How would you prune or defoliate this outdoor plant Week 2/3 of flower or should I not?

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L

Letsgrowit

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I have only topped and removed feeder fan leaves that have gotten old and some that various insects have eaten. This one is about 5” tall in a 20 gallons of living soil, all organic. Outdoors. Flowering week 2-3 (hard to tell exactly).

The reason I ask is I see a lot of contradictory info on if I should prune or defoliate outdoors. And I don’t want to screw it up, stress it out. I read about removing inner pointed leaves, overlapping leaves, lollipop-ping and so on.

Also this pic is around sunset so the nastic nature of the leave are pointing down, as they get ready for bed, it’s praying up and seems super happy during the day.
 
How would you prune or defoliate this outdoor plant week 23 of flower or should i not
cpurola

cpurola

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Looks great!
The thing with growing outside is... you don't have as much control over the weather or bugs that may reduce the number of your leaves naturally.
Like you, I take large fan leaves off the main stalk once they start blooming to give the plant more air flow and ventilation, and/or if they are visibly damaged or yellow.
I grow only outdoor in Michigan since it's been legal, 4years, so I don't have alot of experience with cannabis, but I'm finding it responds like many other plants.
Just use common sense and take a good look at it every day.
Sometimes it's good to have someone else look at it too. My hubby is no gardener but spotted some bud rot on one of my autos before I did. Sometimes I think I don't see it because I don't want to see it. 😉
 
J.dub

J.dub

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I feel ya -- you don't see or read a lot about people's pruning methods on outdoor grows.

I'll throw in my 2 cents, and recommend a full on schwazze -- it's the perfect time! The sun makes outdoor plants super-hardy and great candidates, and your living soil will allow them to recover as they need, and almost immediately. 20 gallons is plenty of media, and they'll grow back what they need. Done at the right time, it will only help your grow. Bend the main branches a little, and if they are still pretty flimsy, then I'd have at it. Here's the caveats:
--yours seem healthy in the pics, but if you think your soil mix won't make it or the finishing weather is iffy where you grow, I'd err on the side of caution, but at least remove the suckers and the bigger hand leaves and lower fan leaves that don't really have a great future.
--If the cultivar is finicky or not super-stable, also err on side of caution
--If the stems are already kind of woody, then I'd also err on the side of caution, as they may be farther into their flowering cycle than you think, and any excess removal would be more harm than help.

I'm doing a full defol/schwazze on the last of 3 of my outdoor Mowie Wowie in a couple days, when it's ready. The first two that were Sativa-dom and leafier have already been done twice (2 weeks apart), and both times recovered almost immediately and are booming with buds. I don't want to hijack, but if you want I can post the before/after pics from 8/21 when I schwazze'd last, and then snap a quick pic of today and how they've recovered in 10 gal fabric pots. LMK, but I think you're good to get pretty heavy-handed with a prune and defol, imo
 
J.dub

J.dub

132
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I'm doing a full defol/schwazze on the last of 3 of my outdoor Mowie Wowie in a couple days, when it's ready. The first two that were Sativa-dom and leafier have already been done twice (2 weeks apart), and both times recovered almost immediately and are booming with buds. I don't want to hijack, but if you want I can post the before/after pics from 8/21 when I schwazze'd last, and then snap a quick pic of today and how they've recovered in 10 gal fabric pots. LMK, but I think you're good to get pretty heavy-handed with a prune and defol, imo

FWIW, her you go!

Oldest plant. I didn't take pics of the before and after from the first schwazze 2 weeks earlier, but as you can see, plenty of leaves grew back.
Before 2nd schwazze, 8/24:
IMG 0824


After 2nd schwazze, 8/24:
IMG 0825

I left the last 2 sets of young fan leaves at each cola tip, but otherwise, all fan leaves go. Here's a pic from this morning when I was tending the garden -- just 2 days later, and already there's plenty of fan leaves grown back to get her to finish with a proper fade:
IMG 0826

No old hand leaf fodder that ups the water and robs the nutrient needs, and contribute to pests and microclimates -- obvious issues outdoors. YMMV, but I hope it helps you choose!
 
cpurola

cpurola

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FWIW, her you go!

