Help needed with commercial grow

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J

junioninio

34
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Hi guys,

I could do with some help! myself and 2 friends are setting up a small commercial grow facility, I have quite a bit of experience on small scale hydro setups, but nothing of this scale! its a little daunting but I am hoping we can pull it off. I am currently trying to size appropriate climate control measures, we are looking at quest products for our dehumidifying requirements, what I am struggling with is sizing the appropriate unit to run in collaboration with the humidifier we will need for the vegetative stage, I would really appreciate some expert advice on this, we will be incorporating trolmaster hydro x pro to our setup and in the first room (trial room) will be running 10x medic grow smart 8 full spectrum 760W LED's (open to suggestions) with a custom built ebb and flow table system-(also open to suggestions), room dimensions are 18.65ft X 16.11ft X 11ft (H) As you can see we're really in the early stages, we have the property and are hoping to have the ladies started within 6 weeks. We really are hoping to achieve as much automation as possible, any help would be greatly received guys. Thanks in advance!
 
N

nicolajanjak

139
43
Yop
my 3 cents

top feed (w/ pc drippers) will be superior to ebb flood (best control of water content in the blocks, no water wasted, always feeding fresh, no recirc and the res outside the room)

quest are the rolls but expensive
you can get great results with less expensive dehueys
a good dehuey will have a integrated hygrometer, no need for external climate management

a humidifier can be useful for the first days, especially if you start with clones straight out the dome
staying around 60 % the whole run is IME the sweet spot

IDK for leds
hps give great results, its mostly dependant on grower skills

be sure to get quality air conditioners, set at 24degree C with HPS
with leds IDK, around 26degree maybe

climate and watering consistency are the key
 
RootsRuler

RootsRuler

2,389
263
Will you be building a sealed room? Will you be using CO2 injection? Are you looking for an all in one, centralized environmental controller to monitor remotely or will your grower be on site daily to be able to monitor and tweak the individual parts of your system to be able to dial in the environment? Why does your irrigation system need to be custom? Why did you decide on an Ebb and Flow system? What kind of media will you be running for your E&F system? Will you be using pivot tables to take advantage of the limited space you have? Will the entire room be dedicated to flower or will you be doing all steps on site? How much power do you have to work with? What type of air conditioning are you planning on employing?

In a room as small as yours you don't need corporate greenhouse grade controls. Most of the off the shelf/retail gear will be more than enough for your needs and will be cheaper than the pro gear.

I set up a 20 x 20 x 8 garage with no dehumidifier using only the dehumidification from the 3 ton Mini Split. The lights were double ended, 1000w HID's which run much hotter than LED's. Lights were on a timer and plants were hand fed at customers request but an easy auto irrigate could have been employed. I assume you'll be using hydro methods since you mentioned it earlier.

Quest makes a nice dehu but there are others that are just as reliable and cheaper. This unit should be more than enough for your needs:


This humidifier should be able to humidify your room to the level you want and has a continuos water supply so you don't have to constantly be refilling:


Pair it with an Inkbird controller to automate it:


This is more or less the footprint you have to work with.

6 plant LST pre flower


IMO, running all your processes through one main controller is not advisable at the level you are at. If the controller goes down your entire operation stops. I would set up sub stations of automation configured in a way that if one of those sub stations goes down you can still operate while fixing the issue. They can all be WiFied to your phone or whatever control screen you desire but centralizing only makes sense, IMO, when you're dealing with a large greenhouse where you need to pull up data and be able to monitor vast areas quickly.

Right now you're just starting out. Money is going to be the main driver in whether your business lives or dies. Preserve as much of it as you can now and once your setup is making money, you and your partners can decide whether you want to upgrade the facility with fancier controls or you may want to keep the one you have going and open up a larger one that would warrant the fancier controls.
 
J

junioninio

34
18
Hi guys thanks for coming back to me, some really good advice, definitely thought provoking, apologies for the delay in replying, I didn’t get an alert for some reason/ didn’t check emails!

@RootsRuler to answer some of your questions, firstly we are based in Southern Thailand, Relative Humidity and heat can get pretty crazy out here, which is why I was leaning towards the LED option, the A/C unit will be working hard enough with the ambient room/building temperature, adding the increased heat HPS throw out could be more added cost in cooling than it’s worth or so I’ve figured?

