Hydroponics Questions - Algae, Beneficial Bact, Enzymes, Sterilization, etc

[RFT]

Experience:

• 3 decades
• aero, hydro, soil
• indoor, greenhouse, outdoor

Current System:

• Greenhouse
• Light Assist
• Light Dep
• Large Scale NFT 24 hr Recirculatory Feed System w/ multiple zones running different nutrient lines & recipes
• Automated EC Dosing & pH management (freshly calibrated)
• H2O chiller system in operation - water temps at constant 68 degrees day & night
• Resi Size - 350+/- gallons
• Nutrients - mostly GenHydro FloraDuo & Cutting Edge Solutions
• DNA - various

Ok... so now you got an idea of my background & system....

PROBLEMS:

• Note: keep in mind that I have many zones independent of each other running at the same time. All variables are controlled so it is very easy to pinpoint cause/effect.
• Algae - normally, with NFT, eliminating light pollution in the NFT system is impossible. Algae will grow, and it's not the biggest problem in the world. But it has been an issue with clogging my feed tubes. So I would like to run a "dead resi", as in, full synthetic nutrients and no living organic matter in my system. That way the tubes stay clean and flowing properly. Im spending way too much time unclogging the tubes on a weekly basis with slime/algae that builds up over a few weeks.
• H2O2 - I attempted to use peroxide (alchemist brand) at a dosage rate of 500ml to the 350 gallon system. This is appx 1/4 the recommended dose. Within 5 minutes 1100 freshly transplanted baby plants wilted and died. I contacted the makers of the product and they said that was about 10x the dosage rate they would use on live plants and that their label specifically only recommends to use as a sterilization agent in between grow cycles. The label actually says that it can be used every four days. When I mentioned this to their rep, he began to stumble on his words. Needless to say, I no longer feel comfortable using this product for anything but sterilization in between grow cycles.
• Physan 20 - my next attempt at preventative management of the algae was to add Physan 20. It worked well at sterilization of the system (killing off any algae prior to flushing the system). I then added it again to a new zone of freshly transplanted babies. I did so at a rate of 2 tablespoons per 350 gallon system. This resulted in the babies wilting and developing a white slime/sludge at the roots. See attached picture, you can see the before & after. Nearly every feed tube was clogged with this same matter, way worse than any algae outbreak I've seen 6-7 weeks into a run.
• System is fully flushed as to remove the Physan 20
• Beneficial Bacteria - Botanicare Hydroguard was then added to the system to heal the roots (assuming the slime is root rot of some sort?) at a dosage rate of 1 liter / 350 gallon system.

SOLUTIONS?

• I need a long term solution to algae management, while also understanding sterilization, beneficial bacteria, and enzymes. Any and all input is welcome.
• Physan 20 - where did I go wrong here? Two different grow shops told me this product was completely safe to use with living plants.
• Botanicare Hydroguard or GenHydro DEFGUARD - both are Beneficial Bacteria (same active ingredient: Bacillus Amyloliquefaciens) to different degrees of potency. It is my understanding that these will help get my babies back to good root health. Correct me if I am wrong.
• Cannazym - I picked up some CANNA Cannazyme but it is my understanding that Enzyme products work best with organic nutrients / soil type systems. Being that I am trying to run a pure water culture system with a "dead resi" of purely synthetic nutrients, enzymes are not the long term solution Im looking for although they would attack the algae would they not?
• GenHydro FloraShield - It is my understanding that this is a sterilization product made up of Beneficial Bacteria that is safe to use with living plants, throughout each grow cycle, as well as a good product for sterilization after a system flush. Im inclined to use a full gallon of FloraShield per 350 gallon system on a weekly basis in between each reservoir flush/exchange. Could this be my long term solution to algae, as well as keeping my feed tubes clean of organic buildup, all while not killing my babies in the process.

thankyou for your help.

 

[chemistry]

Plant your cuttings in a pot that suits the holes in your system, this will sort your light problem, and don't let your root ball sit in the wet, and the gunge will disappear.

 

[Aqua Man]

Experience:

• 3 decades
• aero, hydro, soil
• indoor, greenhouse, outdoor

Current System:

• Greenhouse
• Light Assist
• Light Dep
• Large Scale NFT w/ multiple zones running different nutrient lines & recipes
• Automated EC Dosing & pH management (freshly calibrated)
• H2O chiller system in operation - water temps at constant 68 degrees day & night
• Resi Size - 350+/- gallons
• Nutrients - mostly GenHydro FloraDuo & Cutting Edge Solutions
• DNA - various

Ok... so now you got an idea of my background & system....