Oldest plant. I didn't take pics of the before and after from the first schwazze 2 weeks earlier, but as you can see, plenty of leaves grew back.
Before 2nd schwazze, 8/24:View attachment 1274835

After 2nd schwazze, 8/24:View attachment 1274836
I left the last 2 sets of young fan leaves at each cola tip, but otherwise, all fan leaves go. Here's a pic from this morning when I was tending the garden -- just 2 days later, and already there's plenty of fan leaves grown back to get her to finish with a proper fade:
View attachment 1274847
No old hand leaf fodder that ups the water and robs the nutrient needs, and contribute to pests and microclimates -- obvious issues outdoors. YMMV, but I hope it helps you choose!
Have you done a side by side comparison grow? One defoliating, one not? Just wondering.

I keep trying to do that with the fertilizers but give up and give them all the same. Outdoor in Southeast Michigan grow.
 
mysticepipedon

mysticepipedon

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Have you done a side by side comparison grow? One defoliating, one not? Just wondering.

I keep trying to do that with the fertilizers but give up and give them all the same. Outdoor in Southeast Michigan grow.
I'm indoors in SE Michigan. Great plant count in this state!
 
J.dub

J.dub

132
63
Have you done a side by side comparison grow? One defoliating, one not? Just wondering.

I keep trying to do that with the fertilizers but give up and give them all the same. Outdoor in Southeast Michigan grow.
In a way, yes, I have done a side by side. I got heavy into defoliating when I grew indoors in my closet illegally back in the 00s in the midwest. I was running some clones, and I was always real nervous about fan leaf removal because of the hubbubb about the importance of fan leaves. I was growing with a MH for veg, and a SonAgro/HPS for flower. In the summer, I always had heat and humidity issues, and the plants took up a ton of water -- especially during the stretch. Trimming was also a lot of work, and even though I was an experienced grower utilizing other training methods (FIM, topping, and ESPECIALLY supercropping), I would end up with quite a bit of larf and foxtails. It sure was pretty looking at all those fan leaves, though! One day I decided to try removing most of the big fan leaves just before flower to combat the humidity and crowding from all the new growth that my training methods brought, and it didn't hurt the plants at all. I noticed a significant improvement in the bud structure of the lower growth at harvest. It also cut down on the watering needs and lowered the reading on the hygrometer. The next run with the same clone, I did a heavy lollipop and defol a few days before 12/12 flip, and my results were even better, and that's how I grew from then on. It was many moons before schwazzing was a term, but, then again, I wasn't quite as extreme as a full schwazze back then, but I removed a lot, and was pretty quick to yank fan leaves at will throughout flower.
I'm no scientist, and don't claim to be, so I can only speculate why it works.
Another story that I'll share is one I remember reading from a grower that left his indoor grow on autopilot for a few days without checking during flower, and came back fo find his plants had outgrown his light height. He said the buds above the light discharge were real underdeveloped, even if the fan leaves were right under the light. The general consensus was always that the fan leaves under each cola are what transpire and photosynthesize for bud growth, but clearly this wasn't the case. There is indeed chlorophyll in buds and sugar leaves, and getting lots of air and lots of good light on all the buds simply makes them grow better.

As for the nutes, I don't really use them in my living soil mix, at least not directly. It's the soil biome that I feed. I'll do various kelp and aloe teas throughout the grow, particularly to combat heat stress, as well as some compost and carb teas, some cyto during veg; but I pretty much just use good water, don't worry about any flushing at the end, and usually the fade takes care of itself. A good fade really brings out those terps, and drastically improves the smoke-ability. I don't like seeing a lot of green close to harvest, and I the last thing I want to see close to the chop is curling leaf edges or any signs of burn, regardless of what the buds look like!
 