I have without doubt over complicated things both in my head and in my initial post, so apologies for that.

I was looking into ebb and flow as we are quite limited as to what’s available out here both from a cost perspective and quality, it’s the Wild West out here atm, things move very slowly with importing products and it can get very costly, that’s if customs don’t seize it just because they can!
The only custom built element would be getting the tables/trays made to size to adequately fill the space available. Was thinking rolling benches? I’ve had some not so great experiences of soil available to me out here which has really put me off going down that route, plus with Thailands abundance of tropical pests that to presents another potential threat from the off.
I have only ever grown in rock wool medium using NFT hydro tanks in the UK, which may also have a bearing on my bias towards hydro systems. Hydro again however isn’t without its problems, firstly we have to pump the water from a well located 50 metres away from the property then pump it 2 stories up, run it through an R/O system then chillers to the reservoirs when needed as the water temp is close to 30c 🥴

I want to run Co2 as well.

I am going to do my very best to seal the room (see attached pics) starting with building a low profile stud box section around the door and window, then insulating and panelling it with OSB, sealing/painting white etc.

The door into the room currently opens inward, so I was thinking of removing the door, building a frame externally with a new door opening outwards. If that makes sense? I’m sooooo conflicted with contradictory information I am either told or read around extraction/ airflow, do I cut a section above the new door I am planning on building and run a 6 inch/8 inch ducting system out to exhaust the air out when needed? I understand I need airflow, but with A/C I’ve been told if it hits the far wall I don’t need to extract, which sounds like utter shit IMO. Man I need some help guys! I will be doing more or less all of the work myself, I can run electrics in and A/C myself, I am not messing around with 3 phase final connections out here so may need a sparky for that, that’s if we need 3 phase initially for just this room.

The plan is to initially do all stages in this room at least for a couple of crops, this will be my baby from start to finish, I will be responsible for the build and tending to the grow. Then fingers crossed onto the other 6 rooms of the 3 story building we have if everything goes according to plan.

I’m more than open to any suggestions/ modifications. I know I will be coming up against all kinds of issues getting this right, but I WILL in time and hopefully not too much money get this room dialled in for maximum output and quality.

I will definitely document everything going forwards from build to harvest, (as soon as the tenancy is signed) thanks for taking the time to help me guys really appreciated
 
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C75FD464 7124 4154 944E CC219020B641
J

junioninio

34
18
Yop
my 3 cents

top feed (w/ pc drippers) will be superior to ebb flood (best control of water content in the blocks, no water wasted, always feeding fresh, no recirc and the res outside the room)

quest are the rolls but expensive
you can get great results with less expensive dehueys
a good dehuey will have a integrated hygrometer, no need for external climate management

a humidifier can be useful for the first days, especially if you start with clones straight out the dome
staying around 60 % the whole run is IME the sweet spot

IDK for leds
hps give great results, its mostly dependant on grower skills

be sure to get quality air conditioners, set at 24degree C with HPS
with leds IDK, around 26degree maybe

climate and watering consistency are the key
Thanks brother, question what do you mean by no need for external climate management?
 
N

nicolajanjak

139
43
Thanks brother, question what do you mean by no need for external climate management?
this
41vtry1HDQS.jpg

it will be more confortable with it but if your don't have much money to spend you can go without
the AC will manage the temperature
the humidifier (for start) and the dehumidifier will take care of the RH
with experience you will be able to see if the room get too humid (by the leaves behaviour and by entering in the room each morning/ evening )
concerning co2 you can get expensive controllers, but IMO here is the best controller
controleur-de-co2-superpro.jpg

it only cost around 250e and does the job perfectly, set and forget
U can use it with liquid co2 or with burner (more adequate in your case if you run a warehouse)
 
N

nicolajanjak

139
43
I used these drippers for years with great success, pro material
goutteurs-auto-regulants-pc-junior-tv-netafim-4-l-h-sortie-tete-vipere-pour-tubing-3-5-mm-lot-1000-pcs.jpg

with a good pump
ga510-0178.png
you can feed hundreds of them without any issue
for the AC be sure to get high end, of a good brand (mitsu or toshiba are great, put your money here, not in fancy gadgets)
 
J

junioninio

34
18
Couldn’t agree more with the A/C, we have set aside a decent budget for that. What’s your thoughts on extraction/airflow? Thanks for the input, much appreciated
 
N

nicolajanjak

139
43
no vents, at all
thats the goal
closed loop, sealed room
 
J

junioninio

34
18
Really!! Ok wow this changes everything! So excuse my ignorance, but I don’t need to draw fresh air into the room or expel the old air? because surely the A/C will just condition the exhisting air in there not actually bring in new air?
 