PROBLEMS:

• Note: keep in mind that I have many zones independent of each other running at the same time. All variables are controlled so it is very easy to pinpoint cause/effect.
• Algae - normally, with NFT, eliminating light pollution in the NFT system is impossible. Algae will grow, and it's not the biggest problem in the world. But it has been an issue with clogging my feed tubes. So I would like to run a "dead resi", as in, full synthetic nutrients and no living organic matter in my system. That way the tubes stay clean and flowing properly. Im spending way too much time unclogging the tubes on a weekly basis with slime/algae that builds up over a few weeks.
• H2O2 - I attempted to use peroxide (alchemist brand) at a dosage rate of 500ml to the 350 gallon system. This is appx 1/4 the recommended dose. Within 5 minutes 1100 freshly transplanted baby plants wilted and died. I contacted the makers of the product and they said that was about 10x the dosage rate they would use on live plants and that their label specifically only recommends to use as a sterilization agent in between grow cycles. The label actually says that it can be used every four days. When I mentioned this to their rep, he began to stumble on his words. Needless to say, I no longer feel comfortable using this product for anything but sterilization in between grow cycles.
• Physan 20 - my next attempt at preventative management of the algae was to add Physan 20. It worked well at sterilization of the system (killing off any algae prior to flushing the system). I then added it again to a new zone of freshly transplanted babies. I did so at a rate of 2 tablespoons per 350 gallon system. This resulted in the babies wilting and developing a white slime/sludge at the roots. See attached picture, you can see the before & after. Nearly every feed tube was clogged with this same matter, way worse than any algae outbreak I've seen 6-7 weeks into a run.
• System is fully flushed as to remove the Physan 20
• Beneficial Bacteria - Botanicare Hydroguard was then added to the system to heal the roots (assuming the slime is root rot of some sort?) at a dosage rate of 1 liter / 350 gallon system.

SOLUTIONS?

• I need a long term solution to algae management, while also understanding sterilization, beneficial bacteria, and enzymes. Any and all input is welcome.
• Physan 20 - where did I go wrong here? Two different grow shops told me this product was completely safe to use with living plants.
• Botanicare Hydroguard or GenHydro DEFGUARD - both are Beneficial Bacteria (same active ingredient: Bacillus Amyloliquefaciens) to different degrees of potency. It is my understanding that these will help get my babies back to good root health. Correct me if I am wrong.
• Cannazym - I picked up some CANNA Cannazyme but it is my understanding that Enzyme products work best with organic nutrients / soil type systems. Being that I am trying to run a pure water culture system with a "dead resi" of purely synthetic nutrients, enzymes are not the long term solution Im looking for although they would attack the algae would they not?
• GenHydro FloraShield - It is my understanding that this is a sterilization product made up of Beneficial Bacteria that is safe to use with living plants, throughout each grow cycle, as well as a good product for sterilization after a system flush. Im inclined to use a full gallon of FloraShield per 350 gallon system on a weekly basis in between each reservoir flush/exchange. Could this be my long term solution to algae, as well as keeping my feed tubes clean of organic buildup, all while not killing my babies in the process.

thankyou for your help.

High phosphate and silica are 2 things algae thrive on. Identifying the algae could help in treating it but it may also not even be algae it could be cynobacteria.

As you said stay away from organics even a tiny amount can cause bacteria blooms. Even just the amount of root decay I see.

Honestly if I were to do a nft system I would go sterile 100%. With hydrogen peroxide. Using 29% food grade at 1ml per gallon and no more than 2ml per gal and treat every 3 days. It's important to dilute the hydrogen peroxide by at least 10 times before adding because like acid it will damage the roots if concentrated.

Hydrogaurd is great for root rot but key to beating it beside that is washing the roots in either chlorinated tap water of hydrogen peroxide at 2ml per gal and gently use your fingers to remove the slime and decaying root matter. So this every 24hs for 3 days minimum no matter if they look better or not. So if was running sterile and got root rot I would wait 3 day after last dose of hydrogen peroxide and then add hydrogaurd and not add it back until the root rot was gone. Then go back to sterile but in a sterile system if you get root rot your doing it wrong.

Another option is to run an inline UVC light either all the time or on a timer. It's will destroy spores but I believe i read somewhere it may cause some iron to precipitate out. How much or if it's a concern I can't say. I have used these to treat cynobacteria in aquariums and it's the only 100% effective thing I have used. Usually takes about 3 days to completely wipe it out. I have used h2o2 with mixed results but i could not use the dosage needed with live fish in there.