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TSD

TSD

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I do light defoliation on leaves outdoors, mostly for airflow purposes. Any giant fan leaves that begin to degrade come off, as well as any damaged or dying leaves, lower branches that will be larf, underside branches that are just clogging up my scrog. I did another haircut yesterday and that will probably be my last big one now that we're in flower, just maintenance now. This is 2 plants scrogged together. About 7.5 x 4 feet in area, big girl in the back needs some more thinning out.
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L

Letsgrowit

49
18
In a way, yes, I have done a side by side. I got heavy into defoliating when I grew indoors in my closet illegally back in the 00s in the midwest. I was running some clones, and I was always real nervous about fan leaf removal because of the hubbubb about the importance of fan leaves. I was growing with a MH for veg, and a SonAgro/HPS for flower. In the summer, I always had heat and humidity issues, and the plants took up a ton of water -- especially during the stretch. Trimming was also a lot of work, and even though I was an experienced grower utilizing other training methods (FIM, topping, and ESPECIALLY supercropping), I would end up with quite a bit of larf and foxtails. It sure was pretty looking at all those fan leaves, though! One day I decided to try removing most of the big fan leaves just before flower to combat the humidity and crowding from all the new growth that my training methods brought, and it didn't hurt the plants at all. I noticed a significant improvement in the bud structure of the lower growth at harvest. It also cut down on the watering needs and lowered the reading on the hygrometer. The next run with the same clone, I did a heavy lollipop and defol a few days before 12/12 flip, and my results were even better, and that's how I grew from then on. It was many moons before schwazzing was a term, but, then again, I wasn't quite as extreme as a full schwazze back then, but I removed a lot, and was pretty quick to yank fan leaves at will throughout flower.
I'm no scientist, and don't claim to be, so I can only speculate why it works.
Another story that I'll share is one I remember reading from a grower that left his indoor grow on autopilot for a few days without checking during flower, and came back fo find his plants had outgrown his light height. He said the buds above the light discharge were real underdeveloped, even if the fan leaves were right under the light. The general consensus was always that the fan leaves under each cola are what transpire and photosynthesize for bud growth, but clearly this wasn't the case. There is indeed chlorophyll in buds and sugar leaves, and getting lots of air and lots of good light on all the buds simply makes them grow better.

As for the nutes, I don't really use them in my living soil mix, at least not directly. It's the soil biome that I feed. I'll do various kelp and aloe teas throughout the grow, particularly to combat heat stress, as well as some compost and carb teas, some cyto during veg; but I pretty much just use good water, don't worry about any flushing at the end, and usually the fade takes care of itself. A good fade really brings out those terps, and drastically improves the smoke-ability. I don't like seeing a lot of green close to harvest, and I the last thing I want to see close to the chop is curling leaf edges or any signs of burn, regardless of what the buds look like!
That’s amazing. I am bit hesitant to Schwazze but I may try it. I am definitely going thin out the larf and maybe some foxtails. Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s really helpful to see the pics and understand it better outdoors. I’ve seen schwazzing indoors but not outdoors.
 
L

Letsgrowit

49
18
I do light defoliation on leaves outdoors, mostly for airflow purposes. Any giant fan leaves that begin to degrade come off, as well as any damaged or dying leaves, lower branches that will be larf, underside branches that are just clogging up my scrog. I did another haircut yesterday and that will probably be my last big one now that we're in flower, just maintenance now. This is 2 plants scrogged together. About 7.5 x 4 feet in area, big girl in the back needs some more thinning out. View attachment 1274968View attachment 1274969
Looks good. I do need to thin the bottoms on mine. This is a good example of it. The challenge with 7-10” plants is how much to take off… 30% seems crazy to me, like 2-3” of growth.
 
SchwiftyGrower

SchwiftyGrower

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I did a defoliant today and end of week 4 of flowering, before and after attached. Not a lot, just big fan leaves in the way of air flow.
 