N

nicolajanjak

139
43
here the dehu brands I used with success for years
they are undestructible
ttk-170-s-8df2.jpg
 
N

nicolajanjak

139
43
Really!! Ok wow this changes everything! So excuse my ignorance, but I don’t need to draw fresh air into the room or expel the old air? because surely the A/C will just condition the exhisting air in there not actually bring in new air?
yeah we don't want outside air
it can contain contaminants(fungus, viroids,dust..) and it will impede you to control properly the climate in the space
plants will use the CO2 you give em and expel oxygen
during night they stop using co2 and use a bit of oxygen for respiration
its 100% set and forget
there is no such thing as old air for plants

plus venting is a waste of electricity (waste of heating and cooling) and of co2
 
RootsRuler

RootsRuler

2,389
263
Your pics didn't come up so if you can repost that would be great.

Let's start at step one. Power.

How much RELIABLE power is available to you? This will dictate the size of your grow. Room size is important as footprint allows you to produce more product but it doesn't matter how large a space you have if power is inadequate to power the entire space. You mentioned your spot being in a 3 story building that you eventually want to use to expand your grow. Find out the total capacity the building has in regards to power so that when you get to that stage you don't have to stop everything to upgrade your main power box and possibly, the main line transformer depending on the needs of the grow if it isn't adequate. I'm going to assume that your location was probably originally designed for offices so it may not have enough power to do what you want once you get to a certain point in regards to your expansion. Planning this out will give you an idea of what it will take to fully implement the entire building.

You mentioned Medic Grows as your lights of choice. I looked at their website and some of the light specs. It didn't tell me the amp draw so I'm going to assume that your lights are pulling around 9 amps on startup @ 120v which is average for a light of this power level. If you run 240v your lights will use around 5 amps at startup. Lights should run continuously on around 5 amps @120v or 2.5 amps at 240v.

If you run your lights on 120v power you'll need to have at least 90 amps available to you. 240v will halve your amp needs for light.

Your A/C. I'm not sure how large an A/C you will be employing but because of the ambient climate you'll be operating in I would oversize it a bit so that you aren't running it at full all the time which will shorten the lifespan of the unit. I like to give 20% - 30% headroom on all my gear so that I'm not burning it out over time. Same goes for main power box size. I don't think anyone likes having to replace gear, especially in the middle of a run. I also like to have that extra headroom in case I encounter something out of the ordinary like a temporary heat wave or whatever.
While heat generated from lights will be the biggest foe to your A/C system, in your case, you get to deal with the ambient climate outside heating up your room from outside in......unless you have adequate insulation to be able to use the cooled air to lower air temp inside the room and not have to do double duty cooling the walls of the room. As you'll see, the proper design of a grow room is dependent on many factors working in concert with each other so planning is crucial if you want to minimize issues down the road.
Judging by the size of your room I would imagine a 3 - 4 ton A/C would be able to do the job. Probably 3 ton would be enough but, again, it's all dependent on how many heat sources you need to control so consider how many heat sources you'll have in the room and account for as many as you can in regards to their output so that you can properly size your A/C.
I assume a mini split would be your choice of A/C style? A mini split of 3 tons will pull around 15 amps at startup @ 120v. 7 amps @ 240v. Operating draw will be around 10 amps @120v. 6 amps @ 240v.

These two components will be the two biggest draws of electricity for you. Don't forget to factor in all the other gear like dehumidifier, pumps and fans that you'll need to move air and water around the room so that you have an idea of how much power you will need to be able to reliably run your space.
 