Not sure if this helps ya but if you have any questions just let me know

 

[Aqua Man]

Oh and @chemistry said those light leaks need fixed

 

[RFT]

High phosphate and silica are 2 things algae thrive on. Identifying the algae could help in treating it but it may also not even be algae it could be cynobacteria.

Not pictured is the green algae that started this whole mess. Totally natural. Not affecting quality or yield. But a nuisance I'd like to eradicate.

As you said stay away from organics even a tiny amount can cause bacteria blooms. Even just the amount of root decay I see.

The root decay you see in the pics happened over a 12 hour period. It is something I've never had until adding the Physan 20.

Although, we recently had some power outtages and the resi temps did drop down into the 40's. And the backup generator did fail a few times at night (for only a couple hours - during the day, the pumps can fail for up to 2 hours before wilting sets in on this system), but the roots never entirely dried out because it was night time. Again, I have multiple zones side x side. The zone with the new babies & physan 20 is what had the issue. So these external variables have somewhat been eliminated as the culprit.

Short term problem - something killed these roots

Long term problem - I need a product that can keep algae at bay while also not killing my plants

Honestly if I were to do a nft system I would go sterile 100%. With hydrogen peroxide. Using 29% food grade at 1ml per gallon and no more than 2ml per gal and treat every 3 days. It's important to dilute the hydrogen peroxide by at least 10 times before adding because like acid it will damage the roots if concentrated.

I did all that. At a rate much lower than you are suggesting. It killed 1100 plants in a matter of minutes. Im not about to go down that road again. H2O2 is far too unstable a compound.

Hydrogaurd is great for root rot but key to beating it beside that is washing the roots in either chlorinated tap water of hydrogen peroxide at 2ml per gal and gently use your fingers to remove the slime and decaying root matter. So this every 24hs for 3 days minimum no matter if they look better or not. So if was running sterile and got root rot I would wait 3 day after last dose of hydrogen peroxide and then add hydrogaurd and not add it back until the root rot was gone. Then go back to sterile but in a sterile system if you get root rot your doing it wrong.

It's going to be sterile to a degree. After all, Im in a greenhouse, so the elements will be sending spores my way on a constant basis. I need to create conditions they do not like.

For example, spraying for PM or burning sulfur is pissing in the wind. Whereas running high powered circulation fans & dehumidifiers keeping the humidity below 55% RH is creating conditions that the PM simply cannot survive in, despite my plants being covered in natural PM spores and PM likely being systemic in the DNA. Yet I dont get PM.

I would like to battle the algae in the same fashion. 100% sterile is not possible. 100% light elimination is not possible. I need a additive that will keep the nutrient solution inhospitable to algae, be it via beneficial bacteria or enzymes.

Being that the NFT system is well circulated & aerated, the root rot will take care of itself with the help of the Hydroguard. The problem is what killed those roots in the first place, the Physan 20. I dont trust that stuff anymore.

Another option is to run an inline UVC light either all the time or on a timer. It's will destroy spores but I believe i read somewhere it may cause some iron to precipitate out. How much or if it's a concern I can't say. I have used these to treat cynobacteria in aquariums and it's the only 100% effective thing I have used. Usually takes about 3 days to completely wipe it out. I have used h2o2 with mixed results but i could not use the dosage needed with live fish in there.

The UVC light option is not possible with my system/setup unfortunately. I've explored adding it.

Not sure if this helps ya but if you have any questions just let me know

Anything helps at this point. Your thoughts on going with FloraShield?

 

[RFT]

Oh and @chemistry said those light leaks need fixed

Not possible in a commercial NFT system like this.

Most just live with the algae and pay it no attention.

But I hate the way it keeps clogging the feed tubing. Eventually it's going to get some plants killed.

 

[RFT]

Plant your cuttings in a pot that suits the holes in your system, this will sort your light problem, and don't let your root ball sit in the wet, and the gunge will disappear.

We've explored that option. Not possible with this system. Creates other issues I wont go into detail on, but trust me, we cannot use mini net pots to hold the plants for our particular situation.

There are other light leak issues that are not just from the holes. No way around it.

I've been running this NFT system (lots of harvests) without any issues having the root ball sit in the wet. Moving water is aerated water and not a problem or cause of root rot. I'd like to please stay on topic. The merits or viability of NFT type systems is not up for debate.

Im hoping to understand where I went wrong with the Physan 20. And how to replace it with a different product that can help me fight the algae.

Yes, in a perfect world, eliminating the light leaks & having a pristine sterile indoor room would solve everything. But this isnt indoor. And NFT inherently is going to have many light leaks.

