In memory of DD: How to build an MPB revisited.

[sedate]

I've never had the pleasure of meeting him, nor, really had a good chance to look at his system in detail. Dealing with his legend is a lot like... well, like dealing with a legend! You get a lot of hype, but the substance has been hard for me to find.

This is why I appreciate Cap's efforts here to shed some light on DD's techniques, so I can see them for myself with some hope of objectivity.

Tty I can assure you that this system has left some Farmers heartbroken and broke. It's a motherfucker even at 2lbs a site when u look at the requisite imputs, space, and time (especially vegging in system, jeeze) to get to harvest.

 

[ttystikk]

Tty I can assure you that this system has left some Farmers heartbroken and broke. It's a motherfucker even at 2lbs a site when u look at the requisite imputs, space, and time (especially vegging in system, jeeze) to get to harvest.

I believe you. My interest in seeing his system in operation is not to blithely copy it, but rather to study its strengths- and weaknesses- to help further my own understanding of hydroponic system design.

Others have echoed your thoughts above about his setup. I'm thinking there has to be some component, trick or approach that merits closer investigation, or it would not have achieved such legendary status. Then again, it's also possible that whatever made his system great back in the day is now in broad use and thus isn't as special or unique as it once was.

 

[El Cerebro]

who here besides Cap continues to kill it in mpbs run after run?

 

[sedate]

I believe you. My interest in seeing his system in operation is not to blithely copy it, but rather to study its strengths- and weaknesses- to help further my own understanding of hydroponic system design.

Others have echoed your thoughts above about his setup. I'm thinking there has to be some competent, trick or approach that merits closer investigation, or it would not have achieved such legendary status. Then again, it's also possible that whatever made his system great back in the day is now in broad use and thus isn't as special or unique as it once was.

Um. To my mind the 'legend' comes from savvy self promotion at a time when few growers had experience with such large plants - particulalry the 4lbs/site yield claim. Remember the mpb dates to 2009! The north american transition to small numbers of large plants was just beginning when the system appeared.

Farmers were salivating to ape it.

But everyone that copied it either had pythium at week 5 or ended up with a finished run that was less than half of dd's claims - regardless of strain choice. And then of course dd was completely absent to explain things.

It seems to me the uc does a similar job in all functional respects - nevermind folks have continued to fashion other effective large scale rdwc systems.

It is however a fascinating system for study and design. This is true, no doubt.

And Capulators execution is gorgeous. :)

 

[sedate]

who here besides Cap continues to kill it in mpbs run after run?

^^^^ that would be my question.

Where is bossman these days?

 

[ttystikk]

^^^^ that would be my question.

Where is bossman these days?

My question is more specific; why is Cap killin' it where so many others have failed? The obvious guess is that it has to do with his bennies, but has anyone tried to validate this?

 

[ttystikk]

Um. To my mind the 'legend' comes from savvy self promotion at a time when few growers had experience with such large plants - particulalry the 4lbs/site yield claim. Remember the mpb dates to 2009! The north american transition to small numbers of large plants was just beginning when the system appeared.

Farmers wewerere salivating to ape it.

But everyone that copied it either had pythium at week 5 or ended up with a finished run that was less than half of dd's claims - regardless of strain choice. And then of course dd was completely absent to explain things.

It seems to me the uc does a similar job in all functional respects - nevermind folks have continued to fashion other effective large scale rdwc systems.

It is however a fascinating system for study and design. This is true, no doubt.

And Capulators execution is gorgeous. :)

By the time I got here, DD was already gone and I was unable to get answers about his system. So, I studied and redesigned Current Culture's UC with a proper tailbucket, bulkhead fittings, and a topfeed irrigation system over chowmix in net pot bucket lids. Better and much, much cheaper- and it's so easily reconfigurable that I'm glad I went this route.

That said and as happy as I am with my current setup, I'm always looking for better ways to do things.

 

[Capulator]

Cap is that month and a half veg time in that system? or do you veg in a seperate area and move them into that room to keep the flower cycle constant ?

Lots of guys had pythium prohlems with that system ever had issues?

Yea doubled is a polarizing cat. It seems that many Farmers built out his system to find his claimed results not very reproducible . . Like guys with mad experience and good genetics could get 1/3 maybe 1/2 his claimed yields.

