got it.

 

[Glomus]

Got it.

I remember reading something about cannabis will use oxygen at night.

 

[Moe.Red]

Since we have a few new folks (the more the merrier) I'll show you what we are working with on this project.

 

[Moe.Red]

This is the electronics to go with it:

 

[Moe.Red]

Is the root zone 90?

Phase change the oxygen at the post supply/pre nozzle level?

Supply (pressurized) > drop pressure> nozzle

Too complex...

Cool it like an engine. Aluminum slab with internal channels, wrapping the nozzle bank and have a glycol radiator with peltier attached to drop the temp.

I would bet the 02 levels raise functional temp enough where 5-10 degrees could be skimmed at nozzle. But, it's got to go somewhere.

Yeah this is a brain buster. Your running up against the 2nd law here.

Increase the res volume?

Yes, the root zone is approaching 90. It never quite gets there but close.

I'm going to try a much smaller solution tomorrow. We'll see.

 

[Glomus]

Wow you guys are really getting it dialed. Impressive.

 

[Aqua Man]

Wow you guys are really getting it dialed. Impressive.

Yeah this @Moe.Red guy dont fuck around…. I believe the term im looking for is proper.

He really is a basement dwelling genius… i tried to teach him how to use a tool once… and only once lol.

 

[Bluebuddha]

Since we have a few new folks (the more the merrier) I'll show you what we are working with on this project.

View attachment 1283065

Yeah, I figured you had it goin on. I was right to feel inspired by you. Damn. Great looking, CLEAN room(s).

 

[Jay13.aka.DutchStuff]

Good morning guys 🙂
And hello @N1ghtL1ght - credit to him for giving me the hint to look for Aqua's thread here some time ago 😊


Yesterday I searched for the article I mentioned on manics again and found it. I've read it some time ago and I think I remembered some things from it quite well.
This article goes deep into detail on substrate science and specially how oxygen works in the root zone.
I recommend to read the full article (with manics partly a pain in the a**, very long articles, but it pays out 😉 ) if you want to get a deep dive into it.

Manic Botanix

manicbotanix.com

I'll try to put the important things here. Sorry in advance, this will also be something more to read

Referring to your comments

What role does the oxygen play in to the root zone? Is it just keeping aerobics alive or feeding the plant? or both? Honest question, I've seen aeroponics done never done it myself.

Here is a blurb:

Aeroponic system
My observation is that plants grown in aeroponic and hydroponic systems benefit most from dissolved oxygen. The photos below are from Choice Growers in Strathmore, Alberta, which uses an aeroponic system. The roots are directly misted with oxygenated water.

The plants shown in Picture 3 have roots with oxygen levels of around 8 to 10 ppm. Note the roots are pure white, contains lots of feeder roots and an abundance of root hair. This translates into very good top growth (Picture 4 ).

Moyhuddin Mirza, PhD, is chief scientist with the Cannabis Nature Company in Edmonton, and a consultant with the cannabis industry.

I just grabbed that from the top of a google search. This is the "simple" answer. The plants need it for maximum root potential and therefore plant health and vigor.

This explains how much oxygen can be dissolved in water and why it works to oxygenate roots underwater

Please note the last two sections here.

The oxygen dissolved in the water is not important when growing in subtrates, but atmospheric oxygen that comes to the roots.

Going deeper into it:

And here you can see why coco perlit is such a good substrate. It has nearly the air porosity of pure perlite, but much more water holding capacity.

In summary:

More oxygen to the roots does not mean more growth. There must be enough oxygen so that light and nutrients are optimally utilized.
Here you can also refer to Bugbee: Light is the engine that drives everything, and all other factors must match it.
Coco perlit is probably ideally suited to provide an optimal root environment for the plant under all conditions.
Very good water holding capacity, very good oxygen supply and other advantages, which I have already posted above in relation to beneficial additives and natural growth promoting benefits of coco coir.
In my opinion, the aero and aeroponic leads to the erroneous conclusion that the system would bring a better oxygen supply.
From a scientific point of view, however, I see it after the article that an aeroponic system in terms of oxygen supply is comparable to a DWC, in which the water is also always well aerated.
As I said, if the roots are always covered with water, even if it is only a thin film, they are dependent on the oxygen dissolved in the water and can not be better supplied than in an air-filled substrate in which the roots have contact with atmospheric oxygen.