J

junioninio

34
18
Holy shit, you have literally changed my life brother, shows how long I’ve been out the game! I have literally been loosing sleep around how I can overcome extraction! Thank you so much. Love the netafim products, they are really easily sourced out here and very cheap, need to rethink table setups now, really all I need is modified racking as benches and trays I guess, thinking of using rock wool now with netafim drippers
 
RootsRuler

RootsRuler

2,389
263
yeah we don't want outside air
it can contain contaminants(fungus, viroids,dust..) and it will impede you to control properly the climate in the space
plants will use the CO2 you give em and expel oxygen
during night they stop using co2 and use a bit of oxygen for respiration
its 100% set and forget
there is no such thing as old air for plants

plus venting is a waste of electricity (waste of heating and cooling) and of co2
So zero make up air?
 
J

junioninio

34
18
Your pics didn't come up so if you can repost that would be great.

Let's start at step one. Power.

How much RELIABLE power is available to you? This will dictate the size of your grow. Room size is important as footprint allows you to produce more product but it doesn't matter how large a space you have if power is inadequate to power the entire space. You mentioned your spot being in a 3 story building that you eventually want to use to expand your grow. Find out the total capacity the building has in regards to power so that when you get to that stage you don't have to stop everything to upgrade your main power box and possibly, the main line transformer depending on the needs of the grow if it isn't adequate. I'm going to assume that your location was probably originally designed for offices so it may not have enough power to do what you want once you get to a certain point in regards to your expansion. Planning this out will give you an idea of what it will take to fully implement the entire building.

You mentioned Medic Grows as your lights of choice. I looked at their website and some of the light specs. It didn't tell me the amp draw so I'm going to assume that your lights are pulling around 9 amps on startup @ 120v which is average for a light of this power level. If you run 240v your lights will use around 5 amps at startup. Lights should run continuously on around 5 amps @120v or 2.5 amps at 240v.

If you run your lights on 120v power you'll need to have at least 90 amps available to you. 240v will halve your amp needs for light.

Your A/C. I'm not sure how large an A/C you will be employing but because of the ambient climate you'll be operating in I would oversize it a bit so that you aren't running it at full all the time which will shorten the lifespan of the unit. I like to give 20% - 30% headroom on all my gear so that I'm not burning it out over time. Same goes for main power box size. I don't think anyone likes having to replace gear, especially in the middle of a run. I also like to have that extra headroom in case I encounter something out of the ordinary like a temporary heat wave or whatever.
While heat generated from lights will be the biggest foe to your A/C system, in your case, you get to deal with the ambient climate outside heating up your room from outside in......unless you have adequate insulation to be able to use the cooled air to lower air temp inside the room and not have to do double duty cooling the walls of the room. As you'll see, the proper design of a grow room is dependent on many factors working in concert with each other so planning is crucial if you want to minimize issues down the road.
Judging by the size of your room I would imagine a 3 - 4 ton A/C would be able to do the job. Probably 3 ton would be enough but, again, it's all dependent on how many heat sources you need to control so consider how many heat sources you'll have in the room and account for as many as you can in regards to their output so that you can properly size your A/C.
I assume a mini split would be your choice of A/C style? A mini split of 3 tons will pull around 15 amps at startup @ 120v. 7 amps @ 240v. Operating draw will be around 10 amps @120v. 6 amps @ 240v.

These two components will be the two biggest draws of electricity for you. Don't forget to factor in all the other gear like dehumidifier, pumps and fans that you'll need to move air and water around the room so that you have an idea of how much power you will need to be able to reliably run your space.
Thanks bro, this is definitely something I’ve looking at from the off, taking into account the plans for expansion, I really can’t see any alternative than a 3 phase 415v feed. I will be visiting shortly and will get pics of fuse box etc, but given the age of the property and like you said taking into account the previous application, it’s pretty much a given that we will be bringing a new feed in, something that does concern me is the frequency of power cuts out here, power can regularly go out for a few hours at times, something that hasn’t happened in this area (the area I live for the past 4+ months)
 
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85FE2C33 F195 4929 84C3 CA5A39C2E82D
Mikedin

Mikedin

Staff
Supporter
4,004
263
Thanks bro, this is definitely something I’ve looking at from the off, taking into account the plans for expansion, I really can’t see any alternative than a 3 phase 415v feed. I will be visiting shortly and will get pics of fuse box etc, but given the age of the property and like you said taking into account the previous application, it’s pretty much a given that we will be bringing a new feed in, something that does concern me is the frequency of power cuts out here, power can regularly go out for a few hours at times, something that hasn’t happened in this area (the area I live for the past 4+ months)
Maybe look into a generac backup power generator for 24/7 emergency power, only running a few hours a day during some blackouts would actually save you money in electric but up your fuel price for natural gas etc, Might even be worth it to factor gas vs electric costs for a full month of running and stay off the grid all together, some places natural gas prices are cheaper than electric due to increased demand for all these electric vehicles etc, the electric companies are starting to gouge on prices
 