 

[Aqua Man]

Not pictured is the green algae that started this whole mess. Totally natural. Not affecting quality or yield. But a nuisance I'd like to eradicate.



The root decay you see in the pics happened over a 12 hour period. It is something I've never had until adding the Physan 20.

Although, we recently had some power outtages and the resi temps did drop down into the 40's. And the backup generator did fail a few times at night (for only a couple hours - during the day, the pumps can fail for up to 2 hours before wilting sets in on this system), but the roots never entirely dried out because it was night time. Again, I have multiple zones side x side. The zone with the new babies & physan 20 is what had the issue. So these external variables have somewhat been eliminated as the culprit.

Short term problem - something killed these roots

Long term problem - I need a product that can keep algae at bay while also not killing my plants



I did all that. At a rate much lower than you are suggesting. It killed 1100 plants in a matter of minutes. Im not about to go down that road again. H2O2 is far too unstable a compound.



It's going to be sterile to a degree. After all, Im in a greenhouse, so the elements will be sending spores my way on a constant basis. I need to create conditions they do not like.

For example, spraying for PM or burning sulfur is pissing in the wind. Whereas running high powered circulation fans & dehumidifiers keeping the humidity below 55% RH is creating conditions that the PM simply cannot survive in, despite my plants being covered in natural PM spores and PM likely being systemic in the DNA. Yet I dont get PM.

I would like to battle the algae in the same fashion. 100% sterile is not possible. 100% light elimination is not possible. I need a additive that will keep it at bay.

Being that the NFT system is well circulated & aerated, the root rot will take care of itself with the help of the Hydroguard. The problem is what killed those roots in the first place, the Physan 20. I dont trust that stuff anymore.



The UVC light option is not possible with my system/setup unfortunately. I've explored adding it.



Anything helps at this point. Your thoughts on going with FloraShield?

Sorry never used it. When you added the h2o2 I was highly diluted right?

Anything that caused root damage can cause pythium to be able to invade. Could be physical damage, chemical burn, temp stress. Hard to say

I used an algae scrubber to eliminate it but that won't work in hydro it's counter productive. Increased flow may help but it won't stop it.

I only see 2 ways. Eliminate it's ability to feed. Cut out light or food source you said light is not an option and we'll you can't cut out nutrients.

Or make it inhospitable. UVC kills its reproductive capabilities but not an option.

Any chemical additives that make it inhospitable for algae will also affect the plants. So the key is dosage... Have to find the dosage that the plants can handle but the algae cannot.

Those are the only options I can see. There may be more but sorry I can't think of any.

Wish I could be more help man

 

[chemistry]

The roots in the photo you posted are not dead, what you have is a slime mould, due to not having tightly fitting pots to block out the light that's leaking into your system, and it's not interested in your plants roots, it's feasting on the wet grow medium your plant is growing in, it loves a bit of sun, but what will kill the roots is suffocation due to the mould, this is why you can wash it off, if your problem was root rot, you would not wash it off.

 

[Aqua Man]

The roots in the photo you posted are not dead, what you have is a slime mould, due to not having tightly fitting pots to block out the light that's leaking into your system, and it's not interested in your plants roots, it's feasting on the wet grow medium your plant is growing in, it loves a bit of sun, but what will kill the roots is suffocation due to the mould, this is why you can wash it off, if your problem was root rot, you would not wash it off.

Well you kinda can pythium feeds on decaying roots and you right actually penetrates the root not just sits on top. The damage is causes kills root tissue which is decaying organics and that feeds bacteria so that slime you are seeing is a combination of pythium and bacteria and yes it's absolutely important to clean it off.

 

[RFT]

Sorry never used it. When you added the h2o2 I was highly diluted right?

Yes.

Anything that caused root damage can cause pythium to be able to invade. Could be physical damage, chemical burn, temp stress. Hard to say

Over fertilization could kill roots like this? I've never seen that happen before. But I wouldnt doubt it.

I used an algae scrubber to eliminate it but that won't work in hydro it's counter productive. Increased flow may help but it won't stop it.

Increased flow doesnt fix it. These feed tubes are small. The alagae just finds a way to grab hold and grow.

I only see 2 ways. Eliminate it's ability to feed. Cut out light or food source you said light is not an option and we'll you can't cut out nutrients.

Or make it inhospitable. UVC kills its reproductive capabilities but not an option.

Correct.

Any chemical additives that make it inhospitable for algae will also affect the plants. So the key is dosage... Have to find the dosage that the plants can handle but the algae cannot.

Those are the only options I can see. There may be more but sorry I can't think of any.

Correct.