 

[shaganja]

Seen the fog cloner, and makes sense. Perfect amount of oxygen and water. Pics show vigorous root growth.

 

[beluga]

I see some of what I was missing in my understanding now, thanks for taking the time to lay it out.

aero and aeroponic leads to the erroneous conclusion that the system would bring a better oxygen supply

Wouldn't that just be the erroneous interpretation of the definition aeroponics? We know full and well it's not growing in just air. It's hydroponics through and through and I can only imagine you're benefiting from the dissolved oxygen levels of both the water and the atmosphere.

if the roots are always covered with water, even if it is only a thin film, they are dependent on the oxygen dissolved in the water and can not be better supplied than in an air-filled substrate in which the roots have contact with atmospheric oxygen

I'm a little confused here, if plants are dependent on dissolved oxygen in water, how can they be no better supplied with oxygen than in an air-filled substrate? Wouldn't the air/vapor mixture be an air-filled substrate? And if that air carries an adequate or optimal amount of water with an adequate or optimal amount of dissolved oxygen, wouldn't you see those oxygen uptake mechanisms benefit from the hybrid environment?
I would think there would never be a constant film of water given that the air/vapor mixture is constantly recycling physically and physiologically. And I imagine that exchange is where you see a similar benefit of a very-porous media/substrate, perhaps greater. This statement, to me, seems particularly in favor aero/fogponics performance.

I see where well-performing media excels in terms of providing a favorable root environment under all conditions, but I don't think that versatility is synonymous with optimization. As I see it, we're on the quest for The condition, not all conditions.

 

[Jay13.aka.DutchStuff]

I'm a little confused here, if plants are dependent on dissolved oxygen in water, how can they be no better supplied with oxygen than in an air-filled substrate? Wouldn't the air/vapor mixture be an air-filled substrate? And if that air carries an adequate or optimal amount of water with an adequate or optimal amount of dissolved oxygen, wouldn't you see those oxygen uptake mechanisms benefit from the hybrid environment?
I would think there would never be a constant film of water given that the air/vapor mixture is constantly recycling physically and physiologically. And I imagine that exchange is where you see a similar benefit of a very-porous media/substrate, perhaps greater. This statement, to me, seems particularly in favor aero/fogponics performance.

The article answers the questions.
Water can contain much less oxygen than air.
And as I said, it depends on the water/air ratio.
If the roots are misted throughout, they will be wet throughout.
The water forms a barrier, oxygen is only taken up from the water, which as the article says contains much less than the air.
You have a very good water supply with the continuously wet roots, but have less air at the roots.
As the article says, it is a jing and jang with water and air at the roots.

 

[Moe.Red]

In summary:

More oxygen to the roots does not mean more growth. There must be enough oxygen so that light and nutrients are optimally utilized.
Here you can also refer to Bugbee: Light is the engine that drives everything, and all other factors must match it.
Coco perlit is probably ideally suited to provide an optimal root environment for the plant under all conditions.
Very good water holding capacity, very good oxygen supply and other advantages, which I have already posted above in relation to beneficial additives and natural growth promoting benefits of coco coir.
In my opinion, the aero and aeroponic leads to the erroneous conclusion that the system would bring a better oxygen supply.
From a scientific point of view, however, I see it after the article that an aeroponic system in terms of oxygen supply is comparable to a DWC, in which the water is also always well aerated.
As I said, if the roots are always covered with water, even if it is only a thin film, they are dependent on the oxygen dissolved in the water and can not be better supplied than in an air-filled substrate in which the roots have contact with atmospheric oxygen.

I think the information provided is good for standard grows.

This is not a standard grow. As far as I know, this has not been tried before, and there is no paper or study that exists to explain it.

Where I am struggling with your position is that you seem to be hung up on which substrate is the best. I am testing the theory that no substrate, rather O2 rich air laden with water and nutrients will outperform every substrate.

I look at it this way - coco, perlite, hydroton, whatever, are all mostly inert, and really only provide a mechanical substrate, but block some of the free transfer of molecules. They have to, they are pushing on roots and in and of themselves do nothing to aid plant respiration, photosynthesis, or anything really. They just hold the plant and wick nutes. I'm eliminating that and roots have complete unrestricted access to what it needs.

It's why the roots look different too.

We will see in a couple months.