N

nicolajanjak

139
43
Thanks bro, this is definitely something I’ve looking at from the off, taking into account the plans for expansion, I really can’t see any alternative than a 3 phase 415v feed. I will be visiting shortly and will get pics of fuse box etc, but given the age of the property and like you said taking into account the previous application, it’s pretty much a given that we will be bringing a new feed in, something that does concern me is the frequency of power cuts out here, power can regularly go out for a few hours at times, something that hasn’t happened in this area (the area I live for the past 4+ months)
cleaner than an hospital
 
strider26554

strider26554

228
63
Hi guys thanks for coming back to me, some really good advice, definitely thought provoking, apologies for the delay in replying, I didn’t get an alert for some reason/ didn’t check emails!

@RootsRuler to answer some of your questions, firstly we are based in Southern Thailand, Relative Humidity and heat can get pretty crazy out here, which is why I was leaning towards the LED option, the A/C unit will be working hard enough with the ambient room/building temperature, adding the increased heat HPS throw out could be more added cost in cooling than it’s worth or so I’ve figured?

I have without doubt over complicated things both in my head and in my initial post, so apologies for that.

I was looking into ebb and flow as we are quite limited as to what’s available out here both from a cost perspective and quality, it’s the Wild West out here atm, things move very slowly with importing products and it can get very costly, that’s if customs don’t seize it just because they can!
The only custom built element would be getting the tables/trays made to size to adequately fill the space available. Was thinking rolling benches? I’ve had some not so great experiences of soil available to me out here which has really put me off going down that route, plus with Thailands abundance of tropical pests that to presents another potential threat from the off.
I have only ever grown in rock wool medium using NFT hydro tanks in the UK, which may also have a bearing on my bias towards hydro systems. Hydro again however isn’t without its problems, firstly we have to pump the water from a well located 50 metres away from the property then pump it 2 stories up, run it through an R/O system then chillers to the reservoirs when needed as the water temp is close to 30c 🥴

I want to run Co2 as well.

I am going to do my very best to seal the room (see attached pics) starting with building a low profile stud box section around the door and window, then insulating and panelling it with OSB, sealing/painting white etc.

The door into the room currently opens inward, so I was thinking of removing the door, building a frame externally with a new door opening outwards. If that makes sense? I’m sooooo conflicted with contradictory information I am either told or read around extraction/ airflow, do I cut a section above the new door I am planning on building and run a 6 inch/8 inch ducting system out to exhaust the air out when needed? I understand I need airflow, but with A/C I’ve been told if it hits the far wall I don’t need to extract, which sounds like utter shit IMO. Man I need some help guys! I will be doing more or less all of the work myself, I can run electrics in and A/C myself, I am not messing around with 3 phase final connections out here so may need a sparky for that, that’s if we need 3 phase initially for just this room.

The plan is to initially do all stages in this room at least for a couple of crops, this will be my baby from start to finish, I will be responsible for the build and tending to the grow. Then fingers crossed onto the other 6 rooms of the 3 story building we have if everything goes according to plan.

I’m more than open to any suggestions/ modifications. I know I will be coming up against all kinds of issues getting this right, but I WILL in time and hopefully not too much money get this room dialled in for maximum output and quality.

I will definitely document everything going forwards from build to harvest, (as soon as the tenancy is signed) thanks for taking the time to help me guys really appreciated
consideration for entry door..think airlock,,,clean entry room tht is sealed from the main grow area, if tropical pests are as bad in TL as they hve elsewhere,,theyn will find their way in. have an area to make yourself benign to the main grow area and to seal off the grow area from traffic. have a seperate entry for any other parts of the building that are not part of the main grow area.
 
N

nicolajanjak

139
43
So zero make up air?
i'm not sure to understand the question
there is no utility to replenish the air
another factor I didnt mention is the smell will stay in the room
if you vent some of the odorous molecules will make their way out, even if you use carbons
plus carbon filters are another expense you will avoid
 

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