Which is why Im looking at enzymes (Cannazym) or beneficial bacteria (FloraShield) as long term options. But I have no experience with these and Im unsure if they are the solution. Hopefully someone can chime in.

Wish I could be more help man

You are being helpful. Anyone reading your responses and my replies is getting a more specific picture of the scenario than if they just read my initial post.

 

[RFT]

The roots in the photo you posted are not dead, what you have is a slime mould, due to not having tightly fitting pots to block out the light that's leaking into your system, and it's not interested in your plants roots, it's feasting on the wet grow medium your plant is growing in, it loves a bit of sun, but what will kill the roots is suffocation due to the mould, this is why you can wash it off, if your problem was root rot, you would not wash it off.

I'll say it again, I've been running this NFT system for a long time. Long enough that if this mold was the issue, it wouldve been there on day one. I've never seen it before. Despite many full cycles & harvests.

It only showed up immediately after using the Physan 20.

 

[Aqua Man]

Yes.



Over fertilization could kill roots like this? I've never seen that happen before. But I wouldnt doubt it.



Increased flow doesnt fix it. These feed tubes are small. The alagae just finds a way to grab hold and grow.



Correct.



Correct.

Which is why Im looking at enzymes (Cannazym) or beneficial bacteria (FloraShield) as long term options. But I have no experience with these and Im unsure if they are the solution. Hopefully someone can chime in.




You are being helpful. Anyone reading your responses and my replies is getting a more specific picture of the scenario than if they just read my initial post.

I'm curious to see how this turns out please keep us up to date.

 

[chemistry]

Cannazyme is the way to go, or any of the enzymes.

 

[RFT]

Well you kinda can pythium feeds on decaying roots and you right actually penetrates the root not just sits on top. The damage is causes kills root tissue which is decaying organics and that feeds bacteria so that slime you are seeing is a combination of pythium and bacteria and yes it's absolutely important to clean it off.

We're getting off topic.

This issue with the mold or dying roots is new. Since using the Physan 20, which is supposed to kill molds and other bacteria. So it is most likely dead root matter. But even if it it is not root matter, and indeed it is mold, it is not a result of the light.

There are several zones all running side by side. Identical. Only difference is where the Physan 20 was used. This mold (if it's mold) does not exist in any of the other zones. I cannot make that any more clear.

 

[RFT]

Cannazyme is the way to go, or any of the enzymes.

For battling the algae?

What is your opinion on the FloraShield?

 

[chemistry]

For battling the algae?

What is your opinion on the FloraShield?

For battling everything, root rot, algae, slime mould, but if you carry on using bleaches, then forget enzymes, they don't work side by side. Not used Florashield, tried other brand types, but I found it just made things worse, so I set out to find a balance, stumbled apon Cannazyme, and never looked back.

 

[RFT]

For battling everything, root rot, algae, slime mould, but if you carry on using bleaches, then forget enzymes, they don't work side by side. Not used Florashield, tried other brand types, but I found it just made things worse, so I set out to find a balance, stumbled apon Cannazyme, and never looked back.

I haven’t gone down the bleach route yet. Never seemed to be a good long term solution with living plants LOL.

Beneficial Bacterias (ie FloraShield) made things worse huh? Interesting. I wonder why.

Some new info....

Upon further investigation of my NFT return channels, this sludge is apparent. It looks like dead algae. The Physan 20 did its job and killed a lot of organic matter. Organic matter that has yet to fully be flushed out of the entire system. And thus is getting clogged in the feed tubes. And also maybe building up on the roots? Yes, a slime of dead matter? And sorta choking out the roots, thus wilting? But not actually dead roots. The enzymes would eat this stuff up right?

In addition, this tan colored sludge is building up in the NFT channels. It’s something I’ve never seen before. Clearly a result of the Physan? But what is it? It feels very similar to the buildup on the roots. More dead organic matter?

See attached pics.

 

[RFT]

I suppose this scenario is quite possible..

- abundance of algae matter residual from last grow cycle
- Physan20 did its job and killed all algae
- leftover dead algae matter is the tan colored slime we see in pics
- it begins to cake itself everywhere with nowhere to go
- buildup on roots starts to choke them out (score one for @chemistry)
- I mistakenly blame Physan 20 for doing it’s job

- Physan20 works, but Enzymes or Beneficial Bacteria would be better solution longterm because they eat this dead matter as opposed to letting it build up?

 

[chemistry]

Enzymes would eat the slime and other debris like dead roots, the green algae is down to light getting into your NFT and feeding on your nuits, your problem is doubled by the fact that you have white fitting which collects light, thus gives the algae the ideal home, and this is what blocks your feeder pipes.