I veg in a separate room and then veg them again when I move them for a week or two because of the massive amount of light the plants need to get roots out before they will start growing, so they stall for a week. Then they will put out new growth and start taking off quickly.

I have not had pythium in the system (knock on wood). I have had stem rot but I believe this was from fungus gnats spreading a bacteria coupled with overwatering. DD was top feeding the rockwool 24/7. I do not do this anymore. There are a few things I have tweaked since I built his DIY based on my own observations.

1) I use chow mix in my net pot. I found that plants in chow are much more resistant to root issues compared to plants in a 4 or 6" cube surrounded by hydroton. I do not like mixed media. The rockwool takes far longer to dray out than the hydroton so this setup makes no sense to me. I changed it after all the plants in rockwool got stem rot once cycle, and all the plants in chow (in the same system) did not.

2) I downsized my main drain so that it is full when the system is running. This keeps the pipe clean. No build up at a the waterline. My drain is a 2", and he was using 4".

3) I need bigger drains. He had (2) 1" drains, and mine get clogged with roots at which point I have to tear them out, which leads to stress and possible infection.

4) I keep my chiller at 64 degrees, and I run a live res with bennies not sterile.

5) I feed like 1/2 of what he was feeding with AN.

6) I only water by hand once a day when I move the plants in to the big room. I killed off my top feed. It is unecessary after a week when the roots hit the water. They will wick the water up on their own. No need to top feed. I do crown feed concentrated EWC/benny tea 1x per week just enough to saturate the chow.

7) I changed the 10" net pot to a 3 gallon EZ root aeration frame.

8) I suspended my cages from the ceiling, and I use a lot of yo yos.


His strain could easily have done 4#. He was working with that g-13 monster. The colas in his pics were all the size of wine bottles. I have hit 2# with small yielding strains so I don't think he was bullshitting. Look at the numbers DS is posting in his quantum grow. Very similar and nobody is calling him out.

I do not think there were any more failures with this system than there are with any other RDWC. It's not easy and it's not forgiving.

The best advice DD gave was to run the same strain for a year.

 

[Capulator]

^^^^ that would be my question.

Where is bossman these days?

Poor bossman got his new spot shut down by the DA, but I bet he is still crushing it somewhere.

Giddeon was hittin 3+ averages. Dizzle killed it for 7 runs before he switch to chow and never looked back. The rot plagued him once he got it, and he was trying to run sterile.

Mine shit the bed a couple times with the stem rot, but I kept truckin and solved the problem.

Gettogro got some rot and powered through, and now has by far some of the most epic indoor plants I have seen.

And some people couldn't succeed at first, and gave up to try their hand at the 'ol "guaranteed harvest"- which IMHO doesn't exist... ever.


RDWC is not for the faint of heart. It's super involved. It will produce results, and it's fun because you really get to know a plant and how it uses nutrients. Once you have been doing it a while, it actually gets easy. weeks 4-9 I just hang a few yo yos. I do my res changeouts weekly and sometimes bi weekly. I top off with just water, and pH daily... sometimes 2x a day.

 

[Capulator]

Tty I can assure you that this system has left some Farmers heartbroken and broke. It's a motherfucker even at 2lbs a site when u look at the requisite imputs, space, and time (especially vegging in system, jeeze) to get to harvest.

At 2# a site you are stoked. Trust me. That works out to roughly 2# per light, but with way less plants.

 

[ttystikk]

At 2# a site you are stoked. Trust me. That works out to roughly 2# per light, but with way less plants.

My inside out system runs two plants, each in a 10" netpot over a 27 gallon tuffbox rdwc site. Each plant ScrOGs onto a vertical 25sq ft trellis. I'm shooting for 2# each from 2 plants around just a single thouie, but the plants will have the final say.

Thus far, veg is going well but of course it can't be rushed.

 

[Capulator]

6 weeks for veg?? That must inlcude your cloning time right? Veg time for me and others in MPB with 45 inch centers is a week tops. But that's starting from a 10 inch tall rooted plant. So 2 weeks total from a rooted cutting.

That includes cloning time yes. Also, it is 100% strain dependent. I am trying to set things up so there is no veg time at all in the flower room. Straight to flip.

 

[ttystikk]

That includes cloning time yes. Also, it is 100% strain dependent. I am trying to set things up so there is no veg time at all in the flower room. Straight to flip.

This will really help speed up crop times

 

[ttystikk]

This will really help speed up crop times

That includes cloning time yes. Also, it is 100% strain dependent. I am trying to set things up so there is no veg time at all in the flower room. Straight to flip.

IMHO, the most underrated reason for perpetual gardening is the ability to put the plants in the perfect environment for every stage of their life cycle. The veg stages are every bit as important to the final results as the bloom stages are, and you realize huge productivity gains- grams per day, for lack of a better metric- by segregating things completely. So, when your last veg stage delivers the plant, it should be bloom ready on the spot, so your *stunningly expensive* bloomroom can maximize your return on investment and run bloom cycles back to back, with no breaks or interruptions for 'preblooming'. Anything less is a process engineering nightmare- and is by definition a loss of productivity.

 

[applepie]

I will put together a list of all the components and pricing soon.



There won't be any plants in this thread, it will be strictly the build out (components and how to)

A newbie here awaiting patiently for the list of all the components and pricing... thank you for sharing, sir!

 

[Capulator]

A newbie here awaiting patiently for the list of all the components and pricing... thank you for sharing, sir!

What DD used:

DD: 10" net pot. I now use a 3 gallon EZ root aeration frame.

Tanks: http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/s...ipping-container-without-lid-23-1-2x15-1-2x12. We both use these, but I want bigger.

DD used Quick disconnect couplers for drains (2, 1") and feed (1, 1/2") : and . I suggest going bigger. feed: 3/4" or 1" and drains 2".

Air pump: 1 hi blo 80 for every 6 tanks. I use an alita 100 on 9 tanks. It's quieter. http://www.septicsolutions.net/store/alitalinear.htm (septic solutions for your air pumps is the way to go)

Air stones: I use a 12 inch alita air stone:

Feed pump: 600GPH per tank is THE MINIMUM you will need. I currently have 2 danner1800's coupled together, but will be replacing with a larger waterfall pump soon, and larger feeds.

Drain pipe: DD used 4", then 3". I use 2" because I want my drain pipe to be full so it doesn't collect film. I use 1" rubber tubing for drains, and I put them in 1" holes drilled on top of the drain pipe, then silicon.

Stands: I used these they are perfect. DD used upside down containers. . 20 bucks at home depot. attached the drain underneath with velcro straps.

DD used 2 70 pint dehueys. I do as well, only at lights off pretty much.

DD used a mini split and a window mount AC, I went with a monster 5 ton portable made by kwikool.

MOre to come I will edit in later.

 

[Capulator]

Here is an old pic prior to plumbing:

You will need at least 1/8" / ft of fall back to the main res. For a main res I use a 100 gallon stock tank from my local horse feed store. Cheap, buff, and effective.

 

[Capulator]

Here is a pic of my res in a little control room next door.

You will need a check valve coming from your feed pump, so in case of failure the water in the buckets don't drain back through the pump (through the feedline). I also installed a float valve to keep the tank full (I don't use anymore so I can measure how much the plants are drinking daily). What I need, and what I do not have installed yet is an overflow. A simple pipe on a bulkhead fitting near the top, and going to a drain, would keep you from having a flood if your check valve stopped working or if you left the hose on while filling up like a true fucking stoner (done it).

You can see the 2 danners coupled together for the 3/4" feed, and then the 1800 danner for the top feed (which I no longer use at all). You can also see where I cut the res to accomodate the 2" drain. DD would put a window screen over his res to catch any debris (roots, hydroton etc)... I use a stocking slipped over the open end of the pipe and that works perfectly. .

 

[Capulator]

Here is a pic of the finished plumbing.

1/2" feed as close to the bottom of the bucket as possible. (2) 1" drains. On the other side of the bucket there is a bulkhead up top with 1/2" pvc that elbows down and feeds the airstone. If you look at the tanks in the back ground I actually put the airstone feed on the same side as the drains and feed.

The feed line and air lines are on valves to make sure every bucket is even Steven. You can see that the 3/4" main feed line in pvc reduces down to a 1/2" tube on a barb fitting.

 

[applepie]

OMG thank you so much for the pics and list! I have one more month or so to finish with current 1st grow, therefore, I need to plan ahead... Thank you very much for sharing your expertise sir!