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J.dub

J.dub

132
63
That’s amazing. I am bit hesitant to Schwazze but I may try it. I am definitely going thin out the larf and maybe some foxtails. Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s really helpful to see the pics and understand it better outdoors. I’ve seen schwazzing indoors but not outdoors.
You're welcome! Yeah, it's def more of an indoor technique, but I think that's only because ppl think solely about the light penetration aspect of it, and figure that big ol' sun moving at different angles hits the whole canopy, but like I said, that's only one of the benefits. I think Mr. Haupt had a pretty good analogy when he compared it to the plants working out/weightlifting, tearing down fiber and coming back stronger. It's not going to save a bad grow or turn bad genetics into good genetics. There's reports of ppl really F'ing up their plants as well. You got a nice plant on your hands, and you'll get great meds out of that, so you'll be good, whatever you choose.
 
TSD

TSD

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263
Looks good. I do need to thin the bottoms on mine. This is a good example of it. The challenge with 7-10” plants is how much to take off… 30% seems crazy to me, like 2-3” of growth.
Yeah it's a lot when they are already that big, can shock them, best to keep up on it when they are small and in veg.
 
B

BadFish_Genetics

71
33
I did a defoliant today and end of week 4 of flowering, before and after attached. Not a lot, just big fan leaves in the way of air flow.
Wow if that's week 4 she's definitely experiencing some type of heavy stress growmie!. She should be stacked with buds by now, maybe she too busy repairing what youbtearing off, thing of those big fan leaves as solar pa els to feed your plant, better to tuck than cut away. Just my 10 cents growmie! Much Love!
 
SchwiftyGrower

SchwiftyGrower

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Wow if that's week 4 she's definitely experiencing some type of heavy stress growmie!. She should be stacked with buds by now, maybe she too busy repairing what youbtearing off, thing of those big fan leaves as solar pa els to feed your plant, better to tuck than cut away. Just my 10 cents growmie!
Wow if that's week 4 she's definitely experiencing some type of heavy stress growmie!. She should be stacked with buds by now, maybe she too busy repairing what youbtearing off, thing of those big fan leaves as solar pa els to feed your plant, better to tuck than cut away. Just my 10 cents growmie! Much Love!
You would be 100% right. Huge stress on this plant during her veg cycle and once she was in flowering, we had a huge hail storm and snapped a few branches so it took a week or so to heal from that.

This one was chopped already and sadly had to chop early. Now that is dried I’m enjoying the smoke as it cures and it shockingly ended up being pretty damn good, very nice head high.
 
L

Letsgrowit

49
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Thanks growers! Beyond my own “still learning” phase I made the mistake of thinking the Coast of Maine soil I used had enough nutes to last the season so I would only need to do light top dressing. COM soil I got from two different shops was inconsistent IMO. So this one had a N deficiency by flowering. I addressed by top dressing and water soluable N and micronutes too. The leaves greened up a bit and she’s about 40+ days into flowering and looking solid. Greasy and trichomes everywhere. Oh yeah, I also used Tribus and Rootwise to help cycle the nutes.
 
TSD

TSD

2,795
263
Wow if that's week 4 she's definitely experiencing some type of heavy stress growmie!. She should be stacked with buds by now, maybe she too busy repairing what youbtearing off, thing of those big fan leaves as solar pa els to feed your plant, better to tuck than cut away. Just my 10 cents growmie! Much Love!
Yeah I only take off degrading or damaged leaves usually, I get a little more intense once airflow becomes an issue and fall sets it... but mine have so many leaves. There's definitely stress whenever you remove anything, and it's using resources to close the area. Also, anything you leave behind has the possibility to invite mold to grow, and any wound is an opening for pathogens. It's a delicate balance, easy to over do it once you're on a roll... but yeah the fans in that pic all look nice and healthy, I don't usually remove them until they start to degrade and be less efficient or get chewed on by grasshopper or something. Anything damaged is taking resources to repair and is not functioning as it should to aid photosynthesis, so those are the ones I take off. Just my 2 cents, everyone does shit different. Mine also get a dose of food directly after a defol sesh to help them repair.